Pro Bodybuilder cycle "list" - is this BS or not?

[Bevo]

Ha ha ha...and with that you lose all credibility Mishko

In all seriousness though, both Mishko & gh15 are right.  I personally know several national level guys, as well as IFBB pros who are using what gh15 outlined...and then some!  They are dumb as fuck and think that becasue their current blood work is okay, that they are fine  And they do spend an ungodly amount of money on their gear.  One guy sticks himself 5+ times PER DAY during pre contest

I also know of two top IFBB pros who took ridiculously low dosages for 3-5 months out of the year.  One took 2nd in the Mr. O twice and the other placed in the top six.  Both of these guys had unbelievable genetics when it came to responding to gear.

Even after 12 years mindspins comment here is one of the most logical and closer to to truth

[Bevo]

Guys i can back Milos 100% with this post!!! the astronomical amounts of steroids, gh, insulin etc that the general public think alot of the pro's take is just ridiculous!!!!! I can honestly say having helped alot of amateurs myself prepare for shows is the first thing i do is cut there cycles in half and than maybe half again!!! they have this inscane belief that taking this ridiculous amounts will make this a professional bodbuilder more faster and than get on the Olympia stage!!! achieving a pro card is one thing but competing in the Olympia is the highest level a pro can obtain! but having said does this mean the very top guys in the sport are abusing??? NO WAY!!!! look at the very elite, Jay, Ronnie, Melvin, Dexter, Dennis, Victor, Gustavo etc......these guys have been around in the elite level for almost 10 years!!! WHY??? not because they abuse but like Milos said because they are smart!!!! the guys who come in like a flash and exit just as fast as the guys more likely taking the most risk!

Lee Priest once said "There would be guys in a Mr Olympia audience who have never ever competed taking more gear than the the actual Mr Olympia competitors on stage"!!! nothing could be further from the truth!

All this talk yet Luke had kidney failure, and later died from getting a transplant

Yeah, low dosages on his behalf

Forgot, it was all genetics and predisposed condition.....

[Rambone]

All this talk yet Luke had kidney failure, and later died from getting a transplant

Yeah, low dosages on his behalf

Forgot, it was all genetics and predisposed condition.....

Luke went from failing English to failing kidneys. These guys are in such denial. Sad!

[mazrim]

I doubt any scientific studies have been done on advanced bodybuilders with a long history of moderate to high dosages...

That was my thought.

[Rusty Trombone]

All this talk yet Luke had kidney failure, and later died from getting a transplant

Yeah, low dosages on his behalf

Forgot, it was all genetics and predisposed condition.....

I was reading another forum thread from 2012,and this semi-known bodybuilder was giving some solid AAS advice in fact...
I google his name and sure enough,he's dead at 34.
https://www.evolutionofbodybuilding.net/death-of-matt-porter/

Looked like shit too. Not the results I would die for.

[ESFitness]

Give us your guess of a typical pro cycle beginning 3 months out.

You'll get flamed no matter what you say but often the actual supplier has a better idea of what is being use then what the user actually claims.

Depends on how much they have to spend.

A lot of ppl here, or in general, believe guys spend "astronomical" amounts on gear. The gear is cheap, especially when they're buying in "bulk", either all 3-4months worth at once, or paying once a month... Especially a pro, since the supplier wants to be the one who supplies the winner...although that could go the opposite way as well, and they'll pay an extra 10-20%, just because we know they can afford it. Depends on the relationship we have with the client/customer.

Either way, the gear part is cheap. The GH is the biggest expenditure (I typically never felt delt (*edit typo) with GH because the production is out of my hands and I can't guarantee the quality/legitimacy of the GH, unless I got it from an AIDs/HIV patient, and even then the most I could get would be something like 8 kits a month from 2 guys (they usually get 1kit a week of serostim). Secondly, the profit margin didn't justify the risk of carrying it. Anyways...

A typical cycle these days (at least since I got back in in '11/'12) are generally 4-6g/wk, and that's been the case since at least the late 90's. The smart guys keep it simple and the majority is gonna be test, then 1-2 "anabolics" (deca typically, some like eq although I think it's garbage". Say 4g test and 2g deca, or 1g deca and an oral at 100mg/day of dbol or 200-300mg/day anadrol).

Same goes for precontest. The test typically starts high, they goes down come closer to the show as the non-aromatizing stuff goes up, but typically the test doesn't go below 1g up till show week (as AIs increase).

Say,
Test cyp/enan the first 2months then down to prop,Ace,susp,tne.  (The TNE can be tricky to make at a decent dose, as is test Ace) the final month/wks.

Add in non-aromatizing drugs. Tren. 100-150/day is plenty. Same with Masterson. And if they can afford it primo Ace, along with anavar, cutting the var out at maybe a month out and adding oral winstrol at 100/day and anadrol at 150-200/day to maintain a full-hard look to the muscle. I rarely see ppl hold much sub-q water from drol. Seems to hold the water intramuscularly. I also prefer proviron at 50-100mg #1 for sex drive and #2 to suppress SHBG and increasing free/unbound test.

Again, doses and drugs depend on how much they can afford while using a decent dose of GH (at least 4iu. Ideally above 8... Timing the doses around meals/workouts/etc...is a whole nother subject). Insulin would be used sparingly, checking blood sugar and using enough to keep blood sugar 90-100 and cutting it out completely at maybe 10days out (depending on the person and how long it takes them to lose the sug-q water from the slin), and possibly dropping the GH as well for the same reason.

Clen is wait to start until 4-6wks into the diet, as with t3. Clen starting at 20 and building up to maybe 120-140, splitting doses at 20mcg each. Higher doses at once is where you get the neg sides (hand cramps, racing heart rate, tremors, etc). T3 I'd start 2-3wks after the clen and doses depending on if the guy tends to be either an Endo/meso/ ecto. Starting at 12.5mcg and usually going no higher than 50.

ECA stack im the typical doses of 25/200/200 in the morning and pre-workout. Not a big fan of stims, but they can be a necessary evil wind trying to function throughout the day while number one dieting and number two on decent doses of GH.l

AI's depend on the guys preference. Personally I don't care for femara as it completely destroys my sex drive no matter how many grams of testosterone and mgs of proviron I'm running, but I find it the most effective., With Aromasin at just 25mgs a close 2nd. I also like nolva at just 10mgs as well. (I've told the story before about how I know guys who run 40 / 16 + mg (*edit... 40-60mgs) of nolvadex a day, while I've personally known a woman oh, and overweight woman in her forties with huge watermelon tits who got the genetic testing done and found out she had the gene for breast cancer and ran in her family her mom died of it her grandma died of it her sister had it etc, and since she was premenopausal the doctor put her on nolvadex at just 10 mg per day and her f****** watermelon tits shrink down to like small grapefruits within just like 2 months maybe three. And she obviously had a hell of lot more estrogen in her then a male bodybuilder.)

Running HCG during the cycle is just retarded and you're just running the risk of desensitizing your leydigs cells so if you ever want to have kids when you finally decide to "retire" from bbing and using the year-round doses required. Not to mention it has a huge tendency to cause gyno, acne, and water retention.

[illuminati]

Ha ha ha...and with that you lose all credibility Mishko

In all seriousness though, both Mishko & gh15 are right.  I personally know several national level guys, as well as IFBB pros who are using what gh15 outlined...and then some!  They are dumb as fuck and think that becasue their current blood work is okay, that they are fine  And they do spend an ungodly amount of money on their gear.  One guy sticks himself 5+ times PER DAY during pre contest

I also know of two top IFBB pros who took ridiculously low dosages for 3-5 months out of the year.  One took 2nd in the Mr. O twice and the other placed in the top six.  Both of these guys had unbelievable genetics when it came to responding to gear.

Clearly we know different pro’s & top level amateurs
I don’t dispute some / many are taking huge doses.
Don’t believe all & sundry have to use Ridiculously large amounts,
Plus if you would Name these pro’s it might add some credibility.
Each to their own.

[illuminati]

Depends on how much they have to spend.

A lot of ppl here, or in general, believe guys spend "astronomical" amounts on gear. The gear is cheap, especially when they're buying in "bulk", either all 3-4months worth at once, or paying once a month... Especially a pro, since the supplier wants to be the one who supplies the winner...although that could go the opposite way as well, and they'll pay an extra 10-20%, just because we know they can afford it. Depends on the relationship we have with the client/customer.

Either way, the gear part is cheap. The GH is the biggest expenditure (I typically never felt with GH because the production is out of my hands and I can't guarantee the quality/legitimacy of the GH, unless I got it from an AIDs/HIV patient, and even then the most I could get would be something like 8 kits a month from 2 guys (they usually get 1kit a week of serostim). Secondly, the profit margin didn't justify the risk of carrying it. Anyways...

A typical cycle these days (at least since I got back in in '11/'12) are generally 4-6g/wk, and that's been the case since at least the late 90's. The smart guys keep it simple and the majority is gonna be test, then 1-2 "anabolics" (deca typically, some like eq although I think it's garbage". Say 4g test and 2g deca, or 1g deca and an oral at 100mg/day of dbol or 200-300mg/day anadrol).

Same goes for precontest. The test typically starts high, they goes down come closer to the show as the non-aromatizing stuff goes up, but typically the test doesn't go below 1g up till show week (as AIs increase).

Say,
Test cyp/enan the first 2months then down to prop,Ace,susp,tne.  (The TNE can be tricky to make at a decent dose, as is test Ace) the final month/wks.

Add in non-aromatizing drugs. Tren. 100-150/day is plenty. Same with Masterson. And if they can afford it primo Ace, along with anavar, cutting the var out at maybe a month out and adding oral winstrol at 100/day and anadrol at 150-200/day to maintain a full-hard look to the muscle. I rarely see ppl hold much sub-q water from drol. Seems to hold the water intramuscularly. I also prefer proviron at 50-100mg #1 for sex drive and #2 to suppress SHBG and increasing free/unbound test.

Again, doses and drugs depend on how much they can afford while using a decent dose of GH (at least 4iu. Ideally above 8... Timing the doses around meals/workouts/etc...is a whole nother subject). Insulin would be used sparingly, checking blood sugar and using enough to keep blood sugar 90-100 and cutting it out completely at maybe 10days out (depending on the person and how long it takes them to lose the sug-q water from the slin), and possibly dropping the GH as well for the same reason.

Clen is wait to start until 4-6wks into the diet, as with t3. Clen starting at 20 and building up to maybe 120-140, splitting doses at 20mcg each. Higher doses at once is where you get the neg sides (hand cramps, racing heart rate, tremors, etc). T3 I'd start 2-3wks after the clen and doses depending on if the guy tends to be either an Endo/meso/ ecto. Starting at 12.5mcg and usually going no higher than 50.

ECA stack im the typical doses of 25/200/200 in the morning and pre-workout. Not a big fan of stims, but they can be a necessary evil wind trying to function throughout the day while number one dieting and number two on decent doses of GH.l

AI's depend on the guys preference. Personally I don't care for femara as it completely destroys my sex drive no matter how many grams of testosterone and mgs of proviron I'm running, but I find it the most effective., With Aromasin at just 25mgs a close 2nd. I also like nolva at just 10mgs as well. (I've told the story before about how I know guys who run 40 / 16 + mg of nolvadex a day, while I've personally known a woman oh, and overweight woman in her forties with huge watermelon tits who got the genetic testing done and found out she had the gene for breast cancer and ran in her family her mom died of it her grandma died of it her sister had it etc, and since she was premenopausal the doctor put her on nolvadex at just 10 mg per day and her f****** watermelon tits shrink down to like small grapefruits within just like 2 months maybe three. And she obviously had a hell of lot more estrogen in her then a male bodybuilder.)

Running HCG during the cycle is just retarded and you're just running the risk of desensitizing your leydigs cells so if you ever want to have kids when you finally decide to "retire" from bbing and using the year-round doses required. Not to mention it has a huge tendency to cause gyno, acne, and water retention.

Damn !!
It’s not often I’ll respond or agree with you
Only this time I’d say your fairly correct - Doses are higher than I’d be recommending
Or had people use.
By & large what you’ve posted is fairly accurate & effective.

[Tbomzisback!]

Legit GH is very easy to get and relatively affordable

Some guys use a ton of it (15 to 50iu or more/day), other guys not so much (2-4iu/day)

HCG is safe at 500iu/day, but effective at as low as 250iu/week. No reason not to use it except perhaps the last week or two before a show

[Bevo]

Clearly we know different pro’s & top level amateurs
I don’t dispute some / many are taking huge doses.
Don’t believe all & sundry have to use Ridiculously large amounts,
Plus if you would Name these pro’s it might add some credibility.
Each to their own.

What is ridiculously high dosages?

What is relatively low dosages?

What do bbers consider low or high, that is the question, isn’t all relative in ways?

[ESFitness]

Legit GH is very easy to get and relatively affordable

Some guys use a ton of it (15 to 50iu or more/day), other guys not so much (2-4iu/day)

HCG is safe at 500iu/day, but effective at as low as 250iu/week. No reason not to use it except perhaps the last week or two before a show

There is a reason not to use HCG. It's called desensitization of the leydigs cells, which is number one necessary if you ever want to have children. And number two completely pointless and unnecessary if you're already injecting exogenous testosterone. But hey, if you want acne, gyno, water retention, and a decreased chance you'll be able to produce children in the future, go ahead and shoot HCG every week.

[tres_taco_combo]

What do bbers consider low or high, that is the question, isn’t all relative in ways?

also different quality of PEDs as well too. 

it does this sport/circus more interesting for sure.  natural bbing is so boring 

[Tbomzisback!]

There is a reason not to use HCG. It's called desensitization of the leydigs cells, which is number one necessary if you ever want to have children. And number two completely pointless and unnecessary if you're already injecting exogenous testosterone. But hey, if you want acne, gyno, water retention, and a decreased chance you'll be able to produce children in the future, go ahead and shoot HCG every week.

doctors say studies show long-term use @ 500iu/day presents no risk for desensitization

Not using HCG means the balls can permanently shrink and recovery will take much longer too

Neither I nor anyone I've ever read has reported acne or gyno from HCG - and it makes sense, since it won't cause a supraphysiological level of either test or estro

[JuicedKangaroo]

There is a reason not to use HCG. It's called desensitization of the leydigs cells, which is number one necessary if you ever want to have children. And number two completely pointless and unnecessary if you're already injecting exogenous testosterone. But hey, if you want acne, gyno, water retention, and a decreased chance you'll be able to produce children in the future, go ahead and shoot HCG every week.

If including HCG, best SERM for PCT would be Nolvadex - very synergistic with stimulating endogenous test production plus Nolvadex will block the desensitisation of Leydig cells which canbe caused by HCG in high doses (in excess of regular 500 iu ED).

[willl]

HCG can definitely cause gyno. even at small doses, sometimes even more than with a hefty T dsg

to keep your balls fully functional, use 75iu LH 2 or max. 3 times a week

and even that small amount can get you puffy nipples



elaborate on the proviron-to-suppress-shbg-and-increase-T-theory if you will

the internet gave me this explanation: "One of the ways that it can increase testosterone is by binding to sex hormone binding globulin, or SHBG. This substance floats around in the bloodstream and picks up excess hormones, such as testosterone."

IF this is what you're saying i'd say that's way too weak, even for bro science measures
but maybe you're saying something else 

 

[rocket]

This is an example of how getbig was wayyyyy better, back then.

Some names I had forgotten in there.

[Bevo]

Bluto was a moron, comments were so naive

[Tha Grim Lifter]

Luke Wood in 2007 - Pro's don't take that many drugs
Luke Wood in 2012 -

[JuicedKangaroo]

Luke Wood in 2007 - Pro's don't take that many drugs
Luke Wood in 2012 -

Just to rustle some jimmies on here...

“As stated by Counsel Assisting at the outset, this inquest was not about the use and abuse of steroids. However, during the investigation undertaken in preparation for the inquest, some of the independent medical experts consulted by the Court were asked whether steroid use and Luke’s extreme musculature were relevant factors in relation to his care and treatment. Expert opinion received for this inquest revealed inter alia that such use would not have impacted on Luke’s suitability for the kidney transplant surgery. There was also evidence before me that high protein diets and anabolic steroid use are known risk factors for developing chronic renal failure. I also note that Luke had focal and segmental glomerulosclerosis (“FSGS”) and that his high protein diet and hypertension would have accelerated his progression toward end stage renal failure.”

https://roidvisor.com/australian-newspaper-apologizes-blaming-anabolic-steroids-cause-death-ifbb-pro-bodybuilder-luke-wood/

[airman23]

I started lurking this board around that time because of GH15.  I was so naive, reading this stuff now, it blows my mind how he didn't get called out sooner. 

I've never done DNP before, but from everyone that posts about it, when you run DNP you look very flat on it, and after you stop you have to deal with some major water retention. Yet he states to run DNP for a week in weeks 6,4 and 2.  Week 2? Why would you want to be dealing with water retention in the last few days before a show?  Just idiotic. 

And yeah, the other dosages are crazy. 

It's so funny that so many people refuse and argue that genetics play a huge role in bodybuilding.  No one ever says, if I did this or that I would be as good as Lebron James or Michael Jordan, but when it comes to bodybuilding it's not genetics, just the right "secret" cycle. lol

[Rascal full]

Obviously pro bodybuilders take as much gear as they possibly can. They also pretend that they don't do this and take moderate doses as genetics and training, etc are more important. Very, very few admit the truth as it reflects badly on them and could lead to copy cats endangering themselves. I know even in my gym at the bottom level people are taking more than they admit, at least in most cases.

[Kim Jong Bob]

A friend to me (Kwon knows who it is) he Worked for vikingstore who was smedens biggest online store for steroids, it was the store everyone ordered from so they sold a ton of grad. Only thing my friend did Was packaging and send Away the orders and besides getting a really hefty ”salary” for it he got free gear. Took 10grams a week of different stuff plus ALOT of gh and insulin...and alot of mera lol..until the police Busted him and he. Got half a Decade in prison for alot of meth and gear

[airman23]

Obviously pro bodybuilders take as much gear as they possibly can. They also pretend that they don't do this and take moderate doses as genetics and training, etc are more important. Very, very few admit the truth as it reflects badly on them and could lead to copy cats endangering themselves. I know even in my gym at the bottom level people are taking more than they admit, at least in most cases.

I'm sure a lot of people lie, especially ones that look like shit.  

But as I've gotten older, I'm more inclined to believe the pros who say it's not all gear.  The ones I tend to believe is the ones that say they use moderate doses.  Plenty of them have claimed on a podcast that they keep test below 1 gram, simply because they don't like it, GH only at max 6iu a day because they don't see much difference going higher and not worth the money.  I've heard a few say they like to keep test at around 750mg or below and throw in an anabolic at around 400 to 600mg.  Nothing crazy.  Now this is for the offseason so maybe they go harder precontest.

You do have to factor in genetics, diet and most importantly consistency.  Doesn't mean eat all your meals for the day. But day in and day out for years doing everything right.

Now before I get ridiculed for being naive, here is my own personal experience.  Attached is a 'before and after' pic.  The before is back around 2011, when I was reading GH15 and though gear was the answer.  I was running as per GH15 recommendation for a 'standard cycle', 700 Test Prop, 700 Tren Ace, 700 Mast Prop and I think I also had T3 in there and maybe some oral.  The other pic is from this year.  I was running 350 Test Prop, 350 Tren Ace, and 350 Mast Prop, also ran some clen at 80mcg.  This was the for 6 weeks before the pic was taken.  Prior 6 weeks to that I was doing 250 test E per week, and 400 Tren E per week.  

Now my genetics absolutely suck for bodybuilding.  And actually I'm not even a 'bodybuilder'.  I'm too tall with way to long limbs.  But I managed to make huge improvements the last couple years.  Mainly, I learned how to diet properly (down and to grow), I learned how to actually work the muscle instead of just moving the weight (believe it or not in the before pic, I was actually able to bench 365 for reps with no spotter... can't do that anymore, don't even bench anymore).

So again, I don't have a 'pro physique', I'm not genetically gifted but if I can get this kind of results with half the gear that I used before and didn't even look like I worked out, by simply doing things properly and sticking to it, imagine what someone with genetics meant for bodybuilding could achieve.

Just my thoughts.
  

[joswift]

I'm sure a lot of people lie, especially ones that look like shit.  

But as I've gotten older, I'm more inclined to believe the pros who say it's not all gear.  The ones I tend to believe is the ones that say they use moderate doses.  Plenty of them have claimed on a podcast that they keep test below 1 gram, simply because they don't like it, GH only at max 6iu a day because they don't see much difference going higher and not worth the money.  I've heard a few say they like to keep test at around 750mg or below and throw in an anabolic at around 400 to 600mg.  Nothing crazy.  Now this is for the offseason so maybe they go harder precontest.

You do have to factor in genetics, diet and most importantly consistency.  Doesn't mean eat all your meals for the day. But day in and day out for years doing everything right.

Now before I get ridiculed for being naive, here is my own personal experience.  Attached is a 'before and after' pic.  The before is back around 2011, when I was reading GH15 and though gear was the answer.  I was running as per GH15 recommendation for a 'standard cycle', 700 Test Prop, 700 Tren Ace, 700 Mast Prop and I think I also had T3 in there and maybe some oral.  The other pic is from this year.  I was running 350 Test Prop, 350 Tren Ace, and 350 Mast Prop, also ran some clen at 80mcg.  This was the for 6 weeks before the pic was taken.  Prior 6 weeks to that I was doing 250 test E per week, and 400 Tren E per week.  

Now my genetics absolutely suck for bodybuilding.  And actually I'm not even a 'bodybuilder'.  I'm too tall with way to long limbs.  But I managed to make huge improvements the last couple years.  Mainly, I learned how to diet properly (down and to grow), I learned how to actually work the muscle instead of just moving the weight (believe it or not in the before pic, I was actually able to bench 365 for reps with no spotter... can't do that anymore, don't even bench anymore).

So again, I don't have a 'pro physique', I'm not genetically gifted but if I can get this kind of results with half the gear that I used before and didn't even look like I worked out, by simply doing things properly and sticking to it, imagine what someone with genetics meant for bodybuilding could achieve.

Just my thoughts.
  

impressive build mate, I agree with the lower doses being more beneficial, too much gear just makes your body toxic and is counter productive..

I have listened to Dorian talk about drugs many times and he always says he used conservative doses, then in the next breat when talking about training and diet he says no one could be putting in as much effort as he was and thats what gave him the edge, well, if you mindset is leave no stone untruned in all aspects of your prep, it makes no sense he would use conservative dosages...

[ESFitness]

HCG can definitely cause gyno. even at small doses, sometimes even more than with a hefty T dsg

to keep your balls fully functional, use 75iu LH 2 or max. 3 times a week

and even that small amount can get you puffy nipples



elaborate on the proviron-to-suppress-shbg-and-increase-T-theory if you will

the internet gave me this explanation: "One of the ways that it can increase testosterone is by binding to sex hormone binding globulin, or SHBG. This substance floats around in the bloodstream and picks up excess hormones, such as testosterone."

IF this is what you're saying i'd say that's way too weak, even for bro science measures
but maybe you're saying something else  

 

Plenty anabolics also inhibit SHBG (tren being one, along with winstrol and Masterson), however I've always liked proviron and noticed a 50% increase in my free test when using proviron along with test. I forget the #'s of free test, but I've had total test levels above 10k @ I believe just 2-3 shots a wk of 300mg/ml cyp (my own), hell, it may've even been just 2 750mg shots a week.

Total test doesn't mean much if it's bound to SHBG, which prevents it from attaching to the androgen receptor. I'd rather have 2000ng w/ 20% of it unbound, rather than 4,000ng with 5% (it's actually more like 2% without somehow inhibiting shbg... It varies per person, per day, per whatever, obviously).

doctors say studies show long-term use @ 500iu/day presents no risk for desensitization

Not using HCG means the balls can permanently shrink and recovery will take much longer too

Neither I nor anyone I've ever read has reported acne or gyno from HCG - and it makes sense, since it won't cause a supraphysiological level of either test or estro

Your balls never shrink permanently. Even at 4g test a week, plus however much tren and other shit year 'round for yrs straight, my balls would only shrink once in a while, maybe 4x a year for only a few days to a week.

I've never been insecure about the size of my balls, and sure enough not enough to risk desensitizing the leydigs cells. Maybe if a guy has a small dick, the size of his balls might be all he has to offer to impress a girl when naked... I've never had that problem.