questioning my faith

[loco]

Communist countries cannot tolerate the citizens/captives believing in any power that's higher then "THE STATE"

It's really no more complicated than that

Thus, they control people.

Right, intolerance, the very same thing that Christians are accused of by some.

What you say above, along with their persecutions, their tortures and their murders is the "reason", "rationality", "enligthment" that atheists speak of?

[OzmO]

Loco and Straw,

The difference between a communists state not acknowledging religious beliefs or persecuting people who practice religion, Atheism, and organized religion iare as follows:

-  Organize religion holds eternity (afterlife) over your head as a way of controlling how you live.

-  Atheism does not do that.  all they say is that you don't have to do those things (dogma or rules on living) for the reasons religion tells you becuase there is no god.

-  Communism is not atheism.    let's NOT confuse the 2!!!!!    They forbid organized religion because it will eventually threaten their form of government.  You can be communist and believe what ever you like.

[Straw Man]

Loco and Straw,

The difference between a communists state not acknowledging religious beliefs or persecuting people who practice religion, Atheism, and organized religion iare as follows:

-  Organize religion holds eternity (afterlife) over your head as a way of controlling how you live.

-  Atheism does not do that.  all they say is that you don't have to do those things (dogma or rules on living) for the reasons religion tells you becuase there is no god.

-  Communism is not atheism.    let's NOT confuse the 2!!!!!    They forbid organized religion because it will eventually threaten their form of government.  You can be communist and believe what ever you like.

aren't we essentionally saying the same thing?

[OzmO]

aren't we essentionally saying the same thing?

Yep we are.   

[OzmO]

I agree that some religions do "tell a person how to live to gain entrance into heaven or be cast down to hell"  but Christianity is not one of them.

Christianity is about grace.  The bible teaches there is no way we can live our lives to be good enough to "gain entrance to heaven" as you say.  It says "We are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast." EPH 2:8,9

Does the bible tell us how we should live?  Yes, in order to have a more fulfilling and more trouble-free life, but it does not say we have to live in a certain way to "gain entrance to heaven" because according to the bible that is impossible.



OzmO, it seems that you dislike "religion" and I agree.  But it also seems like you don't like the idea of God's Grace (Christianity).  What do you think the proper requirements would be to "gain entrance to heaven?"

Do sins you commit prevent you from getting into heaven?

That is the root of the control mechanism religion offers. 

Grace is identified in many Religions and starts with the desire to change one's life.  But the facts are, as the Pastor who demonstrated for us so well, it's no  different.  People are weak and grace doesn't stop them from sinning.  If he wasn't caught, he'd still doing all those things.   

OzmO, it seems that you dislike "religion" and I agree.  But it also seems like you don't like the idea of God's Grace (Christianity).  What do you think the proper requirements would be to "gain entrance to heaven?"

It's just that i don't think GOD's grace is exclusive to the Christian belief of it's occurrence.  God's grace does work the way the Christians say it does, but it also works for all other religion's.  It's more spiritual than anything, the desire to better your self to come to terms with your weaknesses and surrender to GOD's direction that channels from your heart.  (loco, might say that a child molester feels in his heart that what he's doing is right, but that desire to have sex with a child is wrong and that person knows it....  as he'll likely use his culture to justify his actions)

I believe we will judge ourselves in death as we will face the truth of our lives without the masks of perceptions we chose to cover it with.  For example:  A person will feel the pain of the pain he/she has caused others in their life.  And for some they will not be able to recover from that and it will keep them from Heaven and they may exist in their own personal hell.

When we harm or cause pain for selfish reasons it takes away from us spiritually i believe.  At some point our souls will not be able to recover from it. 

When it comes to actions  that do not produce victims like consensual safe sex between adults i don;t believe that's a sin or something bad what so ever.  But adultery is bad becuase you hurt partner in breaking the commitment you made to them.  And that goes to with much of this little crap like taking a pencil from work.  How about misleading thousands as to your salvation and honor as a pastor only to be exposed as having sex with a man and doing drugs?  That causes much harm to people.

But like most of this i certainly don't have all the answers.  this is just what i happen to believe.  the best i can do, is live by the golden rule:  Do onto others....

I do firmly know and believe the Bible is not the 100% word of God.  I do firmly believe God guides our lives and removes fear if you let him.

[loco]

It's more spiritual than anything, the desire to better your self to come to terms with your weaknesses and surrender to GOD's direction that channels from your heart.  (loco, might say that a child molester feels in his heart that what he's doing is right, but that desire to have sex with a child is wrong and that person knows it....  as he'll likely use his culture to justify his actions)

OzmO, I didn't say it.  It's a historical fact.  So much for "follow your own heart."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece

Greek pederasty, as idealised by the Greeks from Archaic times onward, was a relationship and bond between an adolescent boy and an adult man outside of his immediate family, and was constructed initially as an aristocratic moral and educational institution.  As such, it was seen by the Greeks as an essential element in their culture from the time of Homer onwards.

The erastes-eromenos relationship was fundamental to the Classical Greek social and educational system, had its own complex social-sexual etiquette and was an important social institution among the upper class.[15] Pederastic relationships were dyadic mentorships. These mentorships were sanctioned by the state, as evidenced by laws mandating and controlling such relationships.

Poets such as Theognis and Anacreon self-identify as pederasts, each thus presenting a persona embodying his own ideals for the tradition. In the case of Theognis, pederasty is political and pedagogical — the elite male's method of passing on his wisdom and loyalties to his beloved. Anacreon's values are erotic and Dionysiac, which is to say sensual and spiritual, and no less ideal than those of Theognis. Vase iconography of the period is consistent with this interpretation: the gifts offered, and the context of the palaestra speak of pedagogic values, while the repeated inscriptions of "KALOS" idealize the beauty and physical attraction of the erōmenos (the beloved boy).

http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/pederasty.html

Pederasty (or Greek Paederasteia) is the erotic relationship between an adult male and a boy, generally one between the ages of twelve and seventeen, in which the older partner is attracted to the younger one who returns his affection.

Such relationships were widespread in ancient Greece, so much so that Plato called the relationship the feature that distinguished Hellenistic civilization from "barbarian" cultures.

William Percy, one of the more recent scholars on the topic, believes the custom was not institutionalized in Greece until the seventh century B. C. E.

Many scholars who acknowledge the existence of Greek pederasty are unwilling to look upon it as involving sexual activity. Some couples undoubtedly limited their physical contact to the gymnasia--wrestling, reclining together on couches, but not going beyond kissing and fondling. Some presumably ejaculated between the thighs or buttocks of the boys, yet others, perhaps most, penetrated their lover anally. Such activities appear on vase or other paintings.

Among the Sambia of Papua New Guinea, pederasty is a traditional practice. In this society, the ingestion of semen via fellatio is believed essential for a boy's proper masculine development. The boys are inseminated from about age eight until around age fifteen, then they become inseminators until they are married, at which time they cease regular same-sex sexual practices.

Although most pederastic relationships are consensual, and often involve mentoring and support for the youthful partner from the adult, there is nearly always a power imbalance that makes such relationships unequal. Many adults who had such relationships in their adolescence remember them fondly. Not all do.

[OzmO]

OzmO, I didn't say it.  It's a historical fact.  So much for "follow your own heart."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece
http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/pederasty.html

Hey loco,  if you can't tell that there is something very wrong with having sex with children then you are a very out of touch lost soul.  (of course not you loco, the people having sex with kids back then.)

Try and tell me how a 10 old boy enjoys getting sodomized.  And then explain how the person sodomizing the 10 year old boy doesn't see he's performing an act the boy doesn't want.

p.s. something you need to remember loco when comparing the age of Greece (300 b.c. or so) with making points about how culture sets morals.  the same people who thought sex with boys was OK also had no problem enslaving people, killing people for no reason, rape etc...   It was a violent barbaric world, but  becuase of the culture you were condition to be indifferent to that kind of suffering.....you probably had inklings early on that what you were doing, enslaving, boy sex etc... was wrong but you decided to go with the flow of the culture.   there in lies time in that person's life where GOD  was shut out.

[loco]

you are a very out of touch lost soul.

Thanks! God bless you too, OzmO!   

Hey loco,  if you can't tell that there is something very wrong with having sex with children then you are a very out of touch lost soul.  (of course not you loco, the people having sex with kids back then.)

OzmO, 
Having sex with boys is wrong, very very wrong.   God condemns it, in His Word, The Bible.  It is harmful for the boy and for society in general.  I personally have no desire to have sex with a child of any gender, and I have no desire to have sex with a male of any age.  But the Bible condemns having sex with boys anyway and that settles it. 

That is my point, OzmO. Read the websites.  Their hearts told these men that it was okay back then.  Their hearts tell these men that it is okay today.  Still today, many men are told by their own hearts that there is nothing wrong with having sex with boys.  These men believe that, just as you are born with a desire to have sex with adult women, they too are born with a desire to have sex with male adolescents.  They believe that the practice should be institutionalized in the West.  They  believe it is a good way to educate young boys and to prepare them for adulthood.  They view Judeo-Christian values and morals as the only thing standing in their way.  That's what happens when societies set their own standards.

Outside the Greek Tradition

Pederastic relationships are known outside of the Greek tradition, and there are many societies in which the principal homosexual love object for males is the adolescent boy. Such relationships have been known in Korea, Japan, China, and many of the Islamic countries where contact between males and females was limited.

Among the Sambia of Papua New Guinea, pederasty is a traditional practice. In this society, the ingestion of semen via fellatio is believed essential for a boy's proper masculine development. The boys are inseminated from about age eight until around age fifteen, then they become inseminators until they are married, at which time they cease regular same-sex sexual practices.

Pederasty in the West

In the West, the relationship between the predominantly androphilic homophile movement and the pederasts has been contentious. Though some in the American gay community welcomed what they called boy lovers, most excluded them for political if no other reasons.

In Germany a separate pederastic-oriented movement, the Gemeinschaft der Eigenen (Community of the Exceptional), was organized at the turn into the twentieth century and created its own literature. One of the first writers of note was the anarchist John Henry Mackay who, writing under the pseudonym of Sagitta, composed a whole series of books in defense of boy love at the beginning of the twentieth century. Adolf Brand and Benedict Friedlaender and to a lesser extent Hans Blüher also wrote about pederastic love in German.

In England and America, in the period from the end of the Victorian era to the period between the World Wars, a pederastic-oriented poetic movement developed, now known as the Uranian Poets. These writers turned to the extensive pederastic literature of the ancient world for inspiration, but focused on the trials, tribulations, challenges, and rewards of boy love in a Christian society intolerant of their love.

In the United States, J.Z. Eglinton's Greek Love (1964) defended the rights of pederasts. Beginning in the 1950s local groups in the Netherlands and in Scandinavia, West Germany, Belgium, and Switzerland appeared. From 1987 to 1997 a scholarly journal, Paidika, edited by Joseph Geraci, was published in the Netherlands. The journal, after years of harassment, concluded its ten years of publication with a book-length final edition.

Try and tell me how a 10 old boy enjoys getting sodomized.  And then explain how the person sodomizing the 10 year old boy doesn't see he's performing an act the boy doesn't want.

Why would I try to tell you that?  I agree with you OzmO.  Of course some boys didn't enjoy it, and neither would I have enjoyed it had it happened to me, but in most cases, it was consensual.  Many boys did enjoy it, while others simply did not mind.  Why?  One reason is probably because society put it in their minds that it was okay.  But that doesn't make it right.  God sets the standard, not society. 

We are not talking about rape here.  These same men would agree that rape is wrong no matter the age or the gender.  These men believe that consensual sex with boys is okay and should be institutionalized.

Although most pederastic relationships are consensual, and often involve mentoring and support for the youthful partner from the adult, there is nearly always a power imbalance that makes such relationships unequal. Many adults who had such relationships in their adolescence remember them fondly. Not all do.

So much for "It is immoral only if it produces a victim.  Otherwise it is good."  OzmO, you are a good guy and you mean well, but it is not as simple as you make it out to be.  God sets the standards, not men, not society.

Many adults who had such relationships in their adolescence remember them fondly.

p.s. something you need to remember loco when comparing the age of Greece (300 b.c. or so) with making points about how culture sets morals.  the same people who thought sex with boys was OK also had no problem enslaving people, killing people for no reason, rape etc...   It was a violent barbaric world, but  becuase of the culture you were condition to be indifferent to that kind of suffering.....you probably had inklings early on that what you were doing, enslaving, boy sex etc... was wrong but you decided to go with the flow of the culture.   there in lies time in that person's life where GOD  was shut out.

It still happens today, OzmO.  Men still believe today, with all their heart, that it is moral, that they were born like that, that the practice should be institutionalised, and they believe that it is good for the boy and for society.  The practice may be illegal in the west, but not everywhere in the world today.  Yet another of many reasons why some atheists are set on pushing atheism.  Once Judeo-Christian morality is out of the way, awful things like this, in their minds, can and will be allowed in modern society.  That's what happens when society sets their own standards.

Pederastic relationships are known outside of the Greek tradition, and there are many societies in which the principal homosexual love object for males is the adolescent boy. Such relationships have been known in Korea, Japan, China, and many of the Islamic countries where contact between males and females was limited.

Among the Sambia of Papua New Guinea, pederasty is a traditional practice. In this society, the ingestion of semen via fellatio is believed essential for a boy's proper masculine development. The boys are inseminated from about age eight until around age fifteen, then they become inseminators until they are married, at which time they cease regular same-sex sexual practices.

Pederasty in the West

In the West, the relationship between the predominantly androphilic homophile movement and the pederasts has been contentious. Though some in the American gay community welcomed what they called boy lovers, most excluded them for political if no other reasons.

In Germany a separate pederastic-oriented movement, the Gemeinschaft der Eigenen (Community of the Exceptional), was organized at the turn into the twentieth century and created its own literature. One of the first writers of note was the anarchist John Henry Mackay who, writing under the pseudonym of Sagitta, composed a whole series of books in defense of boy love at the beginning of the twentieth century. Adolf Brand and Benedict Friedlaender and to a lesser extent Hans Blüher also wrote about pederastic love in German.

In England and America, in the period from the end of the Victorian era to the period between the World Wars, a pederastic-oriented poetic movement developed, now known as the Uranian Poets. These writers turned to the extensive pederastic literature of the ancient world for inspiration, but focused on the trials, tribulations, challenges, and rewards of boy love in a Christian society intolerant of their love.

In the United States, J.Z. Eglinton's Greek Love (1964) defended the rights of pederasts. Beginning in the 1950s local groups in the Netherlands and in Scandinavia, West Germany, Belgium, and Switzerland appeared. From 1987 to 1997 a scholarly journal, Paidika, edited by Joseph Geraci, was published in the Netherlands. The journal, after years of harassment, concluded its ten years of publication with a book-length final edition.

[OzmO]

Thanks! God bless you too, OzmO!   

OzmO, 
Having sex with boys is wrong, very very wrong.   God condemns it, in His Word, The Bible.  It is harmful for the boy and for society in general.  I personally have no desire to have sex with a child of any gender, and I have no desire to have sex with a male of any age.  But the Bible condemns having sex with boys anyway and that settles it. 

That is my point, OzmO. Read the websites.  Their hearts told these men that it was okay back then.  Their hearts tell these men that it is okay today.  Still today, many men are told by their own hearts that there is nothing wrong with having sex with boys.  These men believe that, just as you are born with a desire to have sex with adult women, they too are born with a desire to have sex with male adolescents.  They believe that the practice should be institutionalized in the West.  They  believe it is a good way to educate young boys and to prepare them for adulthood.  They view Judeo-Christian values and morals as the only thing standing in their way.  That's what happens when societies set their own standards.


Why would I try to tell you that?  I agree with you OzmO.  Of course some boys didn't enjoy it, and neither would I have enjoyed it had it happened to me, but in most cases, it was consensual.  Many boys did enjoy it, while others simply did not mind.  Why?  One reason is probably because society put it in their minds that it was okay.  But that doesn't make it right.  God sets the standard, not society. 

We are not talking about rape here.  These same men would agree that rape is wrong no matter the age or the gender.  These men believe that consensual sex with boys is okay and should be institutionalized.

So much for "It is immoral only if it produces a victim.  Otherwise it is good."  OzmO, you are a good guy and you mean well, but it is not as simple as you make it out to be.  God sets the standards, not men, not society.
It still happens today, OzmO.  Men still believe today, with all their heart, that it is moral, that they were born like that, that the practice should be institutionalised, and they believe that it is good for the boy and for society.  The practice may be illegal in the west, but not everywhere in the world today.  Yet another of many reasons why some atheists are set on pushing atheism.  Once Judeo-Christian morality is out of the way, awful things like this, in their minds, can and will be allowed in modern society.  That's what happens when society sets their own standards.

You can dig as much internet references on man boy love in Greece as much as you want, but you can not tell me for one minute the boys desired it.  The men who did it knew it was wrong but justified it with their culture.  Anything written back then will most certainly justify the act.

I'm sorry you have so little faith in what GOD created (man).  I do.  He did not create a lost weak minded creature who couldn't tell right from wrong.  Sorry you see his creation that way.

[loco]

You can dig as much internet references on man boy love in Greece as much as you want

I actually did not have to dig anything up.  These are facts of History and Sociology.  If you want to deny these facts simply because they do not fit your belief system, that is your choice.

You are welcome to "dig up" your own evidence to refute History and Sociology.  Don't argue with me.  Argue with them.

, but you can not tell me for one minute the boys desired it.  The men who did it knew it was wrong but justified it with their culture.  Anything written back then will most certainly justify the act.

No I cannot tell you and I have not told you anything.  The evidence speaks for itself.  This still happens today in some societies.  It is not limited to the past and it is not limited to Greek society.

They follow their hearts, they believe that they were born like that.  They believe that it is moral.  Don't argue with me.  Argue with them.

I'm sorry you have so little faith in what GOD created (man).  I do.  He did not create a lost weak minded creature who couldn't tell right from wrong.  Sorry you see his creation that way.

I have faith in God.  You have faith in men, and men have failed you miserably. 

Our minds and spirit may be strong, but our flesh is weak.

We do have a conscience.  We do know good from evil, for the most part.  But we still need God's word for guidance.  God still sets the standards, not us, not society.

God has taken humanity through stages, for a reason.  From the time of Adam and Eve to the time of Moses, humans knew right from wrong, but had no written law from God.  We had a conscience then, and we have conscience now.  But we still failed miserably.  Then God gave the written law to set the standard, but we still failed miserably.

Then came the knew covenant which was foretold in the Old Testament.  God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins.  Now, if you believe in Jesus Christ, you will receive the Holy Spirit.  Then and only then will God be within you, and you will have forgiveness of sin and eternal life too.

"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Ephesians 1:13

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" Acts 1:8

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:26

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
Romans 8:9

[OzmO]

They follow their hearts, they believe that they were born like that.  They believe that it is moral.  Don't argue with me.  Argue with them.

this is where we are not communicating well.   they do not follow their hearts, they are following their sexual desires.

I have faith in God.  You have faith in men, and men have failed you miserably. 

No i have faith in God's creation and our potential as a species for progressive development.   You can see this development if you study history. 

Our minds and spirit may be strong, but our flesh is weak.

I agree.  And our challenge for growth spiritually is the controlling of our flesh.  But the "Christian Version" is to deny our desires and makes us ashamed of it.   

We do have a conscience.  We do know good from evil, for the most part.  But we still need God's word for guidance.  God still sets the standards, not us, not society.

Like the standard of slavery loco?

God's word we need, yes.  God's word is not the Bible.  The Bible is man's interpretation of events out together by a group of men who were starting a new religion.

God has taken humanity through stages, for a reason.  From the time of Adam and Eve to the time of Moses, humans knew right from wrong, but had no written law from God.  We had a conscience then, and we have conscience now.  But we still failed miserably.  Then God gave the written law to set the standard, but we still failed miserably.

I'm not saying we don't need laws.  I'm saying with in us lies the power to do the right thing and that we in the end don't need laws.  the problem is there is lots of people who are not strong enough or not in touch with God enough ( in them selves or what have you), who have disconnected from their souls who do things to harm others.

You know the funny thing, loco, is that if we take our debate of the Bible being the word of God, out of our discussion we'd probably agree on most everything.   

[loco]

You are a good man, OzmO!  We'll continue this later.  Have a great weekend!