Author Topic: Re: Pitbulls...........again  (Read 24434 times)

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2007, 12:53:58 PM »
Last time I checked animals did not have the ability to dichiper right from wrong. They need to be socialized and trained to act correctly. They are um ANIMALS. My argument was mearley a reference was not meant to be taken in the sense you twisted it. It was a analogy to show that people are not BORN bad. I bet a kid who grows up in a good home with good parents is just as likley to commit crimes as some kid who grows up in a shithole with no parents and surrounded by violence? It should not be an excuse, but it cannot be ignored. Good for you for overcoming the odds with the upbringing you had. To bad for every you there is a 1000 who dont make it.

Btw not giving a crap about your kid and allowing him or her to do whatever they want might make them more apt to commit crimes. You know since that whole teaching right from wrong thing and raising your kids is what makes them able to decipher how to act in society. You are a extreme monority. Humans need love and guidence as youths. Most would not make it given the circumstances you had.

Do you have pitts?
Do you let them run free in your yard?
What kind of fencing do you have?
Live in a city? Or Out all alone in the sticks?
Got good insh to cover that dogs liability?
Insh Co. know you have him on your property?
Got much equity in your home or other assets?

We aint talking kids here. Thats the problem, Americans anthropomorphize their pets.
It's a ANIMAL ,with CENTURIES  of selective breeding specifically for fighting in it.
Game ones are present day end line example of the best Dog Fighting K9 there is.
If you started all over breeding for a fighting dog - you'd end up with a pitt.
Make sure those animals cant get out if you know whats good for you.

body88

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2007, 12:59:42 PM »
I own a 90 lb american bulldog. Here is a picture of him when he was 10 months old. I have owned 2 pits in the past. Both where from "fighting" lines. I find your posts quit antogonistic and I am starting to think you are a gimmick. No responsible pit owner would set out to scare people off from the breed.

I train my dogs correctly. I supervise them. They would never "get out" to roam.


jmt1

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2007, 01:08:31 PM »
people can come up with all the bite stats they want.   the bottom line is anyone who is knowledgeable about the breed and how those stats are put

together, knows that it is all bs.  i would suggest that anyone who is really interested in the topic check out a book by karen delise, called fatal dog

attacks, the story behind the statistics.  she is the foremost expert on this topic and has stated that in all her research of well over 400 cases of fatal

dog attacks there has never been a single documented case where a household, neutered, pitbull has ever caused a human fatality.

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2007, 01:29:41 PM »
I own a 90 lb american bulldog. Here is a picture of him when he was 10 months old. I have owned 2 pits in the past. Both where from "fighting" lines. I find your posts quit antogonistic and I am starting to think you are a gimmick. No responsible pit owner would set out to scare people off from the breed.

I train my dogs correctly. I supervise them. They would never "get out" to roam.



No gimmic here Pal. BEAUTIFULL looking dog there, I'd hate you to loose him.
Im from farm country. Bet U I got more animal experience here than anyone but vet.
If you have pitts {SORRY, ANY DOG) long enough, you'll some day see them react suddenly to somthing like you never seen. They are animals. Ever been in a Bull Pen :o. Or Pig pen? Dude, animals got some suprise for you if you hang long w/ them.  You may not like guns, but Im gona make another analogy. We ALLWAYS keep weapon pointed in safe direction. Shoot 10s of Thousands of Rounds and you'll see a MALFUNCTION! Right when you least expect!
I seen a lot of seroius injurys in a life time of Const work. Most were needless.

The dude I got my gold Pitt from's Wife had a obvious disfiguring bite mark on her otherwise pretty face.
They both had a lifetime of pitt experience, and I saw her handle dogs. She knew what she was dooing.


 At the bitter end, I carried my 14 yr old Staffie outside to piss for weeks, and let him lay in the warm fall sunshine.  He died when I was at work a couple days after thanksgiving.
Awesome good hearted animal, with a bite like a hydrolic ram-vise.. Better than any $50K securety system.

You need to REALLY respect these animals if you choose to own one.
They aint your average doggie. BSing that they are aint gonna fly with me.
Gimmic?   ::)  I'm as real as it gets.  You making a lot of assumptions thet are way off target ;)

Luv2Hurt

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2007, 01:31:28 PM »

Hedge I am reffering to the list you posted that included the  "pitbull type" category.


No one is dodging any issue. You are posting inaccurate stats that are not only unfair, they are incorrect. A pitbull "type" or "mix" is not a pitbull. If a lab / pit mix kills someone where is the outrage over the fact the dog was half lab? I don't see anyone whining about the other breeds that get lumped into the "pitbull" group. Where is the outrage over boxers? How would medical studies work if the docs used inaccurate stats?

Golden retrievers are embraced by middle America. Pitbulls have been embraced by criminals and dog fighters. Inner city thugs and punks. Before pits it was rots. How many pitbulls do you hear about attacking people that where brought up correctly in some suburb in middle America with love and direction? A crazy dog is a crazy dog. It is not a pitbull thing. Pitbulls are sensationalised by the media. I could show you HUNDREDS of attacks that never make the news. I posted the link before, do you remember? No one cares if Betty the cocker spaniel maims a kid, but if a pit does it watch out!!! I posted a sight with thousands of fatal dog attack parpetrated by breeds ranging from Goldie's to jack russel's. You never hear about any of that tho do you? People think a pitbull is born aggressive towards humans. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You might want to look at how pits are exploited by humans.
Even with all the scumbags and thugs who own pits now in days you still have a better chance of dying from a lighting strike then being killed by a pit.


Lastly by the logic many anti pit people have the entire black race should be banned. Since it is impossible for people / animals to be a product of environment or upbringing blacks must naturally be aggressive, murders and criminals. Ban em all, right hedge?

Pit bull type is close enough to describe the type.  It really does not matter that they are just a little different.

body88

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2007, 01:33:10 PM »
Pit bull type is close enough to describe the type.  It really does not matter that they are just a little different.


No its not. A pitbull type includes boxers? Totally different breeds? Mutts? A half pitbull half lab is a pitbull? You dont know much about dogs if you think that is ok to base a real study on.

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2007, 01:34:04 PM »
people can come up with all the bite stats they want.   the bottom line is anyone who is knowledgeable about the breed and how those stats are put

together, knows that it is all bs.  i would suggest that anyone who is really interested in the topic check out a book by karen delise, called fatal dog

attacks, the story behind the statistics.  she is the foremost expert on this topic and has stated that in all her research of well over 400 cases of fatal

dog attacks there has never been a single documented case where a household, neutered, pitbull has ever caused a human fatality.

Do you let YOURS run free? Fence? Insh?
What kind of ASSets you got w/ equity?
Think about it.
Mauls my kid - It wont matter. Believe me, there plenty Guys here feel the same.
Your dog, My Kid. No contest end result when its all said and done.

Luv2Hurt

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #107 on: July 13, 2007, 01:42:22 PM »

No its not. A pitbull type includes boxers? Totally different breeds? Mutts? A half pitbull half lab is a pitbull? You dont know much about dogs if you think that is ok to base a real study on.

Does not include boxers.  Please the stats dont lie and I said from the begining the # of maulings from these and a couple other breeds is highly disproportianate to the population of the breed.  This will not go away and is the most telling fact of them all.  So try and change the facts as much as you want but when 2 breeds that make up a total of 6-7% of the dog population are responsible for 60% of the deaths caused by all dogs, something is very wrong.

Now please stop with the semantics.

gtbro1

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #108 on: July 13, 2007, 01:48:32 PM »
I own a 90 lb american bulldog. Here is a picture of him when he was 10 months old. I have owned 2 pits in the past. Both where from "fighting" lines. I find your posts quit antogonistic and I am starting to think you are a gimmick. No responsible pit owner would set out to scare people off from the breed.

I train my dogs correctly. I supervise them. They would never "get out" to roam.



  Body...trab  gots  himself all kinds of smarts about them there pitbulls.Aint no city slicker gona know more about critters than him...no matter how much of that there fancy book learnin' he gots.

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #109 on: July 13, 2007, 01:58:55 PM »
  Body...trab  gots  himself all kinds of smarts about them there pitbulls.Aint no city slicker gona know more about critters than him...no matter how much of that there fancy book learnin' he gots.

Your Assumptions about me are way off. I AM a born country boy who's LIVED AND WORKED in... LA, SLC,Indy,
ChiTown,Rockford,GreenBay and Bangkok. Ive traveled most all of the USA and Europe too.

Insults and emotions don't change jaw strength or all those Hospital mauling reports.
I don't need to be emotional here.

jmt1

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #110 on: July 13, 2007, 02:01:40 PM »
Do you let YOURS run free? Fence? Insh?
What kind of ASSets you got w/ equity?
Think about it.
Mauls my kid - It wont matter. Believe me, there plenty Guys here feel the same.
Your dog, My Kid. No contest end result when its all said and done.

do i let my pit run free?   there is a leash law so i obey that when i walk her.  i live in a urban area.
do i let her run free outside around the apt?  yes, she runs around and plays off leash in back of my apt complex.  she runs around and plays with all the kids who play out there.  alot of times they ring my doorbell and ask me if she can come out.
am i worried she is gonna bite one of the kids or someone else?  absoulutely not.
do i let her run free around other dogs?  yes, she goes to a dog park.  this is not something all pitbulls can do but i keep my eye on her because if she was ever attacked by another dog im aware something could happen.  but never had any problems.

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #111 on: July 13, 2007, 02:16:14 PM »
do i let my pit run free?   there is a leash law so i obey that when i walk her.  i live in a urban area.
do i let her run free outside around the apt?  yes, she runs around and plays off leash in back of my apt complex.  she runs around and plays with all the kids who play out there.  alot of times they ring my doorbell and ask me if she can come out.
am i worried she is gonna bite one of the kids or someone else?  absoulutely not.
do i let her run free around other dogs?  yes, she goes to a dog park.  this is not something all pitbulls can do but i keep my eye on her because if she was ever attacked by another dog im aware something could happen.  but never had any problems.


I know what your sayin, most love people.
But,It only takes once. All dogs are strange. Animal behavior is not human behavior. People forget that.
Like I said and Vet alluded to, K9s have some triggers that NO person fully understands.
You throw the right conditions together and BAM! Too late. This aint a Peek-a-Poo Bite man. Dont kid me or yourself.
People been ripped to hell by their own Pitts because they didnt recognize them when they came home.
 Once one hits and blood flys, its too late. Have you ever seen 2 of them get into it w/ each other? Good God, its awefull!
How you want 2 on you? Or take some kid down to ground?

body88

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2007, 02:44:41 PM »
Does not include boxers.  Please the stats dont lie and I said from the begining the # of maulings from these and a couple other breeds is highly disproportianate to the population of the breed.  This will not go away and is the most telling fact of them all.  So try and change the facts as much as you want but when 2 breeds that make up a total of 6-7% of the dog population are responsible for 60% of the deaths caused by all dogs, something is very wrong.

Now please stop with the semantics.

Yes it does include boxers. If a person is attacked  by a brindle boxer and they know jack shit about dogs they often report it as a pitbull. " the tiger looking dog, muscular with big teeth. That = pitbull to person who does not know breeds. My dog is mistaken for a very large pitbull over and over. I do not own a pitbull currently. I own a brindle and white American Bulldog. It is NOT the same thing. That is not semantics that is a fact. Please look up the breed characteristics for proof.


Btw the way the study you are talking about is flawed. You obv have done no more research then look at the chart and form an opinion. If you had you would have found out this study was found to be flawed long ago.


A dogo is not a apbt. A Presa Canario is not a apbt. A americn bulldog is not a apbt. Lets make a bet. I will post six dogs and you tell me which ones are pitbulls, ok?


Go ahead and ban pitbulls and rottys. Then ban the next breed that people exploit. Pretty soon we can all own a lab or a nice Goldie. Then we can own nothing. I know that is what America is all about.


You should stop with blowing pitbull deaths out of proportion. You have more chance to be killed by a shark or hit by lightning then killed by a pit/ rot.


Do you use steriods when you compete?

Vet

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2007, 03:24:16 PM »
Pit bull type is close enough to describe the type.  It really does not matter that they are just a little different.

Bullshit.  It matters a great deal.   When my boxer was alive, I also had an AmStaff and an APBT.   If I was out walking the three dogs or training them in my front yard people would ask over and over an over about the "Brown pit" I had (the other dogs were brindle male and dark brown/chocolate female)---that dog had been a rescue, someone had stabbed him repeatedly and caused him to have second and third degree burns on his chest so he had a couple of reasonably big scars that people would ask about--ask me if he got them pit fighting more often than not---again implying that he was some type of "pitbull".  The two "Pitts" could be sitting there right next to him and people seemed to be unable to tell the difference between the three breeds.   

Last night the neighbors asked me about the new Dogo rescue I took in---if the "giant white pitbull" was nice or not and how he was getting along with my other dogs.  They couldn't tell the difference between a Dogo and an APBT, even though the Dogo is a dog that outweighs any semblance of breed standard for a pitbull by over 35 lbs and is 10 inches taller.  My experiences with that boxer, what happened last night, and with workign at the humane society have led me to believe that the average person has so many false misconceptions about the APBT breed specifically its amazing.  These misconceptions are skewed by the media, by the internet, and by word of mouth.  That is a very, very, very significant point in breed related statistics.  The breeds have to be identified correctly or every bit of the study is skewed by the misidentification of the individual who doesn't know the dog. 

Vet

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2007, 03:25:11 PM »
A properly socialzed / trained pitbull is no diff then a properly socialized lab mentally.The difference is in the athletic ability and strength.

Should people who are bigger and stronger then others be penalized sicne they COULD harm you further then Joe schmoe. Me thinks most on this board would fall into this catogory.


Pitbulls are far more likley to be abused, fought, trained incorrectly or exploited then any goldie or lab.

I agree

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #115 on: July 13, 2007, 03:44:03 PM »
I agree

Once again. Dogs are animals not people. Quit anthropomorphizing them and stick to the issue.
Pit bites are far beyond the normal dog and they are in a disproportionate #  &  %  of serious maulings.

Hedgehog

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #116 on: July 13, 2007, 03:57:05 PM »
A properly socialzed / trained pitbull is no diff then a properly socialized lab mentally.The difference is in the athletic ability and strength.

Should people who are bigger and stronger then others be penalized sicne they COULD harm you further then Joe schmoe. Me thinks most on this board would fall into this catogory.


Pitbulls are far more likley to be abused, fought, trained incorrectly or exploited then any goldie or lab.

How could we prevent dogs from being abused?

Because I guess that is what is actually happening, when they turn into aggressive individuals.

Lets just accept the fact that people wants to have pitbulls, am staf, dogos, and other muscular dogs.

That's the way it is.

And the dogs that have good owners, like body88's, and others, aren't the problem obviously.

It's the BYB's, the thug dogs, the gang dogs, et al.

What could be done to help the dogs?

IMO, dog owners needs to organize and fight, not against misconceptions about "pitbulls".

But rather against the bad seeds among the dog owners.

Those are hurting legit dog owners 1000 times more than any legislator in Sacramento ever could do.

-Hedge
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knny187

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #117 on: July 13, 2007, 04:09:08 PM »
Once again. Dogs are animals not people. Quit anthropomorphizing them and stick to the issue.
Pit bites are far beyond the normal dog and they are in a disproportionate #  &  %  of serious maulings.


You just got done saying how Vet knows everything & knows more about K9's than anybody here on Getbig

jmt1

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2007, 04:09:41 PM »

Pit bites are far beyond the normal dog and they are in a disproportionate #  &  %  of serious maulings.


as i posted earlier the nations leading expert on this subject had said that there has never been ONE documented case where a household, neutered, pitbull terrier has been responsible for a human fatality.

Vet

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2007, 04:09:57 PM »
Do you have pitts?
Do you let them run free in your yard?
What kind of fencing do you have?
Live in a city? Or Out all alone in the sticks?
Got good insh to cover that dogs liability?
Insh Co. know you have him on your property?
Got much equity in your home or other assets?

We aint talking kids here. Thats the problem, Americans anthropomorphize their pets.
It's a ANIMAL ,with CENTURIES  of selective breeding specifically for fighting in it.
Game ones are present day end line example of the best Dog Fighting K9 there is.
If you started all over breeding for a fighting dog - you'd end up with a pitt.
Make sure those animals cant get out if you know whats good for you.

Ok, you know, in a weird way, I have to agree with much of what you say---because its basically responsible pet ownership: don't let your pets run free, train them, have adequate fencing around your yard and so on.  

I do not agree with your idea of pits having some unnaturally strong biting ability compared to other large dog breeds.  They are a large powerful dog.  No one is denying this.  The thing is they will bite like a large powerful dog---one that is without a doubt capable fo hurting a human being, but not in some supernatural way.  I've tried to present this from different angles to get you to understand they do not have any scientifically proven unique ability to bite harder than any other large breed of dog---from the standpoint of the one study done on pits biting (which I'll freely admit I think is flawed, but its the only study) to the standpoint of physiology/anatomy of their teeth as the limiting factor in a bite, to general attitude of a well socialized and trained dog.  You still are holding onto the idea that they have some unnaturally strong biting ability.  I'm not sure why, but I'm going to say it again, with the scientific evidence available, they don't when compared to other large breed dogs.

You also mention years of breeding as a justification for your thoughts on their supermouths.  The thing is you really, really need to get away from the pitfighting part of that breeds history---which I'll agree with you is a very important part of creating the dogs we know today, but is not the only point--to fully understand the breed.  Pit fighting was not the only activity these dogs were used for---they were used as a working, hunting, guardian breed and have been since the devlopment of the breed.  On the frontier, pit bulls were an "all-purpose" dog. They herded cattle and sheep.  They served as faithful family guardians, protecting families and livestock from the ever-present threat of thieves and wild animals.  They served as companions.  You absolutely have to aknowledge this if you are going to discuss the history of the breed.  

You also mention the unwillingness to quit---I don't know if you have thought about it, but that is a trait of all hunting terriers, be it an APBT or an Airedale (a breed which was used by the German army to deliver messages in WWI because it would continue to attempt to deliver the message even after having limbs blown off by mortar rounds) or a rat terrier.  When my parents bred black and tans and redbones for raccoon hunting, our pack leader was an Airedale for almost 11 years---because he wouldn't quit the hunt and he'd keep the pack going after the hounds were on the verge of giving up.  Tenaciousness is a terrier trait, its not something specific to pitbulls, but is something shared by all terriers.

Finally the thing you need to consider is that pitbulls were not the only dog breed fought---what about Boston Terriers, "Wolf dogs" (including German Shepards and Malamutes), black and tan and blood hounds, and all of the others?   Are they as bad of a "loaded gun"?

The bottom line is APBT's are large, powerful dogs.  They are capable of damaging bites, just like any other large powerful dog breed.  They should be owned by responsible pet owners, which includes people who take the time to train the dog for basic commands, leash walking, monitor the location of the dog--be it inside or outside--and above all don't allow their large dog to get into a situation where negative things could happen.  

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #120 on: July 13, 2007, 04:10:16 PM »
How could we prevent dogs from being abused?

Because I guess that is what is actually happening, when they turn into aggressive individuals.

Lets just accept the fact that people wants to have pitbulls, am staf, dogos, and other muscular dogs.

That's the way it is.

And the dogs that have good owners, like body88's, and others, aren't the problem obviously.

It's the BYB's, the thug dogs, the gang dogs, et al.

What could be done to help the dogs?

IMO, dog owners needs to organize and fight, not against misconceptions about "pitbulls".

But rather against the bad seeds among the dog owners.

Those are hurting legit dog owners 1000 times more than any legislator in Sacramento ever could do.

-Hedge


Its not only that, I wish it were. It would still be hard or impossible to solve.

The problem is they are animals, with their own hardwired makeup. Certian combinations of things will trigger them to REACT. When a pit reacts it's a lot different than a Lab, no matter what anyone here wants to lead us to believe. I see a couple guys here that are a disaster waitng to happen. I'd love to see how their dogs are fenced, and how often left totaly unatended. Its just a matter of time till that dog feels his teritory is threatend in ways we dont comprehend.

If manditory dog insh were implemented, pitt breeds would pay a heavy premium.
Maybe thats the way it SHOULD be. A tiny dog is not near the liability of a Pitt, Staff, Rottie etc.
Want to play, pay.

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #121 on: July 13, 2007, 04:12:37 PM »
You just got done saying how Vet knows everything & knows more about K9's than anybody here on Getbig

Excuse me? Either YOU have Reading comprehension Problems or I miss typed.
Please quote.

Vet

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #122 on: July 13, 2007, 04:13:18 PM »
Pit bites are far beyond the normal dog .


Please stop stating this as a fact.  It is an opinion.  If you can put up legitimate scientific references to this fact, I will change what I am saying.   Until then, I am sticking with what I have been posting---they are a large breed dog.  That is it, nothing more, nothing less.  

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #123 on: July 13, 2007, 04:16:01 PM »
How could we prevent dogs from being abused?

Because I guess that is what is actually happening, when they turn into aggressive individuals.

Lets just accept the fact that people wants to have pitbulls, am staf, dogos, and other muscular dogs.

That's the way it is.

And the dogs that have good owners, like body88's, and others, aren't the problem obviously.

It's the BYB's, the thug dogs, the gang dogs, et al.

What could be done to help the dogs?

IMO, dog owners needs to organize and fight, not against misconceptions about "pitbulls".

But rather against the bad seeds among the dog owners.

Those are hurting legit dog owners 1000 times more than any legislator in Sacramento ever could do.

-Hedge

Hedge, I agree with you. This is a very good post that this thread is really epitomizing.  People have their ideas about pitbulls and they will fight like a "Pitbull"  ;)  to prove that their opinions and ideas are correct, even in the face of proof that they may be wrong

trab

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Re: Pitbulls...........again
« Reply #124 on: July 13, 2007, 04:21:21 PM »
Please stop stating this as a fact.  It is an opinion.  If you can put up legitimate scientific references to this fact, I will change what I am saying.   Until then, I am sticking with what I have been posting---they are a large breed dog.  That is it, nothing more, nothing less.  

EVERYONE has seen film of Pitts hang and shake. As well as rip the hell out of people and kids way worse then
any average dog other than danes, rottie etc can.
Sorry but PPL have eyes and brains.