Pro Bodybuilder cycle "list" - is this BS or not?

[Matt]

You mean pro’s aren’t taking 400 mcg of t3 and 180 of effedrine a day lol. I myself do like effedrine but 32-40 and I’m more than good. T3 I have tried up to 100 and that was way too high. That stuff is weird.

I can't recall...are standard ephedrine tablets 8mg each?

If so, yeah, 32-40mg would be just about right for a person who is eating well, doing cardio, and has a good metabolism.  180mg would be quite excessive - yikes!  I would worry about side effects like a racing heartbeat.

[XFACTOR]

I can't recall...are standard ephedrine tablets 8mg each?

If so, yeah, 32-40mg would be just about right for a person who is eating well, doing cardio, and has a good metabolism.  180mg would be quite excessive - yikes!  I would worry about side effects like a racing heartbeat.

Or a side effect like death. Lol. I heard that DNP crap is pretty harsh too.

[Coach is Back!]

Again...complete bullshit



“10 tabs of halotestin per day, before training“

As for the stimulants....300mcg T3, 200mcg Clen then add in certain weeks of DNP + 180mg ephedrine = damn near death

I never went over 50mcg of T3 or 50mcg Clen at anytime during my prep and DNP never even entered my mind.

I had a great prep diet and 60-90min cardio per day. If you can’t get by with that then your prep coach sucks and I don’t care who it is.

[JuicedKangaroo]

Again...complete bullshit



“10 tabs of halotestin per day, before training“

As for the stimulants....300mcg T3, 200mcg Clen then add in certain weeks of DNP + 180mg ephedrine = damn near death

I never went over 50mcg of T3 or 50mcg Clen at anytime during my prep and DNP never even entered my mind.

I had a great prep diet and 60-90min cardio per day. If you can’t get by with that then your prep coach sucks and I don’t care who it is.

Well said Coach. 10 tabs of halo ED... 

[pellius]

Whoever would take this seriously also believes in Santa...

I will cross the line and say little more than I should - but most of the SMART PROS...and there ARE MANY take:

500 - 1000 mg of TEST/week
+
250 - 1000mg of OTHER ANABOLICS along with it....with antiestrogen of choice.

Not all take GH and INSULIN...and if they do it is 2-6 IU of GH/day + 5-40 IU of insulin/day

You're now competing on the Olympic stage. It took you decades of training and sacrifice. Sacrificing virtually every facet of your life: health, social, financial... And you got there on a gram/wk of Test, a gram of anabolics/wk (Deca, Eq, Primo...) and cycling orals in and out (50-100mg/daily dbol/drol). Then you got your 6iugh and 40 slin/day. At that level you know you are genetically gifted and really have a shot at the top. To be the best in the world at something.

Let's say you're Milos. Milos is a very intelligent guy. Could have been an engineer or a doctor and follow in his father's footsteps. But he decided to give all that up and pursue his passion of being a bodybuilder. To be the best in the world. He made it to the top five Mr. O but there are other guys just as talented and hungry as he is. There are people that are so driven that they will do anything to be number one. Milos has years of experience and vast knowledge of training and nutrition. He will continually try to manipulate every aspect of bodybuilding to advance, even using site enhancement -- even trying to fake it if it means it will increase his chances of winning. This is his life. He's already at his peak years but there are guys just as talented, maybe more so, and just as driven: Levrone, Flex, Cormier, Dillet and the new freak, Dorian Yates. Who knows what they're doing? The years are fading fast. He has sacrificed so much. could have been a doctor. This is it. It's now or never.

And we are supposed to believe that he would limit himself to 2 grams of injects per week at $60/wk, and 50-100 mg of orals ($30/wk) and 6ius gh (price varies but Dorian said he was paying $1iu back in his day) and the Humulin R is $25 for 1,000ius at Walmart today. He wants to stand next to Dorian and not disappear and will inject oil in his arms but limit himself to what a local competitor here considers an off season "cruise" cycle? No matter what your genetics, at that level, no matter how much of a freak you are, you always want to be better.

Three grams of gear a week top five Mr. Olympia and you're not going to see what an extra gram will do to an already maxed out physique. Not push that gh to 15ius/day which is what gh15 says it starts at the pro level hence the name. My QP with cheese costs more than that daily dose of slin. Can't just bump it up a bit and see where it takes you? After all, it's only your life's dream and ambition and that window of opportunity is closing slowly and you keep losing year after year.

Milo, like all bbers, is lying through his teeth.

[Coach is Back!]

You're now competing on the Olympic stage. It took you decades of training and sacrifice. Sacrificing virtually every facet of your life: health, social, financial... And you got there on a gram/wk of Test, a gram of anabolics/wk (Deca, Eq, Primo...) and cycling orals in and out (50-100mg/daily dbol/drol). Then you got your 6iugh and 40 slin/day. At that level you know you are genetically gifted and really have a shot at the top. To be the best in the world at something.

Let's say you're Milos. Milos is a very intelligent guy. Could have been an engineer or a doctor and follow in his father's footsteps. But he decided to give all that up and pursue his passion of being a bodybuilder. To be the best in the world. He made it to the top five Mr. O but there are other guys just as talented and hungry as he is. There are people that are so driven that they will do anything to be number one. Milos has years of experience and vast knowledge of training and nutrition. He will continually try to manipulate every aspect of bodybuilding to advance, even using site enhancement -- even trying to fake it if it means it will increase his chances of winning. This is his life. He's already at his peak years but there are guys just as talented, maybe more so, and just as driven: Levrone, Flex, Cormier, Dillet and the new freak, Dorian Yates. Who knows what they're doing? The years are fading fast. He has sacrificed so much. could have been a doctor. This is it. It's now or never.

And we are supposed to believe that he would limit himself to 2 grams of injects per week at $60/wk, and 50-100 mg of orals ($30/wk) and 6ius gh (price varies but Dorian said he was paying $1iu back in his day) and the Humulin R is $25 for 1,000ius at Walmart today. He wants to stand next to Dorian and not disappear and will inject oil in his arms but limit himself to what a local competitor here considers an off season "cruise" cycle? No matter what your genetics, at that level, no matter how much of a freak you are, you always want to be better.

Three grams of gear a week top five Mr. Olympia and you're not going to see what an extra gram will do to an already maxed out physique. Not push that gh to 15ius/day which is what gh15 says it starts at the pro level hence the name. My QP with cheese costs more than that daily dose of slin. Can't just bump it up a bit and see where it takes you? After all, it's only your life's dream and ambition and that window of opportunity is closing slowly and you keep losing year after year.

Milo, like all bbers, is lying through his teeth.

I completely and understand your analogy but I have to back Milos on this. There comes a point in time of diminishing returns to where more isn’t better and often detrimental. Let’s take analogy of the 15IU per day. Even though on the first page it’s lists I think 36IUs per day of GH, I said that alone would be a debilitation and would make it damn near impossible to train. Although 15IUs is quite a bit less, it would still cause numbness, joint pain, muscle pain, fluid retention and more. Anymore than 6IUs on most people will create the numbness but as far as the anabolics goes, you’ll more than likely get the same results of using a total (test included) 2-3000grms per week and that’s pushing it, as you would taking 4-5grms. Why? Because I’m most that extra won’t see any real significant improvements, as a matter of fact usually anything over 2500-3000 you start seeing real side effects.

When the side effects kick in that’s when it’s time to cut back and readjust. Don’t believe the crazy shit posted. Some talk about being addicted. When you’re taking more gear than you think you need, that’s an addiction. More is not better.

For the sake of this discussion and it’s doses, I’m talking about pre-contest 12-16 weeks out. Off season SHOULD be significantly less minus the GH/Insulin which shouldn’t go over 6IU/20IU in any given day. 6IUs might be pushing it.

[pellius]

I completely and understand your analogy but I have to back Milos on this. There comes a point in time of diminishing returns to where more isn’t better and often detrimental. Let’s take analogy of the 15IU per day. Even though on the first page it’s lists I think 36IUs per day of GH, I said that alone would be a debilitation and would make it damn near impossible to train. Although 15IUs is quite a bit less, it would still cause numbness, joint pain, muscle pain, fluid retention and more. Anymore than 6IUs on most people will create the numbness but as far as the anabolics goes, you’ll more than likely get the same results of using a total (test included) 2-3000grms per week and that’s pushing it, as you would taking 4-5grms. Why? Because I’m most that extra won’t see any real significant improvements, as a matter of fact usually anything over 2500-3000 you start seeing real side effects.

When the side effects kick in that’s when it’s time to cut back and readjust. Don’t believe the crazy shit posted. Some talk about being addicted. When you’re taking more gear than you think you need, that’s an addiction. More is not better.

For the sake of this discussion and it’s doses, I’m talking about pre-contest 12-16 weeks out. Off season SHOULD be significantly less minus the GH/Insulin which shouldn’t go over 6IU/20IU in any given day. 6IUs might be pushing it.

Of course, there are diminishing returns on anything. Even training. Each additional set isn't going to stimulate a corresponding adaptive response than the previous set.
That doesn't mean those additional sets aren't worthwhile. If you advance by a factor of 10 (numbers purely arbitrary for discussion) on a gram but only a factor of 6 on two grams and say a factor of one on five grams. That "one" may be the difference between winning or losing -- especially since you are already losing.

Now HGH dosages are easily documented by both studies and manufacturer's recommendations. We don't have to rely on a bbers suspect claims. Even Dorian said that he use 15ius a day and I believe they all understate their dosages.

Serostim comes in a ONE week supply of 7 SINGLE USE vials at 6mg/vial, 18ius. The typical 126 IU kit they give AIDS/HIV patients. I know first hand because I worked for a manager that was being treated for AIDS/HIV and he showed me the kit and he said he took one vial a day at night. He was a relatively frail 5'10" 145 lb male. He did say initially he had problems staying awake and some initial edema and had to cut back to every other day. But he's been at full dose for years. I imagine a 300lb Ronnie Coleman who proved he would do anything to his body to achieve what he did could work his way up to over 16ius a day.

From the RxList website.

The usual starting dose of SEROSTIM is 0.1 mg/kg subcutaneously once daily (up to a total dose of 6 mg). SEROSTIM should be administered subcutaneously once daily at bedtime according to the following body weight-based dosage recommendations:

Weight Range   Dose
> 55kg ( > 121 lb)   6 mg* SC daily
45-55 kg (99-121 lb)   5 mg* SC daily
35-45 kg (75-99 lb)   4 mg* SC daily
< 35 kg ( < 75 lb)   0.1 mg/kg SC daily

[pellius]

To address additional points you made, I don't know how you can possibly know that
going from two grams to four grams will most likely get the same results when so many others will demonstrably dispute that. And certainly my unfortunate manager was fully functional on 18ius of hgh/day and our own Spike said he didn't really start getting to the next level until he increased the gh to 10ius/day.

And yes, nobody is recommending a blasting cycle year round. Hence the term "Blast and Cruise". I'm sure many go to gh15 extremes but no one on the Olympia stage is there on two grams/6ius a week. We just had the Shawn Ray Classic here and those that I know well that competed are taking much more than that. You can say that all their genetics sucks but they will push the envelope to win an amateur show. Imagine a pro whose life depends on it?

Yes, there are diminishing returns. There are side effects even at therapeutic dosage that are amplified when abused. But nobody bodybuilds at an advanced level to improve their health.

[JuicedKangaroo]

To address additional points you made, I don't know how you can possibly know that going from two grams to four grams will most likely get the same results when so many others will demonstrably dispute that.

Others such as? Aside from an anonymous faceless GH15, who has ever advocated from doubling gear from 2 grams/week to 4 grams/week? Everybody anecdotally knows that diminishing returns kick in once you exceed a gram of test/week.

Will 1,500 mg net more gains than 1,000 mg? Sure, but it won't be an additional 50%... This is well supported in the scientific literature, with diminishing returns kicking in (slowly) in excess of 600 mg test/week.

I believe the truth lies somewhere between Milos and GH15, but much closer to Milos than to GH15. 1g/week as Mr O is absurd, but not as absurd as GH15's wish list.

[pellius]

Others such as? Aside from an anonymous faceless GH15, who has ever advocated from doubling gear from 2 grams/week to 4 grams/week? Everybody anecdotally knows that diminishing returns kick in once you exceed a gram of test/week.

Will 1,500 mg net more gains than 1,000 mg? Sure, but it won't be an additional 50%... This is well supported in the scientific literature, with diminishing returns kicking in (slowly) in excess of 600 mg test/week.

I believe the truth lies somewhere between Milos and GH15, but much closer to Milos than to GH15. 1g/week as Mr O is absurd, but not as absurd as GH15's wish list.

If I gave you the names of the people I know in person that took it to the next level by increasing their dosages would that make any difference? Even Dr. Walczak, whom I'm sure Coach knows, who use to prescribed gear and treat bbers when it was legal. He told me that most will reach their natural limit after about a year of good training and nutrition. After that gains will come very slowly. Anabolics will take you to another level at a given dose and then stagnate. Then you have to increase the dose to support the additional muscle mass. He used the analogy of weight gaining. You are at a certain weight at a given amount of calories. You increase that by 800 calories a day and you will slowly start to gain weight. Eventually, you'll reach a limit and now you have to increase the calories even more to gain more weight. And once you go back down to the original caloric intake you will slowly go back to your original weight. Just like when you stop juicing you will slowly start to lose muscle mass getting back to the original amount of muscle you naturally can carry given the same diet and training protocol.

And I stated clearly and unequivocally that you get diminishing returns -- on virtually EVERYTHING in life. Does that mean it is not worth the additional gains? To some whose livelihood depends on it, every fraction of a percent can make the difference and will be worth it. But how can you possibly know what percentage the population will gain with each incremental increase? What scientific literature speculates on these percentages and scales of returns? How do you measure and quantify this?

If you want to believe that if you can make it to the Olympia stage on two grams and 6ius/week gh it's no skin off my nose. But I can guarantee you that you, or anybody you know or will ever know, won't go very far as a pro on that dose. The reason it matters is that if more people knew the truth of what it takes to be a top IFBB pro maybe more will realize that it's a fraud. Kids won't be wasting their lives on a pipe dream that even at best, is destroying your body. The opposite of what bodybuilding was originally all about. It was to BUILD your body and not destroy it. Maybe Milos would have been a wealthy doctor living a comfortable life instead of a criminal and drug dealer.

But remember, my point was not to say that gh15 is right but to say that Milos is lying.
He's giving false hope to kids pursuing a pipe dream. I read gh15 and say forget it. Who the hell wants to do that? Injecting yourself multiple times a day with various chemicals just so you can have big muscles to show off to others. If you like training and fitness so much do what Coach did and build a business doing what you love. He has the best of both worlds. He built a successful career in the training industry and can still pursue bbing at a high level.

[sarcafago]

Current “cycle”

1250 test e
1000 primo
900 deca
900 eq
100 proviron

[joswift]

To address additional points you made, I don't know how you can possibly know that
going from two grams to four grams will most likely get the same results when so many others will demonstrably dispute that. And certainly my unfortunate manager was fully functional on 18ius of hgh/day and our own Spike said he didn't really start getting to the next level until he increased the gh to 10ius/day.

And yes, nobody is recommending a blasting cycle year round. Hence the term "Blast and Cruise". I'm sure many go to gh15 extremes but no one on the Olympia stage is there on two grams/6ius a week. We just had the Shawn Ray Classic here and those that I know well that competed are taking much more than that. You can say that all their genetics sucks but they will push the envelope to win an amateur show. Imagine a pro whose life depends on it?

Yes, there are diminishing returns. There are side effects even at therapeutic dosage that are amplified when abused. But nobody bodybuilds at an advanced level to improve their health.

a former pro who competed up until 2011 in the 202 class told me he was taking 200mgs tren and 400mgs test a week and that does he was at his best...

[Tbomzisback!]

different guys respond differently to high dosages of different compounds.

myself, if I went super high on AAS, I would just feel lethargic and would actually, if I went high enough, start to lose muscle.  but I could go extremely high on GH, and just get better and better results (though my hands would get numb, yes).

other guys can go very high on AAS, but cant go as high on GH.

they say one of the main differences between the pros and the amateurs, is that the pros can not only use very high dosages, but they can get the most out of them.  for example, one guy might not be able to get more gains by increasing his dosage (beyond a certain point). but if another guy can double his gains by doubling his dosage, then the second guy has the potential to be a lot better than the first (assuming he can do so while staying healthy).


as far as upper limits... King Kamali recently talked about guys using as much as 50iu of GH per day. And I know that happens more often than people think, especially with the extremely affordable, extremely potent, extremely high dosed kits one can find these days.

[Tbomzisback!]

Anabolics will take you to another level at a given dose and then stagnate. Then you have to increase the dose to support the additional muscle mass. He used the analogy of weight gaining. You are at a certain weight at a given amount of calories. You increase that by 800 calories a day and you will slowly start to gain weight. Eventually, you'll reach a limit and now you have to increase the calories even more to gain more weight. And once you go back down to the original caloric intake you will slowly go back to your original weight. Just like when you stop juicing you will slowly start to lose muscle mass getting back to the original amount of muscle you naturally can carry given the same diet and training protocol.

true but cycling down to a lower dosage (say, HRT levels) can work to "resensitize" the body. Say a guy uses 1,500mg as a blast for 10 weeks, then drops back down to say 10-20mg per day for a few months. Most guys will be able to hold on to the majority of their muscle during that time, and when they jump back on to a blast a few months later, will experience a new surge in growth. Of course, this has its limits.  But take for example Phil Heath - he says he has been using lower dosages this past year, and I for one believe him. Yet he looks absolutely massive. I am willing to bet that when he jumps back on to make this comeback, he is going to blow past his 2018 form and come in looking much, much freakier than he would have if he would not have taken the year off to build/maintain size on lower dosages and resensitize his body.

[Kahn.N.Singh]

I completely and understand your analogy

 

I am afraid that there are no analogues to compare and understand. I think you meant to say that you understood Pellius's construction of a hypothetical case. To wit: "Let's say you're Milos..."

Here, this will start you on the path to a better understanding of analogies:


Happy Holidays!!!

[ilalin]

GH is taken at high dosages, everything else is an exaggeration. The listed dosages of ephedrine, clen coupled with oxymetholone would increase BP leading to a stroke. DNP is not as bad as many think, especially in the winter sensibly used.  Tried it many times, but also have access to clean Sigma DNP and a calibrated laboratory balance. Otherwise, I would not touch it.

[pellius]

a former pro who competed up until 2011 in the 202 class told me he was taking 200mgs tren and 400mgs test a week and that does he was at his best...

And you believe him? Who is he?

How about you? You compete? What do you take? You've admitted in the past that you would have to increase your dose to get bigger but it wasn't worth the health risks.

[illuminati]

a former pro who competed up until 2011 in the 202 class told me he was taking 200mgs tren and 400mgs test a week and that does he was at his best...

I’m very good friends with Kamal who won the 212lb Olympia
And what he uses & his Dosages Very Clearly Many on Here wouldn’t believe or say he’s Lying.

Personally I don’t care if they take 1gram or 100grams as Good physiques in decent condition
Are still a relative rarity- Yet Gyms are full of Men Taking Loads of Gear.

[mazrim]

This is well supported in the scientific literature, with diminishing returns kicking in (slowly) in excess of 600 mg test/week.

Do you happen to have the literature on this? I've only seen studies using 600mg/week of testosterone as the max.

[Tbomzisback!]

Others such as? Aside from an anonymous faceless GH15, who has ever advocated from doubling gear from 2 grams/week to 4 grams/week? Everybody anecdotally knows that diminishing returns kick in once you exceed a gram of test/week.

Will 1,500 mg net more gains than 1,000 mg? Sure, but it won't be an additional 50%... This is well supported in the scientific literature, with diminishing returns kicking in (slowly) in excess of 600 mg test/week.

I believe the truth lies somewhere between Milos and GH15, but much closer to Milos than to GH15. 1g/week as Mr O is absurd, but not as absurd as GH15's wish list.

I doubt any scientific studies have been done on advanced bodybuilders with a long history of moderate to high dosages...

[AbrahamG]

I'd bet my own money that the Nationals was riddled with guys who didn't place who use more that the top 6 at the Olympia. 

[pellius]

different guys respond differently to high dosages of different compounds.

myself, if I went super high on AAS, I would just feel lethargic and would actually, if I went high enough, start to lose muscle.  but I could go extremely high on GH, and just get better and better results (though my hands would get numb, yes).

other guys can go very high on AAS, but cant go as high on GH.

they say one of the main differences between the pros and the amateurs, is that the pros can not only use very high dosages, but they can get the most out of them.  for example, one guy might not be able to get more gains by increasing his dosage (beyond a certain point). but if another guy can double his gains by doubling his dosage, then the second guy has the potential to be a lot better than the first (assuming he can do so while staying healthy).


as far as upper limits... King Kamali recently talked about guys using as much as 50iu of GH per day. And I know that happens more often than people think, especially with the extremely affordable, extremely potent, extremely high dosed kits one can find these days.

Exactly. The genetic response to gear, food, training... everything. Champions are born first then made. If you don't have it at birth -- forget it. Life is unfair.

[pellius]

true but cycling down to a lower dosage (say, HRT levels) can work to "resensitize" the body. Say a guy uses 1,500mg as a blast for 10 weeks, then drops back down to say 10-20mg per day for a few months. Most guys will be able to hold on to the majority of their muscle during that time, and when they jump back on to a blast a few months later, will experience a new surge in growth. Of course, this has its limits.  But take for example Phil Heath - he says he has been using lower dosages this past year, and I for one believe him. Yet he looks absolutely massive. I am willing to bet that when he jumps back on to make this comeback, he is going to blow past his 2018 form and come in looking much, much freakier than he would have if he would not have taken the year off to build/maintain size on lower dosages and resensitize his body.

True. The calorie analogy (correct use of the word, Kahn?) is not perfect but just to point out you will only get so far on so much and then you need more. Eventually, you will reach a limit as your body limits how much muscle you can carry no matter what you do. Not so much with calories. From your body's perspective fat is a good thing. Stored energy enhances survival during those lean periods. Your body seems to have an almost limitless capacity to store fat to the point were you completely disfigure your body as there are no longer any natural limitations to fat storage. In nature, if you get so fat that you can't hunt or run away you get killed.

But you use the right term "desensitize". We often hear about burning out your receptors.
Like somehow you lose them. But like training, where your body gets used to the same type of training month after month, year after year, you do have to mix it up again. Which is why I mentioned the commonly used "Blast and Cruise" approach.

[ESFitness]

Oh boy... Where to begin. I'm no stranger to pushing the envelope with doses (PEDs or otherwise), but some of this is clearly sensationalized bullshit.
1- the first part the test, deca, and anadrol were pretty accurate.
2- , the t3 and clen is a joke. As is the insulin and glucophage (metformin)... Even with the 36iu of humatrope. And starting with 36 IU's of humatrope, you would never feel your f****** hands and you'd be tired as shit, even *if* you'd take that bullshit 200mg ephedrine dose.
3- NOBODY would/could use 5ml Nubain for only 3dsys a week.

4- on the 6-2wks out, 400 microgram t3 and 400mcg/day is retarded, especially wibth the 200mg of ephedrine. Just retarded.

5- nobody's just "stopping" Nubain after 8 f'n weeks on.

6- .then he adds "amphetamine" on top on the ridiculous 180mg/day ephedrine.

7- & he claims at add Xanax,Valium, and/or Halcion (one of the hardest be.

8- 10iu prior to getting onstage would do next to nothing aside from helping him spill over.

[pellius]

Oh boy... Where to begin. I'm no stranger to pushing the envelope with doses (PEDs or otherwise), but some of this is clearly sensationalized bullshit.
1- the first part the test, deca, and anadrol were pretty accurate.
2- , the t3 and clen is a joke. As is the insulin and glucophage (metformin)... Even with the 36iu of humatrope. And starting with 36 IU's of humatrope, you would never feel your f****** hands and you'd be tired as shit, even *if* you'd take that bullshit 200mg ephedrine dose.
3- NOBODY would/could use 5ml Nubain for only 3dsys a week.

4- on the 6-2wks out, 400 microgram t3 and 400mcg/day is retarded, especially wibth the 200mg of ephedrine. Just retarded.

5- nobody's just "stopping" Nubain after 8 f'n weeks on.

6- .then he adds "amphetamine" on top on the ridiculous 180mg/day ephedrine.

7- & he claims at add Xanax,Valium, and/or Halcion (one of the hardest be.

8- 10iu prior to getting onstage would do next to nothing aside from helping him spillover.

Give us your guess of a typical pro cycle beginning 3 months out.

You'll get flamed no matter what you say but often the actual supplier has a better idea of what is being use then what the user actually claims.