Author Topic: The Smithsonian Intolerance  (Read 11581 times)

Colossus_500

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The Smithsonian Intolerance
« on: June 11, 2007, 09:12:12 AM »
Smithsonian: Religious Scientists Prohibited
by Lawrence Ford

“Are you a religious person?”

This question is not allowed on job applications and it is prohibited during job interviews. And regardless of the truth, the religious affiliation of an individual cannot be used to deny employment, except perhaps in church work.

However, the Smithsonian Institution, an agency of the United States government, has been using this question to penalize one of its most gifted scientists, Dr. Richard Sternberg.

A Research Associate at the National Museum of Natural History, Dr. Sternberg is an evolutionary scientist with two doctorates in biology, one in molecular evolution and the other in theoretical biology. In addition to his research work at the Smithsonian, he served as managing editor of the peer-reviewed Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington.

During his oversight of this journal, Dr. Sternberg accepted for publication an article titled “The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories” (http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2177)by Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, a Cambridge-educated scientist. Publication was accepted only after passing the required peer-review process by other scientists. Dr. Meyer’s article, though highly academic in nature, suggested that Intelligent Design could better solve the biological problems currently under scrutiny.

Publication of Meyer’s article, however, sparked a firestorm of internal controversy that resulted in discriminatory harassment of Dr. Sternberg by senior Smithsonian scientists and administrators. So defaming were these actions that a congressional oversight committee investigated the claims and publicly released its findings in December 2006 titled "Intolerance and the Politicization of Science at the Smithsonian: Smithsonian's Top Officials Permit the Demotion and Harrassment of Scientist Skeptical of Darwinian Evolution." (http://www.souder.house.gov/_files/IntoleranceandthePoliticizationofScienceattheSmithsonian.pdf)

Included in the investigation report are emails between Smithsonian officials regarding Dr. Sternberg’s situation and how to terminate his relationship with the museum. The Smithsonian even enlisted the help of Eugenia Scott, Director of the National Center for Science Education, to “monitor Sternberg’s outside activities.”

In the report summary, congressional investigators concluded:

The staff investigation has uncovered compelling evidence that Dr. Sternberg’s civil and constitutional rights were violated by Smithsonian officials. Moreover, the agency’s top officials—Secretary Lawrence Small and Deputy Secretary Sheila Burke—have shown themselves completely unwilling to rectify the wrongs that were done or even to genuinely investigate the wrongdoing. Most recently, Burke and Small have allowed NMNH officials to demote Dr. Sternberg to the position of Research Collaborator, despite past assurances from Burke that Dr. Sternberg was a “Research Associate in good standing” and would be given “full and fair consideration” for his request to renew his Research Associateship. The failure of Small and Burke to take any action against such discrimination raises serious questions about the Smithsonian’s willingness to protect the free speech and civil rights of scientists who may hold dissenting views on topics such as biological evolution.

The Sternberg case is actually a couple of years old, though the congressional oversight committee just completed its investigation. And Dr. Sternberg is not a creationist by any means. He simply allowed a non-Darwinian to publish a scientific paper in an academic journal. For that sin, his career is under attack. Read Dr. Sternberg’s own defense of his actions at rsternberg.net.

In a Wall Street Journal opinion piece titled “The Branding of a Heretic,” (http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110006220)the article that originally brought widespread attention to this case, David Klinghoffer comments on the Smithsonian’s handling of the Sternberg matter with these revealing words:

Darwinism…is an essential ingredient in secularism, that aggressive, quasi-religious faith without a deity. The Sternberg case seems, in many ways, an instance of one religion persecuting a rival, demanding loyalty from anyone who enters one of its churches—like the National Museum of Natural History.

It’s clear from his article that Mr. Klinghoffer is not a creationist. But his description of Darwinian evolution as a “quasi-religious faith without a deity” reveals an important reality of the debate between evolution and creation: both viewpoints, while working with science, are ultimately matters of faith.

Creationists admit this. Evolutionists will not.

Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 10:45:28 AM »
Smithsonian: Religious Scientists Prohibited
by Lawrence Ford

“Are you a religious person?”

This question is not allowed on job applications and it is prohibited during job interviews. And regardless of the truth, the religious affiliation of an individual cannot be used to deny employment, except perhaps in church work.

However, the Smithsonian Institution, an agency of the United States government, has been using this question to penalize one of its most gifted scientists, Dr. Richard Sternberg.

A Research Associate at the National Museum of Natural History, Dr. Sternberg is an evolutionary scientist with two doctorates in biology, one in molecular evolution and the other in theoretical biology. In addition to his research work at the Smithsonian, he served as managing editor of the peer-reviewed Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington.

During his oversight of this journal, Dr. Sternberg accepted for publication an article titled “The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories” (http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2177)by Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, a Cambridge-educated scientist. Publication was accepted only after passing the required peer-review process by other scientists. Dr. Meyer’s article, though highly academic in nature, suggested that Intelligent Design could better solve the biological problems currently under scrutiny.

Publication of Meyer’s article, however, sparked a firestorm of internal controversy that resulted in discriminatory harassment of Dr. Sternberg by senior Smithsonian scientists and administrators. So defaming were these actions that a congressional oversight committee investigated the claims and publicly released its findings in December 2006 titled "Intolerance and the Politicization of Science at the Smithsonian: Smithsonian's Top Officials Permit the Demotion and Harrassment of Scientist Skeptical of Darwinian Evolution." (http://www.souder.house.gov/_files/IntoleranceandthePoliticizationofScienceattheSmithsonian.pdf)

Included in the investigation report are emails between Smithsonian officials regarding Dr. Sternberg’s situation and how to terminate his relationship with the museum. The Smithsonian even enlisted the help of Eugenia Scott, Director of the National Center for Science Education, to “monitor Sternberg’s outside activities.”

In the report summary, congressional investigators concluded:

The staff investigation has uncovered compelling evidence that Dr. Sternberg’s civil and constitutional rights were violated by Smithsonian officials. Moreover, the agency’s top officials—Secretary Lawrence Small and Deputy Secretary Sheila Burke—have shown themselves completely unwilling to rectify the wrongs that were done or even to genuinely investigate the wrongdoing. Most recently, Burke and Small have allowed NMNH officials to demote Dr. Sternberg to the position of Research Collaborator, despite past assurances from Burke that Dr. Sternberg was a “Research Associate in good standing” and would be given “full and fair consideration” for his request to renew his Research Associateship. The failure of Small and Burke to take any action against such discrimination raises serious questions about the Smithsonian’s willingness to protect the free speech and civil rights of scientists who may hold dissenting views on topics such as biological evolution.

The Sternberg case is actually a couple of years old, though the congressional oversight committee just completed its investigation. And Dr. Sternberg is not a creationist by any means. He simply allowed a non-Darwinian to publish a scientific paper in an academic journal. For that sin, his career is under attack. Read Dr. Sternberg’s own defense of his actions at rsternberg.net.

In a Wall Street Journal opinion piece titled “The Branding of a Heretic,” (http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110006220)the article that originally brought widespread attention to this case, David Klinghoffer comments on the Smithsonian’s handling of the Sternberg matter with these revealing words:

Darwinism…is an essential ingredient in secularism, that aggressive, quasi-religious faith without a deity. The Sternberg case seems, in many ways, an instance of one religion persecuting a rival, demanding loyalty from anyone who enters one of its churches—like the National Museum of Natural History.

It’s clear from his article that Mr. Klinghoffer is not a creationist. But his description of Darwinian evolution as a “quasi-religious faith without a deity” reveals an important reality of the debate between evolution and creation: both viewpoints, while working with science, are ultimately matters of faith.

Creationists admit this. Evolutionists will not.


That's outrageous.  Talk about paranoia.  Common characteristic of these anti-religious zealots. 

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2007, 09:25:26 AM »
That's outrageous.  Talk about paranoia.  Common characteristic of these anti-religious zealots. 
I know.  Yet, we're the zealots in their minds.   ::)

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2007, 06:22:46 AM »
I don't see zealotry.  I see a scientist who was employed by the Smithsonian and made a decent living but permitted his personal beliefs to corrupt his professional work.

The reason that Intelligent Design is condemned by scientists is b/c it is just the "god of gaps" rearing its head again.

Here is a rather vulgar explanation:  We can't explain x easily or adequately with the scientific method so God must be the cause/organizer of x.

That's not science.  That's not even an attempt at science.  That is surrender.

I still would like to see one supernatural act occuring in modern times.  It doesn't happen b/c the supernatural exists in imagination.

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2007, 10:53:58 AM »
I don't see zealotry.  I see a scientist who was employed by the Smithsonian and made a decent living but permitted his personal beliefs to corrupt his professional work.

The reason that Intelligent Design is condemned by scientists is b/c it is just the "god of gaps" rearing its head again.

Here is a rather vulgar explanation:  We can't explain x easily or adequately with the scientific method so God must be the cause/organizer of x.

That's not science.  That's not even an attempt at science.  That is surrender.

I still would like to see one supernatural act occuring in modern times.  It doesn't happen b/c the supernatural exists in imagination.

The man accepted a peer reviewed article in a journal he oversees.  Hardly sounds like personal beliefs corrupting professional work.  It is nothing more than paranoid anti-religious extremists harassing the guy, just like Congress said.   

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2007, 11:21:19 AM »
The man accepted a peer reviewed article in a journal he oversees.  Hardly sounds like personal beliefs corrupting professional work.  It is nothing more than paranoid anti-religious extremists harassing the guy, just like Congress said.   
Are you referring to the gasbag republican majority Congress/US office of special counsel that ran the investigation? 

Sternberg did NOT follow the proper procedure for peer review of Meyer's article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sternberg_peer_review_controversy#The_peer_review_process

"Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history."
http://www.biolsocwash.org/id_statement.html

This is just another opportunity for christians to play the victim card again by pointing out that, gosh darn it, it's been 2000 years and we are still being persecuted for the most minor things re our beliefs...

Sorry, but the article was unpublishable crapola and Intelligent Design is still not science.  It is still the god of gaps.

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 11:34:33 AM »
Are you referring to the gasbag republican majority Congress/US office of special counsel that ran the investigation? 

Sternberg did NOT follow the proper procedure for peer review of Meyer's article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sternberg_peer_review_controversy#The_peer_review_process

"Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history."
http://www.biolsocwash.org/id_statement.html

This is just another opportunity for christians to play the victim card again by pointing out that, gosh darn it, it's been 2000 years and we are still being persecuted for the most minor things re our beliefs...

Sorry, but the article was unpublishable crapola and Intelligent Design is still not science.  It is still the god of gaps.
::)
Evolution has no gaps?

Also, how would you explain the increase in the numbers of scientists flocking toward Intelligent Design, even quantum physicists if it's "condemned"?

Another question I have that you might know the answer to, Decker.  If education is all about building a well-rounded individual who can think objectively, why are school boards so adamant not to allow the teaching of an alternative thought such as intelligent design?  Are you familiar with the case in Pennsylvania where the school board (with the help of good ol' ACLU) fought to keep just a single paragragh at the beginning of a science book which spoke about intelligent design?  What's up with that?  If ever there was a best description of zealotry, I would think this fight would fit perfectly.   


Dos Equis

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 11:37:49 AM »
Are you referring to the gasbag republican majority Congress/US office of special counsel that ran the investigation? 

Sternberg did NOT follow the proper procedure for peer review of Meyer's article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sternberg_peer_review_controversy#The_peer_review_process

"Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history."
http://www.biolsocwash.org/id_statement.html

This is just another opportunity for christians to play the victim card again by pointing out that, gosh darn it, it's been 2000 years and we are still being persecuted for the most minor things re our beliefs...

Sorry, but the article was unpublishable crapola and Intelligent Design is still not science.  It is still the god of gaps.

I see.  So the oversight committee investigation is "gasbag," but wikipedia is not.  Did you read the report?  http://www.souder.house.gov/_files/IntoleranceandthePoliticizationofScienceattheSmithsonian.pdf

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 11:39:04 AM »
I think this is out and out discrimination. If this involved a minority group they would be screaming...

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 11:45:22 AM »
::)
Evolution has no gaps?

Also, how would you explain the increase in the numbers of scientists flocking toward Intelligent Design, even quantum physicists if it's "condemned"?

Another question I have that you might know the answer to, Decker.  If education is all about building a well-rounded individual who can think objectively, why are school boards so adamant not to allow the teaching of an alternative thought such as intelligent design?  Are you familiar with the case in Pennsylvania where the school board (with the help of good ol' ACLU) fought to keep just a single paragragh at the beginning of a science book which spoke about intelligent design?  What's up with that?  If ever there was a best description of zealotry, I would think this fight would fit perfectly.
Scientists are flocking to Intelligent Design?  Prove it.

It is not the place of publicly funded schools to proselytize to students about religion.  Intelligent Design is not an alternative to science b/c it is not science.  It is a religious conclusion not arrived at from the scientific method.  It does not belong in a science text. 

Tenuous or difficult explanations of phenomena should not be reduced to:  "God must have done it."

That is not science.

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2007, 11:48:52 AM »
I see.  So the oversight committee investigation is "gasbag," but wikipedia is not.  Did you read the report?  http://www.souder.house.gov/_files/IntoleranceandthePoliticizationofScienceattheSmithsonian.pdf
I read the first few pages.

And then I read that the case was dismissed b/c of lack of jurisdiction.

Did you read the part about Meyer's paper not going through the proper peer review process, thus rendering the debate moot?

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2007, 03:11:34 PM »
Scientists are flocking to Intelligent Design?  Prove it.
Actually, I think it would be more difficult for you to prove that encouragement to pursue the thought of ID/Creation vs. Evolution is moot.  You can start here though: www.intelligentdesignnetwork.org/links.htm, but alas, I am certain you will discredit the site.   ::)  Question: how do you explain the increase in debate betwee ID and Evolution?  Do yourself a favor and google Intelligent Design, bro.  There's plenty of information out there.  I would also respectfully ask you to admit that you're really not all that willing or interested to check into it.   :-\

It is not the place of publicly funded schools to proselytize to students about religion.  Intelligent Design is not an alternative to science b/c it is not science.  It is a religious conclusion not arrived at from the scientific method.  It does not belong in a science text. 
Intelligent Design does not proselytize in any way, shape, or form.  However, it does threaten the theory of Evolution, even more so, the funding of research towards Evolution.  You start messing with people's money and they get upset.  That's not even touching the surface of why there's so much intelorance towards the mindset of Intelligent Design. 

Tenuous or difficult explanations of phenomena should not be reduced to:  "God must have done it."

That is not science.
This statement alone speaks volumes of what level of objectivity that I feel is available in discussing this with you, bro.  Science is but the art of discovery.  I'm sorry, Decker, but to think that I exist due to a glob (where did the glob come from anyway) vs.  how ID explains it just makes more sense to me.  I guess I'm just ignorant like the rest of the "sheep".   ;)

What is science to you?  It's interesting that you have such a harsh view towards Intelligent Design, and what appears to be an even deeper dissent against the existance of God.

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2007, 06:43:02 AM »
Intelligent Design does not proselytize in any way, shape, or form.  However, it does threaten the theory of Evolution, even more so, the funding of research towards Evolution.  You start messing with people's money and they get upset.  That's not even touching the surface of why there's so much intelorance towards the mindset of Intelligent Design. 
This statement alone speaks volumes of what level of objectivity that I feel is available in discussing this with you, bro.  Science is but the art of discovery.  I'm sorry, Decker, but to think that I exist due to a glob (where did the glob come from anyway) vs.  how ID explains it just makes more sense to me.  I guess I'm just ignorant like the rest of the "sheep".   ;)

What is science to you?  It's interesting that you have such a harsh view towards Intelligent Design, and what appears to be an even deeper dissent against the existance of God.
Science to me is an epistemological practice--It's a way of validating hypotheses through a methodology called the scientific method.  If empirical evidence is not available then a claim that an analysis is science is hardpressed.  String theory suffers b/c it is not verifable under empirical analysis.  It is based on mathematical models.

I don't buy your 'ulterior motive' argument that scientists are on the take to insulate their research grants.  That is precisely why there are mechanisms, like peer review, in place to guard against arbitrary nonsense passed off as 'scientific inquiry', much like Intelligent Design Theory.

If you read one book this Summer, read The Mind of God by physicist Paul Davies.  Read about it here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_of_God

In short, by the very makeup of our logical reasoning, we are unable to comprehend a rational understanding of Ultimate Reality.  He concedes that `something fishy is going on' when looking at the conditions necessary for conscious life to arise in the context of random occurrence.  That's as close to Intelligent Design as I will get.

To me, any argument that goes beyond the above guidelines is religious proselytizing from true believers with a religious ax to grind.

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2007, 03:14:37 PM »
Science to me is an epistemological practice--It's a way of validating hypotheses through a methodology called the scientific method.  If empirical evidence is not available then a claim that an analysis is science is hardpressed.  String theory suffers b/c it is not verifable under empirical analysis.  It is based on mathematical models.
You used some might fancy words just to say that science is but the art of discovery, as I stated earlier.   :P  Any experiment must include some sort of tangible (dirt, light, etc.) for measurement.  I ask you, where do the tangibles come from?  You say goo, I say God.  Who's right?  Only time will tell. 
 
I don't buy your 'ulterior motive' argument that scientists are on the take to insulate their research grants.  That is precisely why there are mechanisms, like peer review, in place to guard against arbitrary nonsense passed off as 'scientific inquiry', much like Intelligent Design Theory.
So you don't buy it.  Does that make your opinion fact over mine?  Again, only time will tell.   :-\

If you read one book this Summer, read The Mind of God by physicist Paul Davies.  Read about it here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_of_God
I've got about 5 books to read through this summer, so I may not get to it until this fall (I have heard of Davies).  But, in return, I would ask you to read some of Alister McGrath's work (The Dawkins Delusion).  Read about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alister_McGrath
In short, by the very makeup of our logical reasoning, we are unable to comprehend a rational understanding of Ultimate Reality.  He concedes that `something fishy is going on' when looking at the conditions necessary for conscious life to arise in the context of random occurrence.  That's as close to Intelligent Design as I will get.

To me, any argument that goes beyond the above guidelines is religious proselytizing from true believers with a religious ax to grind.
While you're at it, you should check out some of Paul Copan's writings, specifically "True For You, But Not For Me".  Or better yet, check out some of Ravi Zacharias' work on his site (www.rzim.org).  Copan has written some articles on that site too http://rzim.org/resources/essay_arttext.php?id=3

I also noticed you totally skipped the first part of my last post.  Was that on purpose (unwilling to admit truth in what I said), or inadvertent? 

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2007, 06:34:38 AM »
I’m not trying to use ten dollar words to impress you.  “Epistemology” is the study of the validity of knowledge.  How do we determine if knowledge is valid in the realm of science?  We have the scientific method.  Your “art of discovery” claim isn’t adequate to describe what science is really about.  Pre-teens discover their “special purpose” all the time, that’s not science.

Show me the ‘tangibles’ for proof of God.   Since, by the very structure of logic itself, we cannot grasp what God is in any mathematical or quantifiable sense, we cannot include God as a scientific assumption or conclusion.  To do otherwise would be error.  So I disagree with you that “time will tell”.  Time will never change that.

I didn’t think I skipped the first part of your prior post:

“Intelligent Design does not proselytize in any way, shape, or form.  However, it does threaten the theory of Evolution, even more so, the funding of research towards Evolution.  You start messing with people's money and they get upset.  That's not even touching the surface of why there's so much intelorance towards the mindset of Intelligent Design.”

I responded with this:

I don't buy your 'ulterior motive' argument that scientists are on the take to insulate their research grants.  That is precisely why there are mechanisms, like peer review, in place to guard against arbitrary nonsense passed off as 'scientific inquiry', much like Intelligent Design Theory. 

If an inherently unscientific concept like “God” is introduced into scientific calculus then we have proselytizing.

Thanks for the links to those books.

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2007, 09:04:02 AM »
No sweat, bro. 

I heard a great speech given by Frank Peretti this morning on Focus on the Family Radio.  He had a great line that I think I'm going to start using for the evolutionists. 

Definition of Evolution: from goo to you, compliments of the zoo!  lol :P

Here's the link if anyone's interested:  www.oneplace.com/ministries/Focus_on_the_Family/archives.asp?bcd=2007-6-18

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2007, 09:11:39 AM »
I’m not trying to use ten dollar words to impress you.  “Epistemology” is the study of the validity of knowledge.  How do we determine if knowledge is valid in the realm of science?  We have the scientific method.  Your “art of discovery” claim isn’t adequate to describe what science is really about.  Pre-teens discover their “special purpose” all the time, that’s not science.

Show me the ‘tangibles’ for proof of God.   Since, by the very structure of logic itself, we cannot grasp what God is in any mathematical or quantifiable sense, we cannot include God as a scientific assumption or conclusion.  To do otherwise would be error.  So I disagree with you that “time will tell”.  Time will never change that.

I didn’t think I skipped the first part of your prior post:

“Intelligent Design does not proselytize in any way, shape, or form.  However, it does threaten the theory of Evolution, even more so, the funding of research towards Evolution.  You start messing with people's money and they get upset.  That's not even touching the surface of why there's so much intelorance towards the mindset of Intelligent Design.”

I responded with this:

I don't buy your 'ulterior motive' argument that scientists are on the take to insulate their research grants.  That is precisely why there are mechanisms, like peer review, in place to guard against arbitrary nonsense passed off as 'scientific inquiry', much like Intelligent Design Theory. 

If an inherently unscientific concept like “God” is introduced into scientific calculus then we have proselytizing.

Thanks for the links to those books.
I was actually referring to this question:

Question: how do you explain the increase in debate betwee ID and Evolution?

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2007, 10:42:46 AM »
I was actually referring to this question:

Question: how do you explain the increase in debate betwee ID and Evolution?
I think it's part of the vicissitudes of a grass roots society.  For the last seven years, republicans have had considerable clout in our government.  These republicans are aligned with fundamentalist groups that want a certain religious perspective to flourish in the US.

These religious groups have new muscle to work with.  Look at the topic of this thread and how Congress tried to run with the ID ball until it gave up b/c the Office of Special Counsel overreached its jurisdiction to make/score political points on behalf of ID arguments and the alleged persecution.

The topic of this thread still comes down to the fact that the ID article was not submitted for peer review through accepted channels and as such, Dr. Sternberg let his personal religious feelings interfere with his duty and he presented Meyer's ID article as peer reviewed and ready for publication. 

That just was not the case and striking down the article had nothing to do with its religious content of ID.

Anyways, the religious folk in the US are simply trying to make non-believers, different-believers and ultimately science admit a nonscientific fact/conclusion by admitting the validity of ID. 

As we have seen, ID implies an intelligent god/designer etc and that, by virtue of logic itself, we cannot comprehend our ultimate reality in terms of rational discourse/formula.  Therefore, the very concept of ID is not subject to the scientific method and cannot be classified as science.

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2007, 10:52:10 AM »
No sweat, bro. 

I heard a great speech given by Frank Peretti this morning on Focus on the Family Radio.  He had a great line that I think I'm going to start using for the evolutionists. 

Definition of Evolution: from goo to you, compliments of the zoo!  lol :P

Here's the link if anyone's interested:  www.oneplace.com/ministries/Focus_on_the_Family/archives.asp?bcd=2007-6-18
"goo"...that's a good one. 

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2007, 11:30:06 AM »
"goo"...that's a good one. 
when you have time, give that link a listen. 

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2007, 11:55:18 AM »
I think it's part of the vicissitudes of a grass roots society.  For the last seven years, republicans have had considerable clout in our government.  These republicans are aligned with fundamentalist groups that want a certain religious perspective to flourish in the US.

These religious groups have new muscle to work with.  Look at the topic of this thread and how Congress tried to run with the ID ball until it gave up b/c the Office of Special Counsel overreached its jurisdiction to make/score political points on behalf of ID arguments and the alleged persecution.

The topic of this thread still comes down to the fact that the ID article was not submitted for peer review through accepted channels and as such, Dr. Sternberg let his personal religious feelings interfere with his duty and he presented Meyer's ID article as peer reviewed and ready for publication. 

That just was not the case and striking down the article had nothing to do with its religious content of ID.

Anyways, the religious folk in the US are simply trying to make non-believers, different-believers and ultimately science admit a nonscientific fact/conclusion by admitting the validity of ID. 

As we have seen, ID implies an intelligent god/designer etc and that, by virtue of logic itself, we cannot comprehend our ultimate reality in terms of rational discourse/formula.  Therefore, the very concept of ID is not subject to the scientific method and cannot be classified as science.

This isn't a Republic thing.  How would you explain this?

"Independents and Democrats are more likely than Republicans to believe in the theory of evolution. But even among non-Republicans there appears to be a significant minority who doubt that evolution adequately explains where humans came from." 

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=27847

Or this?

Poll: Majority Reject Evolution
51 Percent Believe God Created Humans


(CBS) Most Americans do not accept the theory of evolution. Instead, 51 percent of Americans say God created humans in their present form, and another three in 10 say that while humans evolved, God guided the process. Just 15 percent say humans evolved, and that God was not involved.

These views are similar to what they were in November 2004 shortly after the presidential election.

This question on the origin of human beings, asked both this month and in November 2004, offered the public three alternatives: 1. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, and God did not directly guide this process; 2. Human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, but God guided this process; or 3. God created human beings in their present form.

The results were not much different between the answers to that question and those given when a specific timeline was included in the final alternative: God created human beings in their present form within the last 10,000 years.

Americans most likely to believe in only evolution are liberals (36 percent), those who rarely or never attend religious services (25 percent), and those with a college degree or higher (24 percent).

White evangelicals (77 percent), weekly churchgoers (74 percent) and conservatives (64 percent), are mostly likely to say God created humans in their present form. 

. . . .

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/22/opinion/polls/main965223.shtml

Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2007, 11:56:32 AM »
I think it's part of the vicissitudes of a grass roots society.  For the last seven years, republicans have had considerable clout in our government.  These republicans are aligned with fundamentalist groups that want a certain religious perspective to flourish in the US.

These religious groups have new muscle to work with.  Look at the topic of this thread and how Congress tried to run with the ID ball until it gave up b/c the Office of Special Counsel overreached its jurisdiction to make/score political points on behalf of ID arguments and the alleged persecution.
I would argue that there is a new innovation or alternative view that is a much bigger monster than the grass roots you speak of.  

Look at the path television has gone down:

Old School Family Shows
Father Knows Best
Leave It to Beaver
My Three Sons
Brady Bunch

To what we've progressed (regressed imo) to
The Ozbournes
Gene Simmons
Anna Nicole Smith reality tv
Real World (how real is living in a phat pad for 6 months when you're in your early 20's?)
and let's not forget the Simpsons, or King the Hill

....this is what the so-called progressives believe to be better for America   :-\

The topic of this thread still comes down to the fact that the ID article was not submitted for peer review through accepted channels and as such, Dr. Sternberg let his personal religious feelings interfere with his duty and he presented Meyer's ID article as peer reviewed and ready for publication. 

That just was not the case and striking down the article had nothing to do with its religious content of ID.
And you know for a fact that Dr. Sternberg's personal religious feelings interfered with his duties to follow procedure?  Did he tell you this?  Also, do we know if this is the first time that procedure had not been followed with respect to peer review?  

Anyways, the religious folk in the US are simply trying to make non-believers, different-believers and ultimately science admit a nonscientific fact/conclusion by admitting the validity of ID. 

As we have seen, ID implies an intelligent god/designer etc and that, by virtue of logic itself, we cannot comprehend our ultimate reality in terms of rational discourse/formula.  Therefore, the very concept of ID is not subject to the scientific method and cannot be classified as science.
Since you brought politics to the table, I say give this Congress & Senate good time, they'll stomp the throats of the grass roots and muffle any noise that it might attempt.  I'm sure that would suite you just fine, yes?  

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2007, 07:09:41 AM »
.....
....this is what the so-called progressives believe to be better for America   :-\
And you know for a fact that Dr. Sternberg's personal religious feelings interfered with his duties to follow procedure?  Did he tell you this?  Also, do we know if this is the first time that procedure had not been followed with respect to peer review?  
Since you brought politics to the table, I say give this Congress & Senate good time, they'll stomp the throats of the grass roots and muffle any noise that it might attempt.  I'm sure that would suite you just fine, yes?  
I'm not sure what popular tastes in television have to do with ID, but I do like King of the Hill.

Re Dr. Sternberg, the fact of the matter is that he subverted the normal procedure for peer review for publication.
Here are the facts:

*Sternberg handled the entire review of the Meyer article

*Sternberg had the article published

Since the article was not submitted to the normal channels for peer review, I would say it is reasonable to conclude that, by his own acts, Dr. Sternberg was subverting peer review to publish an otherwise unpublishable article.  From that I conclude that his method was motivated not by science but by something else--religious enthusiasm, one might say.

Here's how the board of the journal in question assessed the problem:

The paper by Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," in vol. 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239 of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. ...
http://www.biolsocwash.org/id_statement.html

It doesn't matter to me whether this case is the first or not for following the requirement of peer review.  The peer review methodology was not followed in the Sternberg case and that's enough.  As a matter of course though, peer review is stringent in the sciences and always adhered to in order to keep non-scientific stuff like ID out of scientific discussion.

The government represents our will.  I don't like abusive governments any more than you do.  But ID creationism is nothing more than religious belief.  That is all. 

It's a free country, you can believe what you wish.  Just don't force your beliefs on me or try to corrupt science with something that is entirely unscientific.


Colossus_500

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2007, 11:10:42 AM »
I'm not sure what popular tastes in television have to do with ID, but I do like King of the Hill.

Re Dr. Sternberg, the fact of the matter is that he subverted the normal procedure for peer review for publication.
Here are the facts:

*Sternberg handled the entire review of the Meyer article

*Sternberg had the article published

Since the article was not submitted to the normal channels for peer review, I would say it is reasonable to conclude that, by his own acts, Dr. Sternberg was subverting peer review to publish an otherwise unpublishable article.  From that I conclude that his method was motivated not by science but by something else--religious enthusiasm, one might say.

Here's how the board of the journal in question assessed the problem:

The paper by Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," in vol. 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239 of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. ...
http://www.biolsocwash.org/id_statement.html

It doesn't matter to me whether this case is the first or not for following the requirement of peer review.  The peer review methodology was not followed in the Sternberg case and that's enough.  As a matter of course though, peer review is stringent in the sciences and always adhered to in order to keep non-scientific stuff like ID out of scientific discussion.
Nowhere in these facts do did I see where Sternberg's religious belief interceeded in his review.  Did I miss that somethere?  I didn't see it explicitly stated.  So, I believe my question of Sternberg's religious belief playing into the review remains unanswered.

The government represents our will.  I don't like abusive governments any more than you do.  But ID creationism is nothing more than religious belief.  That is all. 

Evolution itself can be considered a religious belief, do you not agree? 

It's a free country, you can believe what you wish.  Just don't force your beliefs on me or try to corrupt science with something that is entirely unscientific.
Therein lies the whole issue of how you and I see religion......Creation = God to me, however God/Creation DOES NOT EQUAL religion, which is how I believe you see it, correct?

Decker

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Re: The Smithsonian Intolerance
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2007, 11:21:40 AM »

Quote
Nowhere in these facts do did I see where Sternberg's religious belief interceeded in his review.  Did I miss that somethere?  I didn't see it explicitly stated.  So, I believe my question of Sternberg's religious belief playing into the review remains unanswered.
If Sternberg published the article only by subverting peer review, applicable to all science articles, then he isn't publishing the article in the interests of science is he?

He must be publishing it for another reason.  Since the topic of the article in question refers to ID, I would conclude that he is pushing his religious ideas as hard as he can in contravention of the safeguards of peer review and science itself.

Quote
Evolution itself can be considered a religious belief, do you not agree?
No.  Please explain why Evolution is a religious belief. 
Quote
Therein lies the whole issue of how you and I see religion......Creation = God to me, however God/Creation DOES NOT EQUAL religion, which is how I believe you see it, correct?
God is god and He always will be irrespective of my views.  I don't know what He is.  But I am grateful for living.  I don't know what all this is or what I am, but I am here and I love living.

He doesn't depend on anything from me except bad entertainment.