Author Topic: When Americans reclaim the Amateur World Championships ?. (Read 11356 times)

musclecenter · « **on:** June 17, 2007, 03:33:59 AM »

Michael Lockett (2007 Junior Nationals overallwinner) was the overall winner of US Team Universe 2006, too, but he only placed 12th in the 2006 Super Heavyweight World Championships in the Czech Republic .
How could he earn a Pro Card last year

discuss

CQ · « **Reply #1 on:** June 17, 2007, 03:45:54 AM »

Fairly simple....not speaking of Lockett per se...but in general. The worlds has the best of the best from all over the world. Everyone there is a national champion basically. Being the best in your nation is a huge accomplishment no doubt, but being the best in the world is a whole next level.

Dballn247 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 17, 2007, 03:54:47 AM »

Quote from: musclecenter on June 17, 2007, 03:33:59 AM

Michael Lockett (2007 Junior Nationals overallwinner) was the overall winner of US Team Universe 2006, too, but he only placed 12th in the 2006 Super Heavyweight World Championships in the Czech Republic .
How could he earn a Pro Card last year

discuss

That was 2006, this is 2007. J/K.....You are no stranger to BB, winning is all about who shows up to the show. Also does the competitor really set on doing this show, or is he obligated. All of these things make a difference.

musclecenter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 17, 2007, 04:08:58 AM »

I mean why can't a European or Asian Champion,or other National or International Champions,for that matter,not earn a "Pro-Card" ?

CQ · « **Reply #4 on:** June 17, 2007, 04:14:17 AM »

Quote from: musclecenter on June 17, 2007, 04:08:58 AM

I mean why can't a European or Asian Champion,or other National or International Champions,for that matter,not earn a "Pro-Card" ?

They do, I believe there is a pro card given out the European Champs [?] and I know in my region we get one card per year per division...but there are far less pro cards available to the rest of the world, comparitively to one nation, yes.

omg · « **Reply #5 on:** June 17, 2007, 04:15:02 AM »

Quote from: musclecenter on June 17, 2007, 04:08:58 AM

I mean why can't a European or Asian Champion,or other National or International Champions,for that matter,not earn a "Pro-Card" ?

they can but its just a lot harder than an american citizen

since IFBB was started in america, it is based in america and centers around america...i think the IFFB amateurs are all over the world but the main thing people care about is the IFFB pros which centers in america

CQ · « **Reply #6 on:** June 17, 2007, 04:27:23 AM »

Quote from: omg on June 17, 2007, 04:15:02 AM

they can but its just a lot harder than an american citizen

since IFBB was started in america, it is based in america and centers around america...i think the IFFB amateurs are all over the world but the main thing people care about is the IFFB pros which centers in america

Basically, yes. The "International" in the IFBB, on a pro level, is a bit of a misnomer as it is a more American org as you said.

Hedgehog · « **Reply #7 on:** June 17, 2007, 04:34:57 AM »

Quote from: CQ on June 17, 2007, 03:45:54 AM

Fairly simple....not speaking of Lockett per se...but in general. The worlds has the best of the best from all over the world. Everyone there is a national champion basically. Being the best in your nation is a huge accomplishment no doubt, but being the best in the world is a whole next level.

You're not mentioning the fact that most countries don't have drug testing at the national level.

Team Universe is, at least on paper (Hello MattT!), a natural competition.

That's the biggest reason why USA isn't doing well in these competitions.

Best solution would obviously be if the NPC Nationals winners would go to the World Championships, and there they would try to win their pro card.

This is of course never gonna happen, as NPC won't freely give up the dozen or so pro cards their allowed to hand out each year.

-Hedge

christinafitness · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2007, 06:29:21 AM »

I am a little shocked how little most people know about the IFBB.
The IFBB is an international bodybuilding federation (for amateurs and professionals) based in Canada. Last October Dr. Rafeael Santonja from Spain took over the presidency from Ben Weider. Ben and Joe Weider (both Canadians) founded the IFBB in 1946.
The IFBB recognizes National Federations as their members. In the US it is the NPC.
While most athletes in the IFBB are amateurs, some of the advanced athletes are made "IFBB Professionals."
The head organization for the IFBB Professionals is the "IFBB Pro League." The president of the IFBB Pro League is Jim Manion from the USA. He is also a vice president of the IFBB and the president of the NPC, which is the amateur organization of the IFBB in the USA.
Some athletes become IFBB Pros, based on their rankings at certain championships. Some become IFBB Pros based on a recommendation by a national federation. Athletes from the US are clearly favored here.
Another very important split within the IFBB is caused by the drug tests. While most international championships are drug tested, most competitions in the USA are not. The NPC Team Universe is an exception. That's why the winners from the Team Universe represent the USA at the World Championships, but never place very high.

musclecenter · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2007, 07:42:43 AM »

Sorry,guys
My English is not so perfect .
As a 30+years bodybuilder ,I know the rule of "IFBB Pro League" and NPC.......
But for a non-American,we always have 2 questions:

(1)Why US's Team Universe placements are so low in World Championships now?
in 2006,all USA athletes's placements almost last.-70kg was last!!!
Japan and our team have strict drug tests too(I was 2006 Taiwan national team coach ),but our placements better than USA !
It's impossible 20 years ago !!!!!
Since 1985 USA team's placements in World Championships have gotten worse !!!

(2)Why IFBB Pro League won't invite more foreign champions to get a pro-card ?
(According to rules:every class-winner of NPC Nationals can get pro-card .but class-winner of Asian Championships can not !)

##Anyone give me answer ?(please don't trolling)

........................ ........................ ........................ ........................
Last year I have finished my 735 pages Chinese edition bodybuilding book (pic as following)

Havenbull · « **Reply #10 on:** June 17, 2007, 07:57:28 AM »

Quote from: musclecenter on June 17, 2007, 07:42:43 AM

Sorry,guys
My English is not so perfect .
As a 30+years bodybuilder ,I know the rule of "IFBB Pro League" and NPC.......
But for a non-American,we always have 2 questions:

(1)Why US's Team Universe placements are so low in World Championships now?
in 2006,all USA athletes's placements almost last.-70kg was last!!!
Japan and our team have strict drug tests too(I was 2006 Taiwan national team coach ),but our placements better than USA !
It's impossible 20 years ago !!!!!
Since 1985 USA team's placements in World Championships have gotten worse !!!

(2)Why IFBB Pro League won't invite more foreign champions to get a pro-card ?
(According to rules:every class-winner of NPC Nationals can get pro-card .but class-winner of Asian Championships can not !)

##Anyone give me answer ?(please don't trolling)

........................ ........................ ........................ ........................
Last year I have finished my 735 pages Chinese edition bodybuilding book (pic as following)

Because Team Universe is a natural contest

and our american naturals suck

LATS · « **Reply #11 on:** June 17, 2007, 08:43:23 AM »

the ifbb worlds are a tough show.. everyone who places inthem has cheated the test.. remember that it is drug tested.. not a "natural" show.. get around the test as most do and you can compete.. thatbeing said, lockett was outclassed by the euro bodybuilders.. europe has some great talent that we just dont see in our magazines ect.. but, many could come here and win our very own nationals..

christinafitness · « **Reply #12 on:** June 17, 2007, 08:51:53 AM »

There are eight weight classes. Two out of the top five of each class are tested.

Cleanest Natural · « **Reply #13 on:** June 17, 2007, 09:14:57 AM »

Quote from: CQ on June 17, 2007, 04:14:17 AM

They do, I believe there is a pro card given out the European Champs [?] and I know in my region we get one card per year per division...but there are far less pro cards available to the rest of the world, comparitively to one nation, yes.

u BELIEVE WRONG..NO CARD TO THE EUROPEAN CHAMP.

christinafitness · « **Reply #14 on:** June 17, 2007, 09:31:03 AM »

Nobody gets automatically a pro card, because he won a European Championships (although he should!!).
It depends how the National Federations handle this. The National Federations can submit an athlete for Pro Staus, becauce he placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd or so in a big contest. Outside the US I only know of the winner of the Canadians and the (overall) winner of the IFBB World. Dennis Wolf got his pro card that way (he was NOT drug tested). Ali Tabrizi could ask for his pro card, but is not sure if he really wants it. Kamal ElGargni and Elshahat Mabrouk were IFBB Pros, but wanted to go back being amateurs.

I understand that some athletes who qualify for pro status prefer being amateurs for two reasons:

1) you need to take too many drugs.
2) the IFBB Pro League clearly favors athletes, who live in the US.

hardkor · « **Reply #15 on:** June 17, 2007, 10:27:10 AM »

So is or is not the World Championships a drug-tested show??

Mr Taiwan seems to imply that....but not cristina?

I know Hamdullah Akutya(sp?), mr. Shredded, went pro in the IFBB and then went back to an Amateur and represented his country (Turkey i think) at the Worlds.

G o a t b o y · « **Reply #16 on:** June 17, 2007, 11:10:56 AM »

Quote from: musclecenter on June 17, 2007, 07:42:43 AM

But for a non-American,we always have 2 questions:

(1)Why US's Team Universe placements are so low in World Championships now?
in 2006,all USA athletes's placements almost last.-70kg was last!!!
Japan and our team have strict drug tests too(I was 2006 Taiwan national team coach ),but our placements better than USA !
It's impossible 20 years ago !!!!!
Since 1985 USA team's placements in World Championships have gotten worse !!!

Bodybuilding is about genetics as much as anything else. In America, the guys with the best genetics skip the Team Universe and do the NPC Nationals so they can become pros. So in reality, the "world championships" are your best guys against our second-best guys. The best American athletes never compete at the IFBB Worlds.

Quote

(2)Why IFBB Pro League won't invite more foreign champions to get a pro-card ?
(According to rules:every class-winner of NPC Nationals can get pro-card .but class-winner of Asian Championships can not !)

More foreign champions probably should get pro cards. However, in the case of Asia, since according to Milos, Paul Chua is busy fixing all of the results anyway, maybe it's not such a good idea.

christinafitness · « **Reply #17 on:** June 17, 2007, 05:53:39 PM »

G o a t b o y: you make some good points!

Basically it comes down to this:

1) drug-tested or not
2) US or the rest of the world
3) Santonja or Manion

CQ · « **Reply #18 on:** June 17, 2007, 06:21:00 PM »

Quote from: christinafitness on June 17, 2007, 09:31:03 AM

Nobody gets automatically a pro card, because he won a European Championships (although he should!!).
It depends how the National Federations handle this. The National Federations can submit an athlete for Pro Staus, becauce he placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd or so in a big contest. Outside the US I only know of the winner of the Canadians and the (overall) winner of the IFBB World. Dennis Wolf got his pro card that way (he was NOT drug tested). Ali Tabrizi could ask for his pro card, but is not sure if he really wants it. Kamal ElGargni and Elshahat Mabrouk were IFBB Pros, but wanted to go back being amateurs.

I understand that some athletes who qualify for pro status prefer being amateurs for two reasons:

1) you need to take too many drugs.
2) the IFBB Pro League clearly favors athletes, who live in the US.

Another reason is some amateurs worldwide are financially compensated by their respective governments for winning, and it is in their better financial interests to refuse the pro card. I personally get more compensation as an 'amateur' than I would ever most likely see as a 'pro'.

Quote from: sevastase on June 17, 2007, 09:14:57 AM

u BELIEVE WRONG..NO CARD TO THE EUROPEAN CHAMP.

Wow, that's pretty weak. I thought they did and believe they should.

Strange thing is, I don't know how, but there seems to be a lot of pro figure girls coming out of Europe. I see girls who I know have not even won the European Champs who seem to then turn up with pro status...?

Ozgrrl · « **Reply #19 on:** June 17, 2007, 07:20:14 PM »

Actually the USA team the Canadian team and the Aussie team are some of the 'few' who are drug free!
If you look back and see the top 3 in each class for the last few years running you will find they are generally DQ and as they dont test everyone the places are left open.
Sad but true!
When I went to the Worlds as a spectator it was an eye opener. The Americans had some of the BEST NATURAL physiques in the world whereas the other countries def had drugs involved.

jude2 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 17, 2007, 07:26:46 PM »

Lockett was a heavyweight at the TU and a superHW and the World's, barely missing the weight class.

mantronik · « **Reply #21 on:** June 17, 2007, 07:39:39 PM »

Quote from: CQ on June 17, 2007, 06:21:00 PM

Strange thing is, I don't know how, but there seems to be a lot of pro figure girls coming out of Europe. I see girls who I know have not even won the European Champs who seem to then turn up with pro status...?

Mercedes Khani is pro now on recommendation from the dutch federation even though she never won anything major.
They believe she can represent Holland in pro figure contests together with Mascha Tieken who is a pro for a few years now

musclecenter · « **Reply #22 on:** June 18, 2007, 07:42:49 AM »

When will the Team USA win the World Amateur Championships like Lee Haney did in 1982 ??
If they can't claim the title,it would be pretty sad !!
I hope they don't get last place again !!

Monster_Everything · « **Reply #23 on:** June 18, 2007, 07:55:44 AM »

All the good american athletes use thier potential in sports that actually pay...

timfogarty · « **Reply #24 on:** June 18, 2007, 10:27:23 AM »

Quote from: christinafitness on June 17, 2007, 06:29:21 AM

Ben and Joe Weider (both Canadians) founded the IFBB in 1946.

actually, there is no evidence of this. The first time the Weiders used the name IFBB was in the December 1947 issue of Your Physique and the first IFBB contest run by the Weiders was the 1948 Mr Eastern North America. The IFBB was incorporated as a business entity in 1969.

Quote

(drug testing) The NPC Team Universe is an exception.

yet no one has ever been disqualified from TeamU for failing a drug test, no one has lost their placing, no one has lost their pro card.

Quote from: CQ

Another reason is some amateurs worldwide are financially compensated by their respective governments for winning, and it is in their better financial interests to refuse the pro card.

The Singapore government paid their top amateur bodybuilder $168,000 for winning a gold medal at the Asian games a few years back. Little chance of them making that as a pro.