questioning my faith

[homer77]

i had a fairly long phone conversation with my wifes jewish friend last night.  she shared her faith and their pov with me.  it was refreshing to hear.  she shared one point that was very nice.  i said i could not stand how people push their religion and how they kill over it.  if you are not one of us you need to die or change!!!  the jews do not accept convert (orthadox).  they dont push or force their religion because they are suppose to be a guide to the world who were chosen by God (in which i do believe).  we we talked about the differnt way we were raised and differences in our faiths (or my new lack of).  it was funny how i knew much about the new test and some of the old, but she was tearing me up on the old test.  anyway i learned alot and i may be researching their faith more.  i actually stayed up until 2am last night thinking.  things like...if i deny religion (or jesus) how can i possibly celebrate christmas?  could i really take such a great childhood event away from my son?  actually it is a great time of year, but i guess its the feeling of family and fun? 

[loco]

loco did you watch the movie by any chance? or the first part at least?

i think they do a very good job of disproving jesus. what are your thoughts, id be interested to hear them.

Man, that was a very long movie, but I did watch the whole thing, from the very beginning to the very end.  Here are my thoughts.
 
This movie is bias and it has a political agenda.  This movie is entertaining, but it's just a movie full of conspiracy theories, Jesus is a myth, Christianity was created to control people, 911 and Pearl Harbor were inside jobs, all Americans are slaves of the US Central bank, Bush signed an agreement with Canada and Mexico to unite North America and replace the dollar with a common currency and do away with the American Constitution, etc.  None of it can be taken seriously.
 
As for Jesus being a myth based on ancient pagan gods, the Gospels do not say that Jesus was born on December 25.
 
The Gospels do not say that Jesus was visited by 3 kings, but by some wise men. 
 
It is a fact that Romans did crucify criminals. 
 
Israel did have 12 tribes, thus Jesus chose 12 disciples, 1 for each tribe. 
 
Jesus' virgin birth, death and resurrection were mentioned in the Hebrew bible, the Old Testament, many centuries before they were mentioned in the Gospels.  So Christianity did not need to borrow anything from any pagan religion. 
 
It is a historical fact that Christianity spread like fire in the first century, and that both Jews and the Roman empire where trying to quench this fire.  Yet, there is not a single historical record from either Romans or Jews that tries to disprove Christianity by tying it to ancient, pagan religions or pagan gods.   The Romans especially were very familiar with these pagan gods and religions mentioned in the movie.
 
There are well known, well respected, non-Christian historians of the 1st century who do mention Jesus in their writings, outside of the Bible.  And this was several centuries before the birth of the Roman Catholic Church.  I have already mentioned them in this thread.
 
The movie is very bias.  It starts off by saying that all religions are bad and invented to control people, then it proceeds to spend a long time trying to disprove Christianity and some time trying to disprove Judaism.  Now, I'm okay with that, but I was waiting for them to move on to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.  But they never did.  Their sole purpose was to attack Judeo-Christian beliefs, because this movie has a political agenda.
 
usmokepole,
Now, here is something very interesting.  The first part of the movie is spent trying to discredit Judeo-Christian beliefs, but at the very end, they say that it is a fact that the world is moving as we speak toward a one world government with a one world leader.  They say that this one world government is going to inject us all with a microchip ID.  They say that if a person does not want to submit to this one world government, this one world leader will simply turn off that person's microchip ID.

Did you know that the Bible and Christianity predict that in the end times there will be a one world government and a one world leader?  That this world leader, the anti-Christ, will make everybody submit to him by giving them a mark.

Revelation 13:16-18
"16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
 18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."

[DK II]

you guys need to fuck more. 

[homer77]

loco-  i agree with the agenda in the movie, but they do bring up some insightful things.  i am going to continue to research all the ideas in the movie on my own.  i am perticularly interested in the astrology related to different historical saviors and prophets.  i do find it hard to believe the inside job thing.  what happened to the family members who died that day on the flights?  were they made up?  i do think that the powers that be have an agenda to better themselves.  imperialism- the dark side!!!!
anyway that was not the purpose of this thread.  its faith.
so i started from the beginning of the bible.  i already have questions.  in ch 1 god created everything and on the 6th he made man.  later in ch2 it goes into adam.  now was man made 1st and then adam made to tend the garden?  cause that would make sense.  later after cain killed able cain said he could not wonder the earth because people would kill or harm him.  now if adam was first what people would harm him?!!!!!!   any bible scholars out there? 

and i do fu@# enough!!!!  my wife is very giving 

[Hustle Man]

hi,
i have been dealing with this issue for some time now.   i was raised "born again" christian since the age of 2.  I have learned much throught the years.  I have watched how the church is run, how people act, the teachings of the bible, and the whole social interaction/ production of the church.  i enjoy learning and sharing all points of view.  i see that there are many faiths of the world and everyone thinks they are right mostly because they were raised that way.  there are converts who are trying to find their way or faith too. who's to say who is right and who is wrong?!  why do people die everyday in the name of faith?!  i do believe that there is an allmighty power or god who created everything- the unmoved mover (st thomas aquinas).  maybe god is just an engraved part of my personality or subconsious that my parents put there.  they would freakin flip if they heard this.  then again i have been sticking them with tough faith questions for years.  the toughest one was speaking in tongues.  evry week i got to church and immidiatly there are people speaking in tongues.  in the bible it says thjat the holy spirit consumed them and they were actually speaking real languages.  what i hear each week is mubbling and tongue twisting blaber.  its non sense.  is the holy spirit really making them do that as soon as they walk into service.  my parents responce was "its just our prayer language".  and what exact language is that?!  ohh shatabababa ba da - umcomadadadada.  sorry- i have watched and learned how people fall into the act and group think. 
the teachings of the vivle or any book of faith was written by man.  how do we really know they were inspired by god?  the creator of the mormon faith was inspired.  have you ever heard that story?! 
the bible- old testament- i truely feel they are tall tales.  they were not written until hundreds to thousands of years later.  over they years stories get greater and greater.  and who knows what the catholic church did to the bible during the middle ages and the reformation.  they were to power in europe and people in power would do any thing to make things go their way. 

wow, i am ranting now.  any one else share my frustration? 
dont go attacking me now.  its just whats been battling in my head. 

Homer77 do not feel alone with this issue, every Christian I know has battled with this question at some point and time in there walk. I will take some time to read through the thread (in particular your post) and try to add something that may be of some encouragement to you. Remember brother, you are not alone in this! Brb

[MCWAY]

Theres one thing i wanna make clear though, about the same believe that HOMER77 and i have about the bible being written by man. But i do read some versuses such as psalms, and a few others for strength, and inspiration, I got LEVITICUS 17:21 tattoed on my back. Alot of other stuff in there makes no sense, and is just too control man. Dont get me wrong there needs to be law and order but somethings in there too me are dehumanizing. Especially when it comes to SEX, thats a big no no to me. Yes, GOD doesnt want us to think SEX is absolutely everything in life, and doesnt want us to get AIDS or STDS, but SEX is just a part of life. Besides the physical pleasure, SEX is also about feelings and emotions, and connecting with the other person, and basically too me the bible wants us too feel guilty and wrong about having SEX, and having feelings and emotions. Again, very dehumanizing

Sex, per God's design, was to be manifested in marriage. (i.e. For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his WIFE and the two shall be come one flesh).

That's in Genesis.

Check out 1 Cor. 7:3-5

Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
  Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.


All the things you mentioned (feelings, emotions, connecting with the other) and one you forgot (having children) are all encompassed into the institituion of marriage.

It sounds as if you're upset, because the Bible isn't giving you license to fornicate or commit adultery. Anything that the Bible says negatively about sex involves sex OUTSIDE of marriage.

BTW - How you get "Leviticus 17:21"? That chapter only has 16 verses.

[MCWAY]

Man, that was a very long movie, but I did watch the whole thing, from the very beginning to the very end.  Here are my thoughts.
 
This movie is bias and it has a political agenda.  This movie is entertaining, but it's just a movie full of conspiracy theories, Jesus is a myth, Christianity was created to control people, 911 and Pearl Harbor were inside jobs, all Americans are slaves of the US Central bank, Bush signed an agreement with Canada and Mexico to unite North America and replace the dollar with a common currency and do away with the American Constitution, etc.  None of it can be taken seriously.
 
As for Jesus being a myth based on ancient pagan gods, the Gospels do not say that Jesus was born on December 25.
 
The Gospels do not say that Jesus was visited by 3 kings, but by some wise men. 
 
It is a fact that Romans did crucify criminals. 
 
Israel did have 12 tribes, thus Jesus chose 12 disciples, 1 for each tribe. 
 
Jesus' virgin birth, death and resurrection were mentioned in the Hebrew bible, the Old Testament, many centuries before they were mentioned in the Gospels.  So Christianity did not need to borrow anything from any pagan religion. 
 
It is a historical fact that Christianity spread like fire in the first century, and that both Jews and the Roman empire where trying to quench this fire.  Yet, there is not a single historical record from either Romans or Jews that tries to disprove Christianity by tying it to ancient, pagan religions or pagan gods.   The Romans especially were very familiar with these pagan gods and religions mentioned in the movie.

The core of Christianity is the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one Christian scholar said, all the enemies of early Christianity had to do to quench the fire, as you put it, was to produce Jesus' dead body. They knew who the prime suspects were: The disciples. Remember that they ran like scalded dogs and didn't believe that Jesus had risen. The women went to the tomb, with the purpose of completing the burial process.


One show I recommend seeing is Who is This Jesus? Is He Risen?. It usually airs around Easter time, on any network that broadcasts The Coral Ridge Hour, with D. James Kennedy.
 

There are well known, well respected, non-Christian historians of the 1st century who do mention Jesus in their writings, outside of the Bible.  And this was several centuries before the birth of the Roman Catholic Church.  I have already mentioned them in this thread.
 
The movie is very bias.  It starts off by saying that all religions are bad and invented to control people, then it proceeds to spend a long time trying to disprove Christianity and some time trying to disprove Judaism.  Now, I'm okay with that, but I was waiting for them to move on to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.  But they never did.  Their sole purpose was to attack Judeo-Christian beliefs, because this movie has a political agenda.
 
usmokepole,
Now, here is something very interesting.  The first part of the movie is spent trying to discredit Judeo-Christian beliefs, but at the very end, they say that it is a fact that the world is moving as we speak toward a one world government with a one world leader.  They say that this one world government is going to inject us all with a microchip ID.  They say that if a person does not want to submit to this one world government, this one world leader will simply turn off that person's microchip ID.

Did you know that the Bible and Christianity predict that in the end times there will be a one world government and a one world leader?  That this world leader, the anti-Christ, will make everybody submit to him by giving them a mark.

Revelation 13:16-18
"16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
 18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."

The irony of all this is that the some of the godless folks, who cry about religion trying to control people are attempting to do the very same thing themselves. They want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life.

[OzmO]

 
The irony of all this is that the some of the godless folks, who cry about religion trying to control people are attempting to do the very same thing themselves. They want other men to think like them, to adopt their ideals and philosophies and put them to practice within our everyday life.

I disagree.

Are they erecting churches?

Are they telling you, you will go to hell if you do _____________?

Are they telling you, you will go to hell of you don't do ____________?

Are they collecting donations?

Are they soliciting followers door to door?

Are they telling you will go to hell if you follow a certain religion?

NO, all see is these people calling BS where it's warranted:  Organized Religion

[Dos Equis]

Nothing wrong with organized religion.  It's actually part of the backbone of our society. 

I attended a troop homecoming last week and one of the Army chaplains gave an invocation.  We have hundreds of chaplains serving on active duty.  As I was driving off the base I passed a very large church and recalled that most, if not all, military bases have at least one and probably multiple churches.  Big part of our community. 

It's men who fail, not organized religion. 

[OzmO]

Nothing wrong with organized religion.  It's actually part of the backbone of our society. 

I attended a troop homecoming last week and one of the Army chaplains gave an invocation.  We have hundreds of chaplains serving on active duty.  As I was driving off the base I passed a very large church and recalled that most, if not all, military bases have at least one and probably multiple churches.  Big part of our community. 

It's men who fail, not organized religion. 

unfortunately, organized religion with all the good it does do, doesn't exists without man.

[Dos Equis]

unfortunately, organized religion with all the good it does do, doesn't exists without man.

Neither does our system of government, our legal system, etc.  We have a terrific democracy, but men screw it up.  That doesn't make democracy bad.  Same is true of organized religion.

[OzmO]

Neither does our system of government, our legal system, etc.  We have a terrific democracy, but men screw it up.  That doesn't make democracy bad.  Same is true of organized religion.

ahhh yes,  if only the world was perfect.   

[Dos Equis]

ahhh yes,  if only the world was perfect.   

But it isn't, which is why we shouldn't put our faith in men, including "men of God." 

[OzmO]

But it isn't, which is why we shouldn't put our faith in men, including "men of God." 

Yes, i agree with that.

[homer77]

religion seems to be the backbone of most societies around the world.  but they all differ.  still i say - who is right and who is wrong?  i keep digging into this topic and what i mostly find is one sect or religion trying to disprove the other.  the basics are that historical data is not 100% sound. 
i believe in G-d.  i had a very long dispute about it in a college philosophy class.  the philisophical writtings both for and against a G-d were both very deep and well thought, but reading about st. thomas aquinas and his "unmoved mover" made things clear to me. 
so, how do we pray or follow this G-d? 
i have also been looking at the athiest views.  they try to disprove everything with science.  they make valid points, but remember we cant comprehend everything.  we exist in time and space.  There could be so much more to existance than that.  i hae trouble understanding that the universe never ends?  G-d is infinant and has no relation to time.  we are stuck in our little minds way of experiencing life. 
anyway,  the quest for truth continues.....

[Butterbean]

homer77, have you tried getting on your knees and sincerely praying to God that you want to feel the presence of HIs Holy Spirit?   Do you usually feel the Holy Spirit when you pray?  If not, have you ever?

Some things you have addressed perplex me just as they perplex you, such as the speaking in tongues or "prayer language."   I may start a different thread about those.  There are some who say that speaking in tongues no longer occurs (was just at Pentecost) especially if there is no interpreter.  But I have a good friend whose husband says he has a "prayer language" and I have no reason to doubt him.  It's interesting.  We shouldn't "put God in a box" but I guess I just need to learn more about it.

[Butterbean]

To me all religions have the basic tenents, and if you step back and look you will see more of the same and less of the different.

AS, when you say "all religions" do you mean different religions or different Christianity-based Denominations? 

[MCWAY]

I disagree.

Are they erecting churches?

Are they telling you, you will go to hell if you do _____________?

Are they telling you, you will go to hell of you don't do ____________?

Are they collecting donations?

Are they soliciting followers door to door?

Are they telling you will go to hell if you follow a certain religion?

NO, all see is these people calling BS where it's warranted:  Organized Religion

Since when is engaging in those specific acts required to "control people"?

[Straw Man]

hi,
i have been dealing with this issue for some time now.   i was raised "born again" christian since the age of 2.  I have learned much throught the years.  I have watched how the church is run, how people act, the teachings of the bible, and the whole social interaction/ production of the church.  i enjoy learning and sharing all points of view.  i see that there are many faiths of the world and everyone thinks they are right mostly because they were raised that way.  there are converts who are trying to find their way or faith too. who's to say who is right and who is wrong?!  why do people die everyday in the name of faith?!  i do believe that there is an allmighty power or god who created everything- the unmoved mover (st thomas aquinas).  maybe god is just an engraved part of my personality or subconsious that my parents put there.  they would freakin flip if they heard this.  then again i have been sticking them with tough faith questions for years.  the toughest one was speaking in tongues.  evry week i got to church and immidiatly there are people speaking in tongues.  in the bible it says thjat the holy spirit consumed them and they were actually speaking real languages.  what i hear each week is mubbling and tongue twisting blaber.  its non sense.  is the holy spirit really making them do that as soon as they walk into service.  my parents responce was "its just our prayer language".  and what exact language is that?!  ohh shatabababa ba da - umcomadadadada.  sorry- i have watched and learned how people fall into the act and group think. 
the teachings of the vivle or any book of faith was written by man.  how do we really know they were inspired by god?  the creator of the mormon faith was inspired.  have you ever heard that story?! 
the bible- old testament- i truely feel they are tall tales.  they were not written until hundreds to thousands of years later.  over they years stories get greater and greater.  and who knows what the catholic church did to the bible during the middle ages and the reformation.  they were to power in europe and people in power would do any thing to make things go their way. 

wow, i am ranting now.  any one else share my frustration? 
dont go attacking me now.  its just whats been battling in my head. 

Check this out:  http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1159

[OzmO]

Since when is engaging in those specific acts required to "control people"?

By the very assertion:

If you do or don't do this you will get this.

Religion promotes this, establishes institutions, buildings etc... all centered around attracting followers to be saved or what have you.

Religions use the fear of total death and the promise of an afterlife to motivate you to "do" or "don't" do certain things.  That is control and and a form of manipulation.

Atheists do nothing of the sort.   They don;t try and convert you to atheism they merely tell you what they think.  You don;t see atheists preaching, converting, promising etc...

that's the difference, that's why I disagree with your post and believe it's way off base.

[Butterbean]

Atheists do nothing of the sort.   They don;t try and convert you to atheism they merely tell you what they think.  You don;t see atheists preaching, converting, promising etc...

I've had a very intelligent atheist try to "convert" me to atheism.  She "preached" at me about it but you're right, she had no promises to offer.

She eventually became a believer  

[OzmO]

I've had a very intelligent atheist try to "convert" me to atheism.  She "preached" at me about it but you're right, she had no promises to offer.

She eventually became a believer  

Did she invite you to her atheist church?   

I believe an atheist is potentially a strong believer in God.  And i do agree with the assertion that a person's intelligence can hinder them from discovering God or god finding them.

[homer77]

homer77, have you tried getting on your knees and sincerely praying to God that you want to feel the presence of HIs Holy Spirit?   Do you usually feel the Holy Spirit when you pray?  If not, have you ever?
 especially if there is no interpreter.  But I have a good friend whose husband says he has a "prayer language" and I have no reason to doubt him.  It's interesting.  We shouldn't "put God in a box" but I guess I just need to learn more about it.

yes i have.  i have always felt like i was doing something wrong.  as i said i was raised in a christian house.  church 3 times a week!  never felt the holy spirit.  i have felt bthe A/C turn on during convienient times during service.  and the whole prayer language thing is crap.  doubt it!  i have learned more than most people learn about christianity.  not only have i learned the doctrine, but the stupid social aspects as well. 

[homer77]

Check this out:  http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1159

that was good.  very similar to the beliefs of the jews and noahides.

[Straw Man]

that was good.  very similar to the beliefs of the jews and noahides.

I can also see a comparison with Buddhism (Pearson seems to have had a transcendental breakthrough) with Jesus in the role of the Bodhisattva

Whatever ones beliefs it's definitely an interesting story and worth the hour to listen