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Author Topic: Ironage B.S. re old time use of steroids  (Read 37702 times)
alexxx
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2007, 09:54:51 AM »

Very cool pics Made in Montana.

I have tremendous respect for Steve Reeves.

Even that fully clothed shot looks insane! Crazy wide shoulders!

I hope to get mine that wide some day.

And lucky you to share his genetics! Wink
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 11:55:20 AM »

Wendy Leigh stated in her book Arnold: An Unauthorized Biography on p. 27 that Kurt Marnul told Arnold about steroids and that Marnul said he learned about steroids and their dosage from Steve Reeves, whom he claims to have met in France during a 1952 vacation. Here's what Steve said about this (these are his exact words when he was asked about this in an interview):

"That statement has also been brought to my attention by a friend who surfs the internet. No, it is not true. I never heard of steroids until the mid 1960s and I was never in France during the 1950s! My first trip to France was in 1948 when I entered and won the "Mr. World" contest in Cannes. My second trip to France was not until 1960 when I attended the premiere of my movie, "The Last Days of Pompeii. I have never heard of Kurt Marnul and I don't know what motive he had in making that statement to Arnold. I can only speculate that he might have mixed me up with another bodybuilder of that period, or that he was trying to impress Arnold by telling him that he knew me" (Building the Classic Physique, p. 171).

This photo was taken during the Mr. World contest.


It is my opinion that Marnul thought that Arnold might listen to him about steroids if he thought other bodybuilders were doing them. Marnul lied and Wendy Leigh is sloppy not to include the whole story and talk to Steve before printing her book. This kind of thing is important to a bodybuilder. She apparently isn't one and didn't care about clarifying the truth. She loses credibility too.

You know your stuff Grin

These pics are gold! Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2007, 01:53:12 AM »

Made in Montana,

In Steve Reeves' day, were the mandatories in use? You know, double bi, side chest, side tri, etc?
Never seen him nor his contemporaries displaying some of the poses, mainly variations thereof.

Going back to my comment in jest earlier in thread, how did Reeves stay in shape while on location(filming)? Lets face it, I believe most films were shot in Italy, and that country wasnt exactly great for a bbers diet those days, and what about training, makeshift equipment?
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2007, 06:37:44 AM »

Made in Montana [ Roll Eyes], you're relying on Streeve Reeve's word - which doesn't mean shit. You clearly worship the ground he used to mince on, and that's fair enough - but its time to get real. PEOPLE LIE!!! For decades, DECADES, Arnold, Franco, Zane and all the others SWORE they never used steroids. They were lying. When Arnold said he didn't grope those girls - he was lying. When Franco denied being Arnold's bottom - he was lying. When Reeves claimed he never used steroids - he was lying. So what? Get over it.
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2007, 04:12:22 PM »

Great pics.

As far as the steroid thing goes, regarding Reeves, I don't think we'll get anywhere debating it. Made in Montana knew him, and this is one of those legends that we can at least admire in the sense that he didn't talk shit, or insult our intelligence.

I started this thread aiming at the bigger, more defined, and conditioned physiques of the late 60's onwards anyway. Not to say they were better than Reeves, because somethings you don't find in a bottle.

Very inspirational stuff, please keep it coming.
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« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2007, 01:22:29 AM »

The guys in question are the ones who looked 3X bigger than Steve while using steroids, but shriveled up and looked half his size when they stop taking them.

That's what I'm talking about. Sure, one can argue, the guy retired, what does he have to train/eat for? But naturally attained lean tissue will not wither away like that, especially if it was achieved naturally by an individual thats supposedly drug-free, and has the genes to grow and hold on to muscle naturally.
The feat that Steve couldn't train upper body properly for years, and stayed in shape, exemplifies this point.
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« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2007, 03:46:12 AM »

great pics on this thread - particularly the one of the 4 mr americas is cool

the only way to settle the steroid debate - get kurt marnul to post on this thread - what reason does he have to lie after all these years ?  did he say that to impress a young arnold or did he actually meet reeves when he won the mr world?  track down marnul...
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« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2007, 01:03:07 PM »

Made in Montana, wow, what a meltdown!

1] I used Arnold, Franco and Zane as examples because they're the most famous. Arnold only admitted to using steroids post 91 - before that he never admitted it, or 'cheekily' laughed off the question. To my knowledge Franco has never admitted it!

2] You obviously think the word of 'Streeve Reeveees' is golden. Pathetic. For all you know he was not only using steroids but sucking off underage latino schoolboys.

3] whereas you believe Reeeeveeeees, i choose to believe Sergio. You say "Sergio must have been mistaken", "Marnul must have been mistaken. He meant a different Streeve Reeeveeees" etc etc.

4] Why do you care if i make spelling or grammatical errors?

5] Streeve used steroids. Prove he didn't. Not by saying, "he was a man of his word" etc. I want you o provide photographic eveidence of everyday that Streeevee was alive. If you can do that then i will admit he was clean. Otherwise he was a juicer. Deal with it, bitch.
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« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2007, 01:59:26 PM »

Innocent until proven guilty I say - if you guys have no proof then his natural status stands.
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« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2007, 04:14:04 PM »

Made in Montana,

The pics and posts relating stories have been gold.

Ignore the b.s. and keep up with the history lessons.

I couldn't care less about proving right and wrong, and being a keyboard warrior, as 'bodies' said, no proof of otherwise, then he was clean. And as I've said before, even if he wasn't clean, he still puts juicers to shame in our day, so it makes no diff.

Can you elaborate on Reeves' use of gelatin(jello you call it in the States?) and eggs(if I'm not mistaken?) in order to create a perfect protein? Read about it many years ago...
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« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2007, 05:03:15 PM »

Hey Made in Montana,

Just wanted to let you know I appreciate all the contibutions you bring to these boards. Stories like these from an insider on top, are golden.

A lot of pictures you post I have never seen before and don't think I could find on the internet for free.

I am curious as to know what your stats are.. if you'd be willing to share. Are you going to compete also?

Anyways a big thank you from me and many others who will be viewing your posts.
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« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2007, 10:15:39 PM »

It's very romantic to view steve like made in montana wants to but reality was different my buddy
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« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2007, 01:33:20 AM »


this is the last time i respond to this topic after some of you beg me to in private messeges.
i chose to quote this specific dude for no particular reason so dont get all offended on me.

if,,when,,why,,where,, all this words dont matter. the only place i would put the IF word is in this sentence,,,:if you cant see for yourself what it takes to be the leader of the pack when it comes to bodybuilding,,,then you dont know your sport/industry. infact then it was the leader of the pack and few other lucky ones,,,now days it is any one in the pack,,,even the local thomas county georgia ymca night champ is on.

you put lots of nonesense,,i knew,,i trained,,,myfriend was eating dinner with,,my granma cooked,,it dont matter.

steve reeves never had kids
steve reeves was absorbed with himself
steve reeves was a womanizer  ,,which i support in a way,,
steve reeves was experiementing with hormones
steve reeves was a loner,,no one knew his personality well because he was a loner that liked animals more than people
steve reeves walked day and night thinking how he can make himself bigger (yes 220 6% in 1940 was very big and still is to this day even at 6'1)


lastly,,ingeneral for all of you lifters of the late 70s-2000s,,,,when you enter a gym tellin your buddies and hoes around that you are not jacked and you dont touch juice,,you gotta remember that growth, igf1lr3 and insulin are  A HELL OF A LOT better than juice for building muscle/size and also are legal for use for "research" in many states and countries around the world.
 
so simply get off the olympus my friends,,ive seen it all,,heard it all,,,every day we got 10 steve reeves come to us buying their goodies and then email us 2 hours later asking how come its not there yet,,,this is body-building,,,every one for himself.

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« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2007, 01:41:47 AM »

Never knew Nubret was inspired by Reeves.

Makes sense though, his physique does emulate Steve's lines. Both had/have superior genes. Nubret great example of genetics, at his age, he puts 20-somethings to shame, wether he was or is(doubt it) enhanced, is irrelevant, at that age, a natural foundation shines through, as those who don't possess it, wither away. Thats not a drug 'built' physique.

Was Serge in close contact with Reeves?

Wanted to ask as others have, to post pics of yourself, but don't know if its worth the ragging and nitpicking you're sure to get. You could look like a carbon-copy of Reeves, but an "expert" will find fault... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2007, 01:55:18 AM »

this is the last time i respond to this topic after some of you beg me to in private messeges.
i chose to quote this specific dude for no particular reason so dont get all offended on me.

if,,when,,why,,where,, all this words dont matter. the only place i would put the IF word is in this sentence,,,:if you cant see for yourself what it takes to be the leader of the pack when it comes to bodybuilding,,,then you dont know your sport/industry. infact then it was the leader of the pack and few other lucky ones,,,now days it is any one in the pack,,,even the local thomas county georgia ymca night champ is on.

you put lots of nonesense,,i knew,,i trained,,,myfriend was eating dinner with,,my granma cooked,,it dont matter.

steve reeves never had kids
steve reeves was absorbed with himself
steve reeves was a womanizer  ,,which i support in a way,,
steve reeves was experiementing with hormones
steve reeves was a loner,,no one knew his personality well because he was a loner that liked animals more than people
steve reeves walked day and night thinking how he can make himself bigger (yes 220 6% in 1940 was very big and still is to this day even at 6'1)


lastly,,ingeneral for all of you lifters of the late 70s-2000s,,,,when you enter a gym tellin your buddies and hoes around that you are not jacked and you dont touch juice,,you gotta remember that growth, igf1lr3 and insulin are  A HELL OF A LOT better than juice for building muscle/size and also are legal for use for "research" in many states and countries around the world.
 
so simply get off the olympus my friends,,ive seen it all,,heard it all,,,every day we got 10 steve reeves come to us buying their goodies and then email us 2 hours later asking how come its not there yet,,,this is body-building,,,every one for himself.



I find gh15's posts interesting, and sometimes enlightening, but not the be-all-end-all, as some on here do.

This is speculation and conjecture forming a theory, which is fine, and can be shared as a conspiracy theory, but it means nothing without proof that someone heard Steve say something or saw an actual syringe piercing a buttock, or a tablet being swallowed (sounds weird if read out of context Undecided), Till then, its a theory fomed by someone who didn't know him, forming an argument that some believe (maybe because you want to), however, M in M obviously knew him, and he has proven it and beyond. At first I was sceptical, as we come across "experts" and "friends" all the time here, but now realize we should cherish the info and pics he is sharing with us, as real fans should.

In other words, lets not fuck it up and chase the guy away pissed, he' a good poster, and has been corteous and patient with doubters, including myself.
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« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2007, 06:12:26 AM »

Much respect to him but I CANNOT SWALLOW HIS BULLSHIT ABOUT REEVES BEING NATURAL AND ALL ...IT JUST INSULTS MY INTELLIGENCE....SORRY BUT I'M SO FED UPWITH THE NATURAL BULLSHIT....I'D RATHER HAVE HIM FUCK OFF THIS BOARD BUT I LIKE DEMOCRACY SO EVERYONEIS ENTITLED TO HIS/HER OPP....
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« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2007, 06:49:38 AM »

I'm all for democracy, Sevastase.
But perhaps you're letting your frustation (which I share, hence this thread) get the better of you, and venting and targeting it on an individual?
This man is not only related, but also looks up to Reeves, and his memory. Should someone speak in an ill-fashioned manner about your deceased relative whom you cherished very much and along with a large percentage of people idolized, you too would take it personally.
As far as M in M knows, as told to him by Reeves and not refuted by anyone else, the man did not touch anabolics. Now, you disagree, but its only your opinion, with no back-up.

As an example, I know for fucking sure there ain't no way Lance Armstrong did not dope, he denies it, and people believe him, due to his adversity overcoming background, and because they need something to believe in. But I can't prove it, can I? No, I can't. So that frustrates me.

Perhaps thats how you feel about Reeves, but till proven otherwise, he was clean...
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« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2007, 09:52:53 PM »

Made in Montana, wow, what a meltdown!

1] I used Arnold, Franco and Zane as examples because they're the most famous. Arnold only admitted to using steroids post 91 - before that he never admitted it, or 'cheekily' laughed off the question. To my knowledge Franco has never admitted it!

2] You obviously think the word of 'Streeve Reeveees' is golden. Pathetic. For all you know he was not only using steroids but sucking off underage latino schoolboys.

3] whereas you believe Reeeeveeeees, i choose to believe Sergio. You say "Sergio must have been mistaken", "Marnul must have been mistaken. He meant a different Streeve Reeeveeees" etc etc.

4] Why do you care if i make spelling or grammatical errors?

5] Streeve used steroids. Prove he didn't. Not by saying, "he was a man of his word" etc. I want you o provide photographic eveidence of everyday that Streeevee was alive. If you can do that then i will admit he was clean. Otherwise he was a juicer. Deal with it, bitch.
I agree with you UK about Steeves drug use,but I have an old copy of M&F (early 80s) where Arnold talks about where he went wrong with his contest drug stack at the Australian O,so he was open about it long before 91.
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« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2007, 10:03:21 PM »

Made in Montana :.....Bob Kennedy has said in an interview that "all" of the old timers were on the sauce ,what do you say to this?Realising that Bob is/was very close to Steve.
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« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2007, 11:51:23 PM »

I can tell you that back in the 1960s steroid use and talk was insider only stuff. Weightlifters were using but not one bodybuilder admitting to using in the early 60s. It was considered cheating. So, if anyone were using they would deny it and, anyway, how could one prove otherwise?  In my opinion I doubt many men have won big contests natural since 1970.

If we look at the history of doping in sport and bodybuilding it is clear the weightlifters and bodybuilders were at the cutting edge of what was used. It was always assumed the Eastern bloc used steroids as far back as the 50s. Did champion bodybuilders from the 50s use steroids? I really don't know. There have been rumours but that is hardly proof. What we do know is none of those guys have any visible side effects such as gynocomastia, etc.

Let us do a thought experiment. Remember that steroid use was considered cheating and therefore immoral. Those drugs were also considered dangerous because it was thought they might trigger cancers, etc. Well, if you were training your guts out and getting average results would you use anabolics or testosterone if no one would ever know or find out? Would you confess to being a cheater and therefore cancel any titles and honours won through using drugs? I dare say just about everyone would deny using anything at all.

The champions from the past die and take the truth with them. In the absence of confessions we have to suspend judgment one way or other. It is neither nice to accuse people who may have been naturals nor honourable to insist they are so when we cannot know that for certain. This is one issue that will remain controversial until someone resolves things to everyone's satisfaction.

Looking back at Arnold and Sergio I can tell you they were absolutely huge and unbelievable in those days. How on earth did they get so much bigger than just about everyone else? Larry Scott retired after glimpsing Sergio. It appears safe to assume that no Mr Olympia was a natural. The first Mr Olympia was in 1965. Drugs were used long before then. How much earlier is something the historians will have to determine but I believe it was about 1956 or so. It would be interesting to get into the archives of Ciba and discover some of the facts there.

One of the interesting things about Reeves is to explain how he got such a great physique without doing as much training as most of the lads were doing. He seemed to do a few sets and get big.

From what I have read I doubt anyone used steroids in the 1940s but it is still possible because Dr John Ziegler claimed to have developed steroids to help wounded soldiers in WWII. Did the lads use testosterone in the 40s? No one seems to know.

One thing is certain. Every champion before 1970 would be astonished by the drug protocols used today by men and women professional bodybuilders. They wouldn't be pleased at what those agents do to the bodybuilders or the sport.
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« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2007, 01:53:18 AM »

Years back, in a MMI (muclemag international)issue, if not mistaken, I read an interview of Reeves(before his passing), where they discussed his early training. He stated that at the gym where he had been training, the guys had asked him how had he made such progress so fast, was he on the juice? He said yes, he drank orange juice... Grin
Obviously then, that shows us that his peers knew full well about "juice", that it was available, that they probably took, and that at that time, at least, Reeves too became aware. It doesn't however, say he took any.

The pic at 14 is amazing. Did he start training at 7? Shocked

The cover of Muscle, is that Don Ross with Nubret?



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« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2007, 08:02:01 AM »

This is a fantastic topic. Thanks for all the great info Made in Montana
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« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2007, 03:49:32 PM »

Much respect to him but I CANNOT SWALLOW HIS BULLSHIT ABOUT REEVES BEING NATURAL AND ALL ...IT JUST INSULTS MY INTELLIGENCE....SORRY BUT I'M SO FED UPWITH THE NATURAL BULLSHIT....I'D RATHER HAVE HIM FUCK OFF THIS BOARD BUT I LIKE DEMOCRACY SO EVERYONEIS ENTITLED TO HIS/HER OPP....

Dude i've seen your pics and your attention-starved posts. You're once again trolling for attention.
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« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2007, 09:13:34 AM »

I followed the Irongame through collecting old magazines some of which featured Reeves winning the Mr America in 1947. The various writers would have heard if anyone was using steroids. I didn't hear anything about drugs until I went to UBC in the early 60s. No one knew for sure so it was all hush hush. There were a few weightlifters hoisting 50+ pounds more than anyone at the same bodyweight. We just assumed they were naturals and better athletes. Everyone who read the magazines assumed the Russians were doing things to give their lifters an advantage and they beat the Americans for decades and probably still do.

Steve Reeves seemed to be the epitome of health because he was influenced by a woman who ran that boarding house about nutrition. Steve wanted to live to be 100 and be healthy. He had great hair and perfect teeth. In those days health was important. I was shocked when Steve died at age about 75 a few years ago. I always assumed he would live to be older than Grimek who died age 89 or 90.

We heard that Steve didn't hang out with the muscleheads but did his own thing. That he was able to do rather brief training and win titles shows he was ahead of his time. The guys who beat Steve in 1949 are not heard of much anymore. I really am amazed because Grimek was hailed as the Monarch of Muscledom and Clarence Ross was the King of Bodybuilders. They were in all the magazines and Ross, especially, was used in ads to sell protein, etc.

From a philosopher of science point of view it really is not possible to establish beyond doubt what the lads did or didn't do in those days. The stain from any improper activity was so great that I doubt anyone would admit if in fact they had done so. We can change our minds if sufficient evidence is ever presented that is convincing. That anyone who knows Steve swears the guy wouldn't do anything like that is not evidence in itself. Character references don't prove or disprove facts. Thanks to MinM for the posts about Steve because all of that information helps us know Steve better.

I honestly think using drugs in those days (1940) was literally betraying the bodybuilding/health movement. If someone cheated on an exam and nobody found out would they ever confess? Well, there you are. No bodybuilder from those days is going to say a word. Those who claim all were naturals in the 40s don't have anyone contradicting them who has any evidence to the contrary. That in itself is not absolute proof there were no cheaters. It would be an interesting, but huge, task to reread all those old magazines to see when Dianabol or any other agent was first mentioned.

Clearly this discussion board cannot settle this matter because it is a factual matter. All the arguments in the world cannot enlighten us about things we have no way of knowing for certain. Let us respect Steve Reeves and I dare say John Grimek as great natural champions from the Golden era of bodybuilding.

I believe we should honour Steve and accept that he was natural when he competed up until he retired in 1950 when he beat Reg Park for the Mr Universe title.
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« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2007, 12:03:50 PM »

Physique wise what impresses me most about Reeves is his width. Hey may not be all that thick but is wide like a barndoor!
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