Words of Wisdom from James Madison

[Colossus_500]

“America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat.” —James Madison

[Straw Man]

Madison was a very interesting guy.  He was a key figure in drafting the Constitution (some call him the Father of the Constitution).  He also had a lot of opinions about the separation of Church and State (guess which side he was on)

During the debates on impeachment at the Constitutional Convention in Philidephia George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and prevent detection."

James Madison responded:

If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty

fast foward 220 years:

“I’m the commander in chief, see, I don’t need to explain, I do not need to explain why I say things. That’s the interesting part about being president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don’t feel like I owe anybody an explanation.” - George W. Bush, quoted in Bob Woodward’s book ‘Bush at War’

[Eyeball Chambers]

Madison was a very interesting guy.  He was a key figure in drafting the Constitution (some call him the Father of the Constitution).  He also had a lot of opinions about the separation of Church and State (guess which side he was on)

During the debates on impeachment at the Constitutional Convention in Philidephia George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and prevent detection."

James Madison responded:

If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty

fast foward 220 years:

“I’m the commander in chief, see, I don’t need to explain, I do not need to explain why I say things. That’s the interesting part about being president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don’t feel like I owe anybody an explanation.” - George W. Bush, quoted in Bob Woodward’s book ‘Bush at War’

Amazing

[Colossus_500]

Madison was a very interesting guy.  He was a key figure in drafting the Constitution (some call him the Father of the Constitution).  He also had a lot of opinions about the separation of Church and State (guess which side he was on)

During the debates on impeachment at the Constitutional Convention in Philidephia George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and prevent detection."

James Madison responded:

If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty

I'm inclined to believe that James Madison was of the same mindset that I and many other Christians come from:

James Madison
1785 - A Memorial and Remonstrance

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."

Reference: Our Sacred Honor, Bennett (327)

James Madison
1825 - letter to Frederick Beasley

'The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities impressed with it.'

Reference: Writings of Madison, Hunt, ed., vol. 9 (230)

[Straw Man]

I'm inclined to believe that James Madison was of the same mindset that I and many other Christians come from:

James Madison
1785 - A Memorial and Remonstrance

"It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage, and such only, as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent both in order of time and degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."

Reference: Our Sacred Honor, Bennett (327)

James Madison
1825 - letter to Frederick Beasley

'The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities impressed with it.'

Reference: Writings of Madison, Hunt, ed., vol. 9 (230)

Keep Looking

Here are a few to get you started

Also, my point was that he was STRONGLY in favor of total separation of Church and State.  I did not say or suggest that he was an atheist, anti-religious or even a non-Christian (though it seems he was more likely a Deist than a Christian in our sense of the word).   It does seem clear that he was well aware of the dangers or religous zealotry and especially of mixing church and state

Every new & successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822 (more complete excerpt given below)

And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, in Saul K Padover, ed., The Complete Madison: His Basic Writings (1953), also; from Jack N Rakove, ed., James Madison: Writings, (1999), p. 789, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"


Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., April 1, 1774, quoted from Edwin S Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation (1987) p. 37, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Religion flourishes in greater purity without than with the aid of government.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.
-- James Madison, letter to Bradford, January 1774, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some, and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for such a business.
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 24, 1774, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785

[Colossus_500]

Keep Looking

Here are a few to get you started

Also, my point was that he was STRONGLY in favor of total separation of Church and State.  I did not say or suggest that he was an atheist, anti-religious or even a non-Christian (though it seems he was more likely a Deist than a Christian in our sense of the word).   It does seem clear that he was well aware of the dangers or religous zealotry and especially of mixing church and state

Every new & successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822 (more complete excerpt given below)

And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, in Saul K Padover, ed., The Complete Madison: His Basic Writings (1953), also; from Jack N Rakove, ed., James Madison: Writings, (1999), p. 789, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"


Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., April 1, 1774, quoted from Edwin S Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation (1987) p. 37, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

Religion flourishes in greater purity without than with the aid of government.
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.
-- James Madison, letter to Bradford, January 1774, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some, and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for such a business.
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 24, 1774, quoted from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785

You're interpreting his statements that religion = God, which is a common misconception. 

Religious freedom in our forefathers eyes meant that you were free to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob any way that you wanted to.  They were not referring to WICCA, Allah, etc.

[Straw Man]

You're interpreting his statements that religion = God, which is a common misconception. 

Religious freedom in our forefathers eyes meant that you were free to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob any way that you wanted to.  They were not referring to WICCA, Allah, etc.

I didn't equate anything from what I can see but I'm not sure I agree that they (Madison and his contemporaries such as Jefferson) really cared about any particular religion but rather freedom to believe and worship as you wish:

We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth "that religion, or the duty which we owe our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The religion, then, of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man: and that it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate.
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, addressed to the Virginia General Assemby, June 20, 1785

I have ever regarded the freedom of religious opinions and worship as equally belonging to every sect.
-- James Madison, letter to Mordecai Noah, May 15, 1818, from Albert J Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom

Freedom arises from the multiplicity of sects, which pervades America and which is the best and only security for religious liberty in any society. For where there is such a variety of sects, there can ot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest.
-- James Madison, spoken at the Virginia convention on ratification of the Constitution, June, 1778, quoted from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

In a free government, the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights. It consists in the one case in the multiplicity of interests, and in the other in the multiplicity of sects.
-- James Madison, from Number 51 of the Federalist Papers, quoted in James A Henretta, The Evolution of American Society, 1700-1815: An Interdisciplinary Analysis (1973) p. 136, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

I especially like Jefferson's simple quote on the topic:

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. 
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

And here's an example of what the religious community thought about the beliefs (or lack thereof) of our founding fathers.

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity.... Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831; first sentence quoted in John E Remsbert, "Six Historic Americans," second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15

[Colossus_500]

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. 
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

I would agree with this.  But we now live in a world where it's near criminal (in some places it actually is a crime) to say that there is a God (specifically the one of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).  You're free to speak of Wiccan mindset, Allah, anything but to mention Christ as the Son of God.  That's when they punches get thrown. 

Agree? 

[Straw Man]

I would agree with this.  But we now live in a world where it's near criminal (in some places it actually is a crime) to say that there is a God (specifically the one of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).  You're free to speak of Wiccan mindset, Allah, anything but to mention Christ as the Son of God.  That's when they punches get thrown. 

Agree? 

perhaps in an Islamic Theocracy (Iran, parts of Afghanistan, parts of Iraq, parts of Pakistan, etc...)  but I'm not sure where else in the world it would be "near criminal"

then again, what's that got to do with Madison, separation of church and state or the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of the founding fathers?

[Colossus_500]

perhaps in an Islamic Theocracy (Iran, parts of Afghanistan, parts of Iraq, parts of Pakistan, etc...)  but I'm not sure where else in the world it would be "near criminal"

then again, what's that got to do with Madison, separation of church and state or the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of the founding fathers?

You've not seen the many frivolous, flippant lawsuits all over the country these days?  They speak exactly to what our founding fathers were speaking of.  I'm as free to say that I believe in God just as you are to have the belief that He doesn't exist.  Where in our constitution does it say that I can talk to you about my God?  This is where the polarization begins.... There are those (I'm assuming you to be in that group, if I'm wrong, my apologies) who believe it's not right for me to share my beliefs with others.   They call it "shoving it down our throats", when it's simply sharing what i believe.  I don't hold people in a headlock when I witness to them, yet we're looking at an active push to quell any such thought.  It already exists in schools.  You're free to read the Koran (Q'uran) in school curriculum, but not the Bible.  Anything, ANYTHING, but Christianity.  That's not freedom of religion.  That's freedom from Christianity. 

Some quotes on religious liberty (take note that I included a broader quote than what you mention from Thomas Jefferson):


Virginia Bill of Rights, Article 16 1776
[R]eligion, or the duty which we owe to our creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and this is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.
Reference: The Founders Constitution, Website < http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/>; original The Papers of George Mason, 1725-

1792, Massachusetts Bill of Rights, Part the First 1780
It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religion profession of sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship....
Reference: Documents of American History, Commager, ed., vol. 1 (107)

John Adams
1765 - Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law
Let the pulpit resound with the doctrine and sentiments of religious liberty. Let us hear of the dignity of man's nature, and the noble rank he holds among the works of God... Let it be known that British liberties are not the grants of princes and parliaments.
Reference: The Most Nearly Perfect Solution, Guinness, 3-26; and John Adams and the Spirit of Liberty, Thompson, 54.

Thomas Jefferson
1782 - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 17
The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg..
Reference: Jefferson: Writings, Peterson ed., Library of America (285)

Thomas Jefferson
1802 - letter to a Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, Connecticut
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Reference: Jefferson Writings, Peterson, ed., 510.

Thomas Jefferson
1808 - letter to Samuel Miller
I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the States.
Reference: Original Intent, Barton (25); original Memoir, Jefferson, vol. 4 (103-4)

Thomas Jefferson
1809 - letter to Samuel Miller
I consider the government of the U.S. as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.
Reference: Jefferson Writings, Peterson, ed., 1186.

James Madison
1774 - letter to William Bradford
That diabolical Hell conceived principle of persecution rages amoung some and to their eternal Infamy the Clergy can furnish their Quota of Imps for such business,
Reference: Madison: Writings, Rakove, ed., Library of America (7)

James Madison
1774 - letter to William Bradford
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.
Reference: Madison: Writings, Rakove, ed., Library of America (9)

James Madison
1785 - Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments
It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society.
Reference: Madison: Writings, Rakove, ed., Library of America (30)

James Madison
1789 - proposed amendment to the Constitution, given in a speech in the House of Representatives
The civil rights of none, shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext infringed.[/i]
Reference: Madison: Writings, Rakove, ed., Library of America (442)

James Madison
1792 - essay on Property
Conscience is the most sacred of all property.
Reference: Madison: Writings, Rakove, ed., Library of America (516)

James Madison
1820 - letter to Jacob de la Motta
Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect.
Reference: Our Sacred Honor, Bennett, pg. 333

James Madison
1822 - letter to Edward Livingston
We are teaching the world the great truth that Governments do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion Flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Government.
Reference: Madison: Writings, Rakove, ed., Library of America (789)

Thomas Paine
1776 - Common Sense
The reformation was preceded by the discovery of America, as if the Almighty graciously meant to open a sanctuary to the persecuted in future years, when home should afford neither friendship nor safety.
Reference: Paine Writings, Foner, ed., 25.

Joseph Story
1833 - Commentaries on the Constitution
It yet remains a problem to be solved in human affairs, whether any free government can be permanent, where the public worship of God, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape. The future experience of Christendom, and chiefly of the American states, must settle this problem, as yet new in the history of the world, abundant, as it has been, in experiments in the theory of government.
Reference: Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 700.

George Washington
1789 - letter to the General Committee of the United Baptist Churches in Virginia
I have often expressed my sentiments, that every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.
Reference: Washington's Maxims, 175.

George Washington
1789 - to the Annual meeting of Quakers
The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreebly to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights. [/i]
Reference: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (533)

George Washington
1790 - letter to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, Rhode Island
It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.[/i]
Reference: George Washington: A Collection, W.B. Allen, ed. (548) George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress

George Washington
1793 - letter to the Members of the New Church in Baltimore
We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition, and that every person may here worship God according to the dictates of his own heart. In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.
Reference: Washington's Maxims, 180.

John Witherspoon
1776 - The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men
There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage.
Reference: The Selected Writings of John Witherspoon, Miller, 140-1.

[Straw Man]

You've not seen the many frivolous, flippant lawsuits all over the country these days?  They speak exactly to what our founding fathers were speaking of.  I'm as free to say that I believe in God just as you are to have the belief that He doesn't exist.  Where in our constitution does it say that I can talk to you about my God?  This is where the polarization begins.... There are those (I'm assuming you to be in that group, if I'm wrong, my apologies) who believe it's not right for me to share my beliefs with others.   They call it "shoving it down our throats", when it's simply sharing what i believe.  I don't hold people in a headlock when I witness to them, yet we're looking at an active push to quell any such thought.  It already exists in schools.  You're free to read the Koran (Q'uran) in school curriculum, but not the Bible.  Anything, ANYTHING, but Christianity.  That's not freedom of religion.  That's freedom from Christianity. 

Colussus - I share Jefferson's opinion - It does me no harm if you believe in 1 god, 20 gods, or no god.  If one's belief causes them to force their beliefs on others or causes them to discriminate against others (in secular sense) then we've got a problem. 

I find your proposed persecution complex towards Christianity a little hard to believe ESPECIALLY in America.

We have an office of Faith Based Initiatives in the White House.  I wonder what "Faith" that's based on? 
We are the country of the Christian Mega Church
We are the country where you can't even begin to think about running for President unless you're willing to ingratiate yourself to religious wing nuts like Dobson or Falwell.

Frankly - I think the following statement is completely backwards

I would agree with this.  But we now live in a world where it's near criminal (in some places it actually is a crime) to say that there is a God (specifically the one of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).  You're free to speak of Wiccan mindset, Allah, anything but to mention Christ as the Son of God.  That's when they punches get thrown. 

Agree? 

I think it's more likely for punches to be thrown if one professes any belief OTHER THAN a belief in the biblical God and/or Jesus and not the other way around.

[Colossus_500]

Colussus - I share Jefferson's opinion - It does me no harm if you believe in 1 god, 20 gods, or no god.  If one's belief causes them to force their beliefs on others or causes them to discriminate against others (in secular sense) then we've got a problem. 

I find your proposed persecution complex towards Christianity a little hard to believe ESPECIALLY in America.

We have an office of Faith Based Initiatives in the White House.  I wonder what "Faith" that's based on? 
We are the country of the Christian Mega Church
We are the country where you can't even begin to think about running for President unless you're willing to ingratiate yourself to religious wing nuts like Dobson or Falwell.

Frankly - I think the following statement is completely backwards

I think it's more likely for punches to be thrown if one professes any belief OTHER THAN a belief in the biblical God and/or Jesus and not the other way around.

Interesting...