Independence Day

[Straw Man]

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carring the cross.” - Sinclair Lewis, (It Can’t Happen Here, 1935)

“Unhappy events abroad have retaught us two simple truths about the liberty of a democratic people. The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of a private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.” - Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882-1945), 32nd US President
 
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” - James Madison (1751-1836), 4th U.S. President and author of the U.S. Constitution
 
“I’m the commander in chief, see, I don’t need to explain, I do not need to explain why I say things. That’s the interesting part about being president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don’t feel like I owe anybody an explanation.” - George W. Bush, quoted in Bob Woodward’s book ‘Bush at War’

[Eyeball Chambers]

"Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin

[Camel Jockey]

I went fishing in Capetre Long Island and drank a lot of beer.

Happy Indepence Day to everyone!

[seauantea]

"The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies, but would be ashamed to tell big lies.
Hitler

"During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than information."
Goebbels

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Goering

"Whenever justice is uncertain and police spying and terror are at work, human beings fall into isolation, which, of course, is the aim and purpose of the dictator state, since it is based on the greatest possible accumulation of depotentiated social units."
Jung

[24KT]

"The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies, but would be ashamed to tell big lies.
Hitler

"During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than information."
Goebbels

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Goering

"Whenever justice is uncertain and police spying and terror are at work, human beings fall into isolation, which, of course, is the aim and purpose of the dictator state, since it is based on the greatest possible accumulation of depotentiated social units."
Jung

"One of the first moves of a dictatorship is to stifle the artists and thinkers who have the ability to stir up dissent from any prescribed dogma which might enslave them."     - Uta Hagen


Vision without action is a daydream, Action without vision is a nightmare. - Japanese Proverb


“Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.”
- Caesar

[Alex23]

Two of my buddies came back from Iraq last week.

We spent some quality time toghether today. They're proud of how great America is and how much their 2yrs sacrifces meant. So Am I. What do you guys think?

..... but what did you guys accomplished in the last 2 yrs?

I can say I kept mine shut and listened to what these 2 proud souls have experienced.
 

[seauantea]

Your "buddies" sound like useful idiots.

[OzmO]

Two of my buddies came back from Iraq last week.

We spent some quality time toghether today. They're proud of how great America is and how much their 2yrs sacrifces meant. So Am I. What do you guys think?

..... but what did you guys accomplished in the last 2 yrs?

I can say I kept mine shut and listened to what these 2 proud souls have experienced.
 

What they did is honorable.  They chose to put themselves in danger willingly for something they believed in.  Unfortunately, in the end, they did this in a unnecessary war brought about by greed and paranoia

[Camel Jockey]

Two of my buddies came back from Iraq last week.

We spent some quality time toghether today. They're proud of how great America is and how much their 2yrs sacrifces meant. So Am I. What do you guys think?

..... but what did you guys accomplished in the last 2 yrs?

I can say I kept mine shut and listened to what these 2 proud souls have experienced.
 

You enjoyed listening to how they ruined 2 years of their lives?

Honestly, you sound like someone who sticks those 'These colors don't run!' stickers on their car.   

[Nordic Superman]

You enjoyed listening to how they ruined 2 years of their lives?

Honestly, you sound like someone who sticks those 'These colors don't run!' stickers on their car.   

A few of my mates said they actually enjoyed the experience. However, they served 3 months at a time, 6 months in total.

2 years is a bit fucking harsh.

[24KT]

A few of my mates said they actually enjoyed the experience. However, they served 3 months at a time, 6 months in total.

2 years is a bit fucking harsh.

Especially when you consider Canada doesn't have any soldiers in Iraq 

[Nordic Superman]

Especially when you consider Canada doesn't have any soldiers in Iraq 

I don't get your point, nor the reason for the roley eyes.

Explain yourself women.

[Alex23]

You enjoyed listening to how they ruined 2 years of their lives?

Honestly, you sound like someone who sticks those 'These colors don't run!' stickers on their car.  

Anything wrong with that?

I guess I'm forgetting that most political problems tend to be solved on this board...

[Dos Equis]

Two of my buddies came back from Iraq last week.

We spent some quality time toghether today. They're proud of how great America is and how much their 2yrs sacrifces meant. So Am I. What do you guys think?

..... but what did you guys accomplished in the last 2 yrs?

I can say I kept mine shut and listened to what these 2 proud souls have experienced.
 

I agree.  One of my buddies just returned on Tuesday.  Spent the day with him yesterday.  Very proud of his service. 

[OzmO]

Especially when you consider Canada doesn't have any soldiers in Iraq 

[Eyeball Chambers]

What did we accomplish in Iraq?  All I see is Terrorism multiplying, soldiers being killed, and a giant waste of money.

[Brixtonbulldog]

What did we accomplish in Iraq?  All I see is Terrorism multiplying, soldiers being killed, and a giant waste of money.

Saddam is no longer a threat, therefore the violence has been relatively isolated to that region.  Fighting terrorism there with soldiers versus losing civilians at home or our surrounding interests in the near future.  We have established an even better foothold in the region with which to combat any other country that might develop into a threat.  Perpetrators of war crimes were brought to justice for the first time.  Iraqis turned out for the first democratic election in that region.  We've proven we can sustain and carry out urban warfare perhaps the most hostile terrain and suffer relatively minor losses compared to any other major conflict and effectively fight terrorism almost anywhere.  Oil (of course). 

Take a few minutes to consider what the alternative would probably have been (esp. 5, 15, and 30 yrs from now) and maybe you'll see why we are not only right in our actions but would have been even more successful if we had moved on Baghdad in the first gulf war and done it right the first time.  1991 was proof that conservative politicians and the country as a whole has nothing to be gained by taking the advice of liberals, democrats, or the otherwise reluctant and self serving.

[Eyeball Chambers]

Saddam is no longer a threat, therefore the violence has been relatively isolated to that region.

Saddam was a threat to the United States?  What about the other 25+ Governments that could be a threat, should we democratize them all?

Fighting terrorism there with soldiers versus losing civilians at home or our surrounding interests in the near future.

In my opinion all we're doing is fighting the terrorists that we created in Iraq...  I know I would be fighting back if our country was invaded.

We have established an even better foothold in the region with which to combat any other country that might develop into a threat.

You see the United States as the Police of the World and I don't.  Our President won't even work towards securing our boarders, instead he's working on erasing them.  Lets police the rest of the world though, I guess what happens at home isn't important to the Neo Conservatives.

Oil (of course). 

Glad to see you realize that now.

1991 was proof that conservative politicians and the country as a whole has nothing to be gained by taking the advice of liberals, democrats, or the otherwise reluctant and self serving.

You act like all conservatives are in the same boat... Maybe you meant Neo Conservatives?  Their are Traditional Conservatives who want to Impeach George W.

It truly worries me that people still support a man who has almost literally pissed on the Constitution that has served us so well...

You and the Bush administration want a new kind of America... I wish you all would just come out and admit it.

[OzmO]

Saddam is no longer a threat, therefore the violence has been relatively isolated to that region.  Fighting terrorism there with soldiers versus losing civilians at home or our surrounding interests in the near future.  We have established an even better foothold in the region with which to combat any other country that might develop into a threat.  Perpetrators of war crimes were brought to justice for the first time.  Iraqis turned out for the first democratic election in that region.  We've proven we can sustain and carry out urban warfare perhaps the most hostile terrain and suffer relatively minor losses compared to any other major conflict and effectively fight terrorism almost anywhere.  Oil (of course). 

Take a few minutes to consider what the alternative would probably have been (esp. 5, 15, and 30 yrs from now) and maybe you'll see why we are not only right in our actions but would have been even more successful if we had moved on Baghdad in the first gulf war and done it right the first time.  1991 was proof that conservative politicians and the country as a whole has nothing to be gained by taking the advice of liberals, democrats, or the otherwise reluctant and self serving.

The threat in Iraq is far higher now than pre-saddam removal.  It has cost us dearly and we will be paying for it for years to come.

Chances are we will have to leave at some point and lose it to the Iranians.  Which is worse?  a thug whose motivated/controlled by power and money like Saddam or religious radicals who think it's honorable to die fighting America?

[Colossus_500]

Especially when you consider Canada doesn't have any soldiers in Iraq 

  Does anyone really care about Canada?   


j/k, Jag.   

[Colossus_500]

“A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.” —Samuel Adams

[Brixtonbulldog]

Saddam was a threat to the United States?  What about the other 25+ Governments that could be a threat, should we democratize them all?

In my opinion all we're doing is fighting the terrorists that we created in Iraq...  I know I would be fighting back if our country was invaded.

You see the United States as the Police of the World and I don't.  Our President won't even work towards securing our boarders, instead he's working on erasing them.  Lets police the rest of the world though, I guess what happens at home isn't important to the Neo Conservatives.

Glad to see you realize that now.

You act like all conservatives are in the same boat... Maybe you meant Neo Conservatives?  Their are Traditional Conservatives who want to Impeach George W.

It truly worries me that people still support a man who has almost literally pissed on the Constitution that has served us so well...

You and the Bush administration want a new kind of America... I wish you all would just come out and admit it.

The idea that we created terrorists in Iraq is completely wrong.  A majority of terrorists we're fighting now have come from surrounding countries (Iran, Syria, etc.)  We didn't CREATE anything.  Their actions means they have to be dealt with.  And how is a leader that invades surrounding nations and slaughters millions of his own citizens out of pure hatred not a threat? Would you rather have waited until he was able to put ICBMs within range?  I assume you want us to ignore every other international crisis as well until deemed another failure.

The truth here is that everyone against this war and the actions we've taken wouldn't be saying shit if it was another prez in office. 

[headhuntersix]

Fucking amazing...its goddam Independence day and its bash Bush, bash the war....Bash American...fucking move out of my country..those in Canada, shut the fuck up. I spent the day on a boat with a bunch of other vets..after alot of beer we decided the American people don't deserve us. Unreal...I think if u hate your country u should move. And don't give me this Bush crap...all the hate for America was there way before Bush came to office. Get a grip...or leave.

[OzmO]

Fucking amazing...its goddam Independence day and its bash Bush, bash the war....Bash American...fucking move out of my country..those in Canada, shut the fuck up. I spent the day on a boat with a bunch of other vets..after alot of beer we decided the American people don't deserve us. Unreal...I think if u hate your country u should move. And don't give me this Bush crap...all the hate for America was there way before Bush came to office. Get a grip...or leave.

Had BUSH not irresponsibly squandered the lives of 3500+ men and wasted 400 billion I'd write a love ballad for him.

[headhuntersix]

Well if they just came out and said ...hey we need oil..and Saddam isa nutbag..fine..but at this point i am beginning to point the finger at the senior leadship of the Armed Services....They are the guys that embraced the PC crap of the Clinton 90's. There are many other reasons for why they suck, but the 90's did alot of damage. I'll go into this more when i have time but after reading alot about what lead up to the war..nobody came forward and told Bush that Cheney and that idiot wolfowitz didn't have a friggen clue.