Author Topic: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?  (Read 2906 times)

tweeter

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Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« on: July 07, 2007, 09:43:25 AM »
Is there really such thing as training a muscle for refinement or detail or is this just a myth? It seems as if the muscle would either hypertrophy or atrophy and that detail would just be a result of the size of the muscle combined with your genetics and bodyfat level. Also, as far as training for "shape", you cannot change the attachments of your muscles so I do not believe this is possible either. I was just thinking about it because alot of times you hear bodybuilders talk about how they are just training for refinement or detail now.

Mars

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2007, 09:44:31 AM »
It's a myth.

tweeter

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2007, 09:45:15 AM »
By the way mods, I know this should probably be on the training board but if you wouldn't mind, leave it up on here for a little bit so I can get some more replies.

Bluto

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2007, 09:56:21 AM »
milos believes in it

dont expect him to be able to prove it tho
Z

Mars

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2007, 09:57:12 AM »
Milos also says branch warren is on 750 mg test a week, i believe him.

benchthis

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2007, 09:58:00 AM »
yea milos belives he could change human anatomy

The Coach

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2007, 09:58:24 AM »
Is there really such thing as training a muscle for refinement or detail or is this just a myth? It seems as if the muscle would either hypertrophy or atrophy and that detail would just be a result of the size of the muscle combined with your genetics and bodyfat level. Also, as far as training for "shape", you cannot change the attachments of your muscles so I do not believe this is possible either. I was just thinking about it because alot of times you hear bodybuilders talk about how they are just training for refinement or detail now.

In short, yes there is such thing as muscle refinement and detail.......and no, it's not a myth!

Cee21Jay

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2007, 10:00:46 AM »
I think it is mostly a myth.  I think shape is under a little control.  An example would be training pec minor to increase upper chest size and brachialis to change the way the biceps appear on the flexed arm.  One more example could be performing soleus and gastroc exercises that hit one over the other to try to give a certain shape to the calf.  In theory this should work. 

The Coach

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2007, 10:02:08 AM »
back in the day, coach had both.

Thank you :D!

The Coach

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2007, 10:06:21 AM »
I think it is mostly a myth.  I think shape is under a little control.  An example would be training pec minor to increase upper chest size and brachialis to change the way the biceps appear on the flexed arm.  One more example could be performing soleus and gastroc exercises that hit one over the other to try to give a certain shape to the calf.  In theory this should work. 

No, it's not a myth, I am a firm believer from a bodybuilding standpoint, each muscle should be trained individually and with volume, for example, delts, front, side and rear should be trained as INDIVIDUAL muscles!

whateva

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2007, 10:10:20 AM »
Of course you can change the shape of your muscle,I didn't look the way I look today 15 years ago,if you can't change the shape of your muscle ,why even bother going to the gym ???

Bluto

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2007, 10:27:18 AM »
change shape in the sense - change peak of bicep

change shape of chest even inner chest etc
Z

Cee21Jay

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2007, 10:27:55 AM »
No, it's not a myth, I am a firm believer from a bodybuilding standpoint, each muscle should be trained individually and with volume, for example, delts, front, side and rear should be trained as INDIVIDUAL muscles!

I read my post again.  I think we agree?  Sorry if I miscommunicated.    I think you can train for shape to an extent.  Example.  I want a large upper chest. I hit pec major with volume and then I hit pec minor with volume to increase the appearance of size of the upper chest region (manipulating shape).  I agree with the Delt example.  I think we are generally in agreeance?  What do you think about selectively training the clavicular and sternal portion of the pec major?  I was pimped hard on this from an Anatomy guy in the past.

Edit:  Coach.  Read you view on muscle refinement and detail. I tend not to agree very strongly with you  on that.  In my opinion high rep guys tend to have a bit of a different look than low rep guys (which is some agreeance).

pumpster

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2007, 10:32:16 AM »
I think it's true. There are nuances to exercises that can't be done properly while going heavier. Focusing on feel and peaking motions can bring out striations & refinement that won't necessarily come out just from diet & going heavy.

Why an HIT guy like Casey Viator said that he would go with much higher volume pre-contest.

Also, training for detail which includes lighter weights and higher sets/reps lowers the risk of injury while dieting, and uses somewhat more calories by shifting the emphasis to endurance training.

tweeter

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2007, 10:51:46 AM »
Of course you can change the shape of your muscle,I didn't look the way I look today 15 years ago,if you can't change the shape of your muscle ,why even bother going to the gym ???
True, but I think the reason you are changing the shape of a muscle is because you are causing certain fibers within the muscle group to hypertrophy faster than others. I guess I should have worded my question a little differently. Do you think you can actually increase the detail of a muscle or the seperation between muscle groups by training or do you think this is just a result of how lean you are?

kyomu

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2007, 11:05:05 AM »
It's a myth.
Agree. Deeply i believe its a myth.
I have never ever seen any bber who could change their muscle shape or separation,also detail with training.
But,with practicing posing,yes. You still cant change the muscle shape but you can bring out some detail with muscle controle.

UNDERCOVER

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2007, 11:07:34 AM »
right now im training for detail and detail only! - craig titus bfto 2001

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2007, 11:09:25 AM »
True, but I think the reason you are changing the shape of a muscle is because you are causing certain fibers within the muscle group to hypertrophy faster than others. I guess I should have worded my question a little differently. Do you think you can actually increase the detail of a muscle or the seperation between muscle groups by training or do you think this is just a result of how lean you are?

no

separation and detail are controlled by how lean you are.

the only thing you should be doing with weights is building muscle, which is a hard enough job in itself.

put it this way, say if you had 20% bodyfat and you held a lot of fat in your legs.

do you actually think you are going to have a snowball's chance in hell of adding detail to those legs while still retaining 20% bodyfat?

if, on the other hand, you have fat legs but there wasn't much muscle there anyway and then you started building muscle in the legs, the extra muscle itself could show more shape and detail to your legs.

for every casey viator that went high reps/sets before contests there's a mentzer or yates that didn't.

which bbers were more successful? ;)

casey was only a success whilst with jones. left to his own devices he was not successful.

The Coach

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2007, 11:12:50 AM »
Agree. Deeply i believe its a myth.
I have never ever seen any bber who could change their muscle shape or separation,also detail with training.
But,with practicing posing,yes. You still cant change the muscle shape but you can bring out some detail with muscle controle.

The refinement of bodybuilders from 20 or so years ago was better than today, because, again, they trained individual muscle groups with higher volume and more sets, as opposed to today where most train with 2-3 exercises per bodypart and lower reps, I'll go into more depth later, have to work!

tweeter

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2007, 11:17:20 AM »
The refinement of bodybuilders from 20 or so years ago was better than today, because, again, they trained individual muscle groups with higher volume and more sets, as opposed to today where most train with 2-3 exercises per bodypart and lower reps, I'll go into more depth later, have to work!
Thats true but I thought that it might have more to do with all the gh and insulin that guys today take. I don't know much about these topics but I have heard it can make your skin thicker?

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2007, 11:19:42 AM »
Is there really such thing as training a muscle for refinement or detail or is this just a myth? It seems as if the muscle would either hypertrophy or atrophy and that detail would just be a result of the size of the muscle combined with your genetics and bodyfat level. Also, as far as training for "shape", you cannot change the attachments of your muscles so I do not believe this is possible either. I was just thinking about it because alot of times you hear bodybuilders talk about how they are just training for refinement or detail now.
Complete myth. 

kyomu

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2007, 11:21:01 AM »
The refinement of bodybuilders from 20 or so years ago was better than today, because, again, they trained individual muscle groups with higher volume and more sets, as opposed to today where most train with 2-3 exercises per bodypart and lower reps, I'll go into more depth later, have to work!
Just they are smaller than those monsters of now a day. Thats why they looked refined.So Its matter of size.

For example,look at Branch Warren of amateur NPC version. He was more refined than now.

BEAST 8692

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2007, 11:32:20 AM »
The refinement of bodybuilders from 20 or so years ago was better than today, because, again, they trained individual muscle groups with higher volume and more sets, as opposed to today where most train with 2-3 exercises per bodypart and lower reps, I'll go into more depth later, have to work!

another myth.

what a pile of steaming shit. why do i get the felling that this comment is a tad self serving.

if anyone from 20 years ago competed on stage today they would pale significantly by comparison.

imagine ronnie and gaspari in a posedown. they'd be carrying gaspari off in a stretcher from shock.

dr.chimps

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2007, 11:55:23 AM »
back in the day, coach had both.
Now, he just shouts at us to keep of his lawn.  :'(

The Coach

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Re: Training for detail / shape...does it exist?
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2007, 03:02:15 PM »
Thats true but I thought that it might have more to do with all the gh and insulin that guys today take. I don't know much about these topics but I have heard it can make your skin thicker?

Yes, the gh/insulin is a big contributor, but as far as making your skin thicker, no it won't. IMO, it's the combination of training like a powerlifter (HIT type of workouts) and having so much gear along with the insulin, it's makes it more difficult to regulate their systems. Again, look at most of the guys from 15-20 years ago and the pro's of today, back then conditioning was much sharper!!