Why should we stay in Iraq?

[OzmO]

Discuss.....

Try to be realistic 

[Dos Equis]

Because an immediate pullout would result in a full-scale civil war and completely destabilize the country. 

[Colossus_500]

Because an immediate pullout would result in a full-scale civil war and completely destabilize the country. 

Not to mention it becoming a hotbed for more militant Muslim organizations to take over where Saddam left off.

[OzmO]

Because an immediate pullout would result in a full-scale civil war and completely destabilize the country. 

Why should we spend our money and the lives of our sons for that?


(Just trying to clarify our reasons for staying there.)

[Dos Equis]

Why should we spend our money and the lives of our sons for that?


(Just trying to clarify our reasons for staying there.)

Because we started the war. 

[Dos Equis]

Not to mention it becoming a hotbed for more militant Muslim organizations to take over where Saddam left off.

Correct.

[OzmO]

Because we started the war. 

Those men that are dying didn't start the war.  The people who are paying right now didn't start the war.

I've held on to that argument myself for some time, but I'm starting to wonder now.

We are spending about 100 billion a year....(100 State of the art football stadiums or about 2 million 50K college scholarships per year.)

At what point do we realize that juice isn't worth the squeeze?

[OzmO]

Not to mention it becoming a hotbed for more militant Muslim organizations to take over where Saddam left off.

That already exists in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Palestine and Syria.

Also Saddam wasn't a militant Muslim who considered dying for Islam an honorable thing.  He was a dictator who valued his power and wealth and would do whatever needed to keep it.

These crazies have no problem dying for their cause.

[Dos Equis]

Those men that are dying didn't start the war.  The people who are paying right now didn't start the war.

I've held on to that argument myself for some time, but I'm starting to wonder now.

We are spending about 100 billion a year....(100 State of the art football stadiums or about 2 million 50K college scholarships per year.)

At what point do we realize that juice isn't worth the squeeze?

The men and women who die in combat are never the ones who start the war. 

You cannot just assume the money being spent on the war would be spent on some pet project (the items you listed would be paid for privately or by state/local governments).  If we weren't spending $100 billion on the war, the feds would be wasting it somewhere else.   

We might reach the point of diminishing returns, but we have to be responsible.  We cannot just leave.  We have an obligation to help clean up the mess. 

[9 Ball Slim]

We might reach the point of diminishing returns, but we have to be responsible.  We cannot just leave.  We have an obligation to help clean up the mess. 

I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole.  At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over.  At that point the military should have packed up and gone home.  What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that.  We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there.  More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.

The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war.  It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now.  Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place.  Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.

BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.

[Old_Rooster]

We should leave.  Time to dump a few nukes on em and vamoose!

[Dos Equis]

I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole.  At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over.  At that point the military should have packed up and gone home.  What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that.  We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there.  More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.

The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war.  It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now.  Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place.  Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.

BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.

Thanks for your service 9 ball.  Props to you. 

I've heard others who have been on the ground say the same thing.  We probably do have a finger in the dike, but we need to get more Iraqis trained to start policing the country.  I've heard that a lot of Iraqi military are just lazy.  They don't always show up for work, quit, and there is no penalty.  They need to set up something like the UCMJ.  I know a retired officer who is on the ground there now trying to help them put their laws together.  Hopefully they can address this issue.  This is part of the reason why we cannot leave now. 

[Colossus_500]

That already exists in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Palestine and Syria.

So, you're saying you want Iraq to join the party w/these countries?  That makes alot of sense.   

[OzmO]

So, you're saying you want Iraq to join the party w/these countries?  That makes alot of sense.   

Not for the price we are paying. 

Our security won't change significantly.  That's the basis of my argument in naming those other countries.

[headhuntersix]

Everybody seems to be in agreement..time to go..its the "how" that matters.

[OzmO]

Everybody seems to be in agreement..time to go..its the "how" that matters.

phased withdrawal across 2 years.

[headhuntersix]

Sure.....but they have to have a bigger military/police force...anyway sounds good but the Dems will want it faster. No issues when they take power.

[Colossus_500]

I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole.  At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over.  At that point the military should have packed up and gone home.  What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that.  We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there.  More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.

The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war.  It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now.  Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place.  Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.

BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.

9-Ball, thanks for what you do!   

[Always Sore]

I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole.  At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over.  At that point the military should have packed up and gone home.  What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that.  We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there.  More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.

The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war.  It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now.  Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place.  Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.

BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.

I liked the term before nation building..Winning the hearts and minds..did not work then or now. The military has one roll and once it's completed then need to be withdrawn. The useless goverment is to shortsighted and confused on military uses and abilities.

[ieffinhatecardio]

I've done 5 tours in Iraq, and I can tell you that we reached the point of dimisihing returns the day after we pulled Saddam out of his hole.  At the point we did that, the regime change phase of the fight was over.  At that point the military should have packed up and gone home.  What we have been doing in Iraq ever since that day is nation building...and let me tell you, the military is not good at that.  We have a metric fuck ton of departments in our country that do know something about nation building, but with the exception of the DOS, they aren't over there.  More to the point, the Dept of Defense is prolly the last damn department you want doing nation building...we haven't done it well since the Marshall Plan, and some would argue that it was screwed up as well.

The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war.  It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now.  Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place.  Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.

BTW, right now, I'm deployed to Afghanistan doing....you guessed it, Nation building.

Great post, it's always more interesting hearing from the guys that are actually over there instead of the rest of us pontificating from the safety of our homes or offices.

I also love how we're getting to the point where soldiers and military personnel are starting to verbalize their negative points of view regarding Iraq. The honesty is needed.

I love how certain board neotaints still advocate war even in the face of OVERWHELMING evidence that our involvement in Iraq has been ridiculously inept and that nothing is going to change.

Keep fighting the good fight neotaints, and perhaps you could actually go over and do some of the fighting that you so vehemently advocate for.

Nothing better than a war monger that doesn't actual do any of the fighting.

[headhuntersix]

We break crap...thats what we do. I had an Afghan "mayor" tell the Civil Affairs guys I was with that unless they got a well built, they were going with the Taliban. He calls trashcanistan..we called it asscrackistan...either way it sucks.

[headhuntersix]

War has its place..but we're spinning our wheels in Iraq....Afghanistan is different to some degree. WE build crap for these folks..it helps some, but its mostly cover for our SOF folks to go in and kill badguys and keep an eye on others in Pakistan.

[Always Sore]

War has its place..but we're spinning our wheels in Iraq....Afghanistan is different to some degree. WE build crap for these folks..it helps some, but its mostly cover for our SOF folks to go in and kill badguys and keep an eye on others in Pakistan.

DO you think it has more to do with the two religious groups killing each other in Iraq and not so much in Afganastan?

[headhuntersix]

Well their more tribal...u got the narco's...afghanistan is a mess but unless our guys get blown up in spectacular fashion, you just don't here about it. Until 10th Mountain launched Mountain Lion last year, and the cable news guys felt compelled to send  people over, you never heard a word about it. Plenty of stuff was happening, but no news. We survived an IED attack outside the gate at Bagram, but until that guy blew himself up when the VP was there, u never heard about crap like that. I'd like to here what 9ball says about the Narco's.

[ieffinhatecardio]

The plain and simple truth is that when we leave Iraq, the country will disolve into civl war.  It's gonna' happen, and it doesn't matter if we leave tomorrow or 10 years from now.  Sometimes you have to let the course of human events take place.  Right now we have a finger in the dike of those events, and we're getting too many good people, my friends, killed in the process.

This is an interesting point. At what point do we let the Iraqi's settle this for themselves? We got rid of Saddam when is it their turn to figure out who runs the country and how it will be run?

At some point the Iraqi's have to take control of their own destiny.