All naturals have basically the same amount of muscle on there structure

[pobrecito]

This is why natural bodybuilding sucks. The only time you are even recognizable as a bodybuilder is when you are walking around in thong 

[The Master]

no not even 210-215, not with low bf levels, the guys who think they are 10 percent and below are almost always 15 percent.

Your last statement is a stretch. 210 - 215 @ BF <10% is probably not impossible, yet only seen very very rarely.

[The Squadfather]

Your last statement is a stretch. 210 - 215 @ BF <10% is probably not impossible, yet only seen very very rarely.

maybe at 6 feet but not 5'9".

[Andre Nickatina]

This thread should be moved to the dump.

[Cee21Jay]

maybe at 6 feet but not 5'9".

I agree more so with this

[Cee21Jay]

This thread should be moved to the dump.

What is the dump?  Why should it be moved there?

[The Master]

maybe at 6 feet but not 5'9".

In a large enough population of humans, extremes do exists, as lot's of statistical surveys have shown. The more extreme, the more rare.
Let us say we look at 2000000 natural bodybuilders. This groups musclemass distribution can like most human traits be represented with a distribution from statistics. Most distributions allows for extremes to occur very rarely.
I doubt you have seen enough people to verify that a 5'9''s with sub10BF @ 215 can not exist. I'm not saying it's normal at all, but such a bold statement as yours is not valid because you simply don't have the means to verify it, while we do know that within large human populations, certain rare individuals will deviate a lot from the average.

-> The statistical distributions of human traits also explains why Daddywaddy is wrong about all naturals having basically the same amount of muscle. They simply don't.

[The Squadfather]

Doug Miller, 26 Weeks out, 5'8,  221 lbs (he's gonna kill me for posting his pics - he's a very modest guy and so tough on himself):

Let me see if this image works, if not give me a sec to upload it:

no way is that 221 if he's 5'8", i'd say more like 186-191 and he's not natural.

[climber]

Doug Miller, 26 Weeks out, 5'8,  221 lbs (he's gonna kill me for posting his pics - he's a very modest guy and so tough on himself):

Let me see if this image works, if not give me a sec to upload it:

If he's natural then he must be right on the upper end of natural test levels... lucky bugger.

[climber]

Another, All natural

hahah, people walking by that window out there must think there's something dodgy happening in that room

[Moen]

That guy really looks natural, no redness, no bloat anywhere and no big head (which seems to grow an awful lot on naturals LOL)

[climber]

There's a PT at my gym who used to be on the 'roids but he's been clean for over a year now. He's 5 foot 9 and maintains a very lean bodyweight of 220... crazy strong mofo. I'm trying to get some vids of him lifting on youtube...

[The Squadfather]

One More:



The thing about Doug is I've never seen someone more anal about their diet and their contest prep and Offseason habits as him.  He NEVER cheats, not even once a month or anything, He weighs all his food to the last gram, he is so anal, takes a shit load of supps, doesn't skip meals, he just will not do ANYTHING that will interfere with building muscle.

And he has competed in tested events in the OCB and the IFPA tested by urinalysis and polygraph and has never had any problems, and like I said he is a very old friend so there is no way I won't believe him.

are you with him 24 hrs. a day?

[Andre Nickatina]

Thast guy is a beast.

[BIG ACH]

Of course I am not with him 24 hours a day, I know where you are going, so you are right I can never know 100% if he is natural, but like I said, I believe him when he says he is natural, and like I said he has always passed all drug tests poly and urinalysis.  If you choose to believe he is not-natural, then that is your choice, but I will believe otherwise.

And by the way that is 221, I saw him when he stepped on the scale.


Doug was the one who convinced me to not get fat this offseason and stay lean.  Who knows maybe I'll be like him one day!

[The Squadfather]

Of course I am not with him 24 hours a day, I know where you are going, so you are right I can never know 100% if he is natural, but like I said, I believe him when he says he is natural, and like I said he has always passed all drug tests poly and urinalysis.  If you choose to believe he is not-natural, then that is your choice, but I will believe otherwise.

And by the way that is 221, I saw him when he stepped on the scale.


Doug was the one who convinced me to not get fat this offseason and stay lean.  Who knows maybe I'll be like him one day!

i'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on both the natural status claim and the weight.

[Palpatine Q]

no way is that 221 if he's 5'8", i'd say more like 186-191 and he's not natural.

He could be natty, he looks good but not "holy shit" good

[BIG ACH]

Out of respect for Doug, I removed the pictures because I know he doesn't like his pics floating all around the internet, but I wanted to give you guys the idea.

Squadfather, if you believe that he is not natural and he is not that weight, so be it, there is nothing I can really say or do that can make you change your mind.  But I am telling you guys what I saw and what I know, as well as what I believe. 

[Cee21Jay]

In a large enough population of humans, extremes do exists, as lot's of statistical surveys have shown. The more extreme, the more rare.
Let us say we look at 2000000 natural bodybuilders. This groups musclemass distribution can like most human traits be represented with a distribution from statistics. Most distributions allows for extremes to occur very rarely.
I doubt you have seen enough people to verify that a 5'9''s with sub10BF @ 215 can not exist. I'm not saying it's normal at all, but such a bold statement as yours is not valid because you simply don't have the means to verify it, while we do know that within large human populations, certain rare individuals will deviate a lot from the average.

-> The statistical distributions of human traits also explains why Daddywaddy is wrong about all naturals having basically the same amount of muscle. They simply don't.

Yeah, I wish he wrote most instead of all.  I also wish he wrote in his experience.  This would have been best.   I think his statement was made in this way to get attention and make people think.

[BIG ACH]

I believe 100% that the human body and human genetics are naturally capable of so much more than what we are led to believe today.  I say this statement without any scientific basis, only things that I have seen around me. 

Who knows, maybe I will be stuck looking the way that I look right now forever, or maybe I will continue to get bigger and end up looking like my boy Doug, or maybe I'm gonna end up shrinking?  All I know is, I'm sticking to the Iron game rep after rep with all the intensity that I can possibly put into it, a solid diet, and hoping for the best!!!

[Cee21Jay]

are you with him 24 hrs. a day?

He looks great.  He does not appear natural to me.  He could be an exception, which I hope he is, if he competes naturally.

[Cee21Jay]

I believe 100% that the human body and human genetics are naturally capable of so much more than what we are led to believe today.  I say this statement without any scientific basis, only things that I have seen around me. 

Who knows, maybe I will be stuck looking the way that I look right now forever, or maybe I will continue to get bigger and end up looking like my boy Doug, or maybe I'm gonna end up shrinking?  All I know is, I'm sticking to the Iron game rep after rep with all the intensity that I can possibly put into it, a solid diet, and hoping for the best!!!

Good attitude.  You are applying some of what daddy said.  You may learn to accept the first portion of this quote in time. It probably is best if you do not.  This way you will likely hit your maximal potential.

"no one really has superior genetics, only a superior mindset.

[BIG ACH]

Cee21Jay,

I actually really like this quote.  Although I don't agree with it, because as we all know genetics play a huge role in bodybuilding.

But sometimes you just never know, like I said, Doug weighed 120 lbs before he started training and now competes at 185, and you saw what he looks like now.

I weighed about 150 when I first started training.  Now I compete at about 180 lbs, and have gotten up to as much as 260 in the offseason (Yes I was a FAT SHIT) and I'm never doing that again.  Who would have known.

I've actually had people tell me after I competed that they think that I've tapped out and reached my genetic limitation (I'm 24).  I would be an idiot to say "NO WAY!!!" at the same time, I would be an idiot to say "YOU'RE RIGHT"  no one can ever really know what their genetics are capable of unless they push themselves and just keep fighting the iron every single day.

[Cee21Jay]

Cee21Jay,

I actually really like this quote.  Although I don't agree with it, because as we all know genetics play a huge role in bodybuilding.

But sometimes you just never know, like I said, Doug weighed 120 lbs before he started training and now competes at 185, and you saw what he looks like now.

I weighed about 150 when I first started training.  Now I compete at about 180 lbs, and have gotten up to as much as 260 in the offseason (Yes I was a FAT SHIT) and I'm never doing that again.  Who would have known.

I've actually had people tell me after I competed that they think that I've tapped out and reached my genetic limitation (I'm 24).  I would be an idiot to say "NO WAY!!!" at the same time, I would be an idiot to say "YOU'RE RIGHT"  no one can ever really know what their genetics are capable of unless they push themselves and just keep fighting the iron every single day.

Like I said good attitude. Just hope you don't become disappointed. 

[BIG ACH]

Bodybuilding has already given me more than enough that I don't think I can ever be disappointed.  Great discussion!