Author Topic: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???  (Read 13756 times)

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2007, 06:08:09 PM »
And you don't think that hospital tried to collect from the guy or his insurer?  They just don't give that shit away..
They didn't. When they asked about it they laughed at him and said this isn't America.

Andre Nickatina

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2007, 06:31:41 PM »
Good thing you said that. In the movie an American breaks his arm in the UK and gets free medical care and a nights stay in the hospital.

 ;D

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2007, 06:50:04 PM »
;D
Hey man, if you want another conservative fundamentalist christian biggot in the white house be my guest. I plan on moving out of here as soon as possible if i can if things don't change for the better. Im so tired of this what would jesus do nonsense.

triple_pickle

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2007, 06:56:00 PM »
Hey man, if you want another conservative fundamentalist christian biggot in the white house be my guest. I plan on moving out of here as soon as possible if i can if things don't change for the better. Im so tired of this what would jesus do nonsense.

you think other countries are perfect?  you're in for a big surprise....

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2007, 07:13:49 PM »
you think other countries are perfect?  you're in for a big surprise....
Ohh i know they have there problems. I am a political science major so i know much of their problems. Germany for instance has a Neo Nazi party on the rise. Many of these Euro countries have problems with their arabian immigrants and want them out. England has some strange laws itself.

triple_pickle

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2007, 07:18:07 PM »
Ohh i know they have there problems. I am a political science major so i know much of their problems. Germany for instance has a Neo Nazi party on the rise. Many of these Euro countries have problems with their arabian immigrants and want them out. England has some strange laws itself.

cool, i am completing a ph.d. in poli sci with a focus on income redistribution policies and could talk for hours about various countries and their policies....

Bast000

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2007, 07:24:28 PM »
Michael Moore is right about everything except his optimism.   Americans care more about having more money then the health of another person.

triple_pickle

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2007, 07:26:57 PM »
Michael Moore is right about everything except his optimism.   Americans care more about having more money then the health of another person.

bast, it is true universally, not only in the united states

Fury

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2007, 07:29:29 PM »
Doctor's salarys are already decreasing by the year. If they make healthcare universal, then it should only get worse.

triple_pickle

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2007, 07:36:27 PM »
Doctor's salarys are already decreasing by the year. If they make healthcare universal, then it should only get worse.

if by "universal" you mean government-controlled/socialized, then salaries would most probably not go up and even go down in the long run because doctors' salaries would come from the governmental budget which is never big enough to pay all the state employees a decent salary.  in many countries with socialized medicine you simply either pay under the table to get preferential treatment, sometimes you even pay for simple things such as a hospital bed, or many physicians run their own private clinics after hours where you pay the market price and get treatment the american way, instantaneously.

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2007, 07:43:06 PM »
if by "universal" you mean government-controlled/socialized, then salaries would most probably not go up and even go down in the long run because doctors' salaries would come from the governmental budget which is never big enough to pay all the state employees a decent salary.  in many countries with socialized medicine you simply either pay under the table to get preferential treatment, sometimes you even pay for simple things such as a hospital bed, or many physicians run their own private clinics after hours where you pay the market price and get treatment the american way, instantaneously.
I know first hand that the health care system is in shambles. I have family members working in it.

Fury

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2007, 07:46:27 PM »
if by "universal" you mean government-controlled/socialized, then salaries would most probably not go up and even go down in the long run because doctors' salaries would come from the governmental budget which is never big enough to pay all the state employees a decent salary.  in many countries with socialized medicine you simply either pay under the table to get preferential treatment, sometimes you even pay for simple things such as a hospital bed, or many physicians run their own private clinics after hours where you pay the market price and get treatment the american way, instantaneously.

Yeah, and that would be absolutely foolish. It'd be funny to see healthcare go into the tubes when no one wants to be a doctor anymore.

Undercover Supp Guy

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2007, 07:48:53 PM »
They didn't. When they asked about it they laughed at him and said this isn't America.

Well luckily this is where you have to go back to Bodybuilding.  The year 1975 documented by the greatest film of all time aka "Pumping Iron".  Do you really think it was a documentary?  They even called it a docu-drama and it's really no different than the flic you saw.  The guy puts it up there, you watch it and then you decide what's real and what's bullshit.  Are you going to wait 25 years before they tell you the football throwing deal about the t'shirt was filmed a month after they left South Africa or are you going to make the decision today that something's rotten in Denmark.  

If that hospital didn't try to recover some $$ then the British don't just have bad teeth they're stupid too because somebody paid for that.  Most likely it goes like this, the Govt. has a budget for healthcare and healthcare uses that up but still Joe British Commoner is the one footing the bill.  Now relate that to the US where we take care of 20 Million or more no tax paying mother fuckers that have no right to be here but yet ultimately get free healthcare and other entitlement services reserved for Americans.  No way you could infuse an additional 10% of the UK's population that didn't pay taxes but yet took advantage of the services the Govt. offers without them having to change the rules around.

The_Leafy_Bug

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2007, 07:52:23 PM »
Well luckily this is where you have to go back to Bodybuilding.  The year 1975 documented by the greatest film of all time aka "Pumping Iron".  Do you really think it was a documentary?  They even called it a docu-drama and it's really no different than the flic you saw.  The guy puts it up there, you watch it and then you decide what's real and what's bullshit.  Are you going to wait 25 years before they tell you the football throwing deal about the t'shirt was filmed a month after they left South Africa or are you going to make the decision today that something's rotten in Denmark.  

If that hospital didn't try to recover some $$ then the British don't just have bad teeth they're stupid too because somebody paid for that.  Most likely it goes like this, the Govt. has a budget for healthcare and healthcare uses that up but still Joe British Commoner is the one footing the bill.  Now relate that to the US where we take care of 20 Million or more no tax paying mother fuckers that have no right to be here but yet ultimately get free healthcare and other entitlement services reserved for Americans.  No way you could infuse an additional 10% of the UK's population that didn't pay taxes but yet took advantage of the services the Govt. offers without them having to change the rules around.
True, but this is why you offer amnesty and let them repay there taxes instead of threatening to deport them. You damn conservatives keep them in the shadows and they will continue to live off our tax dollars. They way to help the poor is to bring them up. Not tax them out the ass and keep them in the dark. There will always be a lower class but you have to know how to use them. This isn't 17th century England where we try to get the most work out of people for the least pay and keep them poor.

Undercover Supp Guy

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2007, 08:04:18 PM »
True, but this is why you offer amnesty and let them repay there taxes instead of threatening to deport them. You damn conservatives keep them in the shadows and they will continue to live off our tax dollars. They way to help the poor is to bring them up. Not tax them out the ass and keep them in the dark. There will always be a lower class but you have to know how to use them. This isn't 17th century England where we try to get the most work out of people for the least pay and keep them poor.

Well I'm no more conservative than the next independant thinker, you give me a leader to vote for and I'll vote for him or her.  The way to equalize everything for everybody is get rid of the burden.  We tried amnesty 20 years ago with Reagan and now we're back with the same shit.  What're you going to do give amnesty every 20 years til we have a billion people because we'll be broke as fuck before that happens.  These fuckers don't payback anything nor will they ever so instead of letting them bankrupt you and you're family ship them back to where they came from and secure the country because that's really ultimately the only choice we have.  Now go tell that shit to your douchebag high school or college liberal wack job teacher.

Lee_a_priest

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2007, 08:31:58 PM »
IF anyone has seen the movie did you like it????? And regardless of wether or not your a Michael Moore fan. What are your views on health care...

Me personally, I'm a pre-health bio/physics major and a respectable college and I completely support universal health care. I wish we had a system that would blow everyones out of the water no no money.

And another question, do your think this topic is worth choosing a candidate for. How does this topic rate compaired to the war in Iraq

I COME FROM AUSTRALIA IT WORKS GREAT.....ALL ABOUT MONEY HERE....DAMN SHAME

willie mosconi

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2007, 08:36:26 PM »
Well I'm no more conservative than the next independant thinker, you give me a leader to vote for and I'll vote for him or her.  The way to equalize everything for everybody is get rid of the burden.  We tried amnesty 20 years ago with Reagan and now we're back with the same shit.  What're you going to do give amnesty every 20 years til we have a billion people because we'll be broke as fuck before that happens.  These fuckers don't payback anything nor will they ever so instead of letting them bankrupt you and you're family ship them back to where they came from and secure the country because that's really ultimately the only choice we have.  Now go tell that shit to your douchebag high school or college liberal wack job teacher.

problem is, how would be logistically go about doing this?

also, studies have indicated that the net economic effect of illegal immigration in the US may be positive or at least even. also, the children of the immigrants often go on to do bigger and better things than their parents.

Undercover Supp Guy

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2007, 08:46:55 PM »
I COME FROM AUSTRALIA IT WORKS GREAT.....ALL ABOUT MONEY HERE....DAMN SHAME

You pay 50% of your income in taxes homey plus only 20 million people in the whole country that's why your system works so great; we only pay 25%.  Immigration in Australia is almost zero and that among other things like koala bears, kangaroos and a shitload of national parks is why it is the greatest country on the planet.   

IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT MONEY $$ CHA CHING..


Undercover Supp Guy

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2007, 09:02:44 PM »
problem is, how would be logistically go about doing this?

also, studies have indicated that the net economic effect of illegal immigration in the US may be positive or at least even. also, the children of the immigrants often go on to do bigger and better things than their parents.

Yeah it'll be ugly no doubt but sooner or later somebody has to do it.  That person will probably become one of the greatest Presidents of all time, George Wash, Thomas J, Abraham Lincoln, FDR, JFK, Ronald Reagan... real leaders are hard to come by.

I like to say Fuck the Studies, studies don't mean shit.

Andre Nickatina

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2007, 09:38:43 PM »
Hey man, if you want another conservative fundamentalist christian biggot in the white house be my guest. I plan on moving out of here as soon as possible if i can if things don't change for the better. Im so tired of this what would jesus do nonsense.
I dont know what this means  :-\

el duke

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2007, 10:32:27 PM »
im happy this topic has intersest, no matter what side you are for, we are without a doubt the best country there this is bottom line!!!
 
But no matter what, look and democracy, the best thing ever, we should find a way with all the brilliant people we have here " because the best and the brightest do come to America" the revolutionize the health care system, i mean really turn it on its head!!!   health care for everone, super high standards, the whole deal.

And i do thing the way this will come is through dialogue. So no matter what your views are for everybody has got good points.

But the bottom line is a system is pretty messed up!
Some people do need help, and it seems like the working middle class is in need of the most, and were the majority! So putting people in office with big ideas that wanna get stuff done at home, not over seas. I don't wanna my army medics and doctors treating hurt iraqis when there a tons of people over here who need it more.

The True Adonis

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2007, 11:08:52 PM »
im happy this topic has intersest, no matter what side you are for, we are without a doubt the best country there this is bottom line!!!
 
But no matter what, look and democracy, the best thing ever, we should find a way with all the brilliant people we have here " because the best and the brightest do come to America" the revolutionize the health care system, i mean really turn it on its head!!!   health care for everone, super high standards, the whole deal.

And i do thing the way this will come is through dialogue. So no matter what your views are for everybody has got good points.

But the bottom line is a system is pretty messed up!
Some people do need help, and it seems like the working middle class is in need of the most, and were the majority! So putting people in office with big ideas that wanna get stuff done at home, not over seas. I don't wanna my army medics and doctors treating hurt iraqis when there a tons of people over here who need it more.
Sweden is a better country than the US.

Undercover Supp Guy

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2007, 11:35:45 PM »
Sweden is a better country than the US.

They have a lot of blonde chicks, not much diversity otherwise.  I dare you to make the move..

skillz

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2007, 11:58:46 PM »
Universal healthcare is not free. They'll just bump our taxes up. The middle class we'll be the ones getting fuked as usual.          Most pre-med students come to America to go to school not Canada or Australia.

climber

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Re: SICKO??? HEALTH CARE???
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2007, 12:21:53 AM »
This is what a physician in America has to say about the issue:

Pharma and the insurance industry are evil. Moreover in the case of the health insurance industry they serve no purpose. Previously insurers would assume risk and in doing so merit some financial reward. With the advent of capitation and risk selection, they don't even do that anymore. They are leeches, that in the words of Sicko: Flat Suck.

And I can also assure you that the denials of care that Moore described were not the exceptions, but the rule. I have a patient (whose details are a bit obscured in this story) who has a number of serious medical problems. He has a history of a bleeding ulcer and recently began to have symptoms that were the same as he'd had when he had the ulcer. So I prescribed a Proton Pump Inhibitor (the one that was the preferred drug on that insurer's formulary.) They denied it saying that he had reached the limit of the number of medicines he was allowed to have. In order to have the ulcer medicine he would have to go off of one of his diabetes, blood pressure, or asthma medicines or pay for one of them out of pocket.

And sorry, but the cries of 'socialized medicine' being worse than what we have are for shit. If everyone has the same insurance, then every doctor and hospital would take it. I transfer patients every day from the ER to other hospitals when mine is perfectly able to provide them treatment and the patients want to stay at my facility. But their insurer says they won't pay for them to stay to have their appendix removed at the community hospital in their town, but demands they be transfered to a facility 40 miles away that is 'in network.' Of course they can choose to stay if they want (and we would treat them as required by the EMTALA law.) However their insurer gives them the ultimatum: be sent to another hospital they don't want or be faced with the $30,000 bill for their surgery and recovery in the hospital they do want. So the claims of not being able to 'choose your doctor or hospital' are not what you'd have in a single payer system, but are what you get every day if you are insured under an HMO, PPO, or other device used by the insurance industry to deny you care.

And that is what its like for those with insurance. For those without it can mean death or permanent disability. I see people in the ER every day who have delayed or avoided care because of uninsurance who experience severe consequences because of it. Perforated appendicitis because of a delay due to worries about costs. A child admitted to the hospital with a kidney infection that could have been easily treated with oral antibiotics days before but wasn't because of lack of access. Renal failure in a person with diabetes left untreated. People with bent forearms because while they were appropriately treated and splinted in the ER, they were unable to see an orthopedist for subsequent definitive treatment because of lack of insurance. That is stuff you expect to see in the developing countries, not the richest country in the world. Of course it is easy to see the villain in that scenario as the evil orthopedist who would not see him for free. (And I will admit ortho is one of the worst offenders for unwillingness to provide uncompensated care.) However why should one group of professionals (health care providers) be expected to shoulder the cost of health care for 15-20% of the US population simply because the country refuses to? I don't mind paying taxes to support health care for all in the US, but I do take issue with the tax being exclusively applied to doctors and nurses and PTs and RTs etc, while an attorney or programmer or businessman who makes as much or more than I do pays nothing.

The saddest part is that we already spend in GNP well more than enough to cover every man, woman, and child in the US with a health care system that the world would envy. We pay about 15% of our GNP for health care, while most developed nations spend around 7-8%. If we took all of the money that goes to 'profits and administration' (about 30%) in the for profit health insurance industry, as well as negotiating for drug prices that were on par with what the rest of the developed world we would have enough to pay for everyone.

So I think Moore is right: Its sicko.
Hrmmm