Author Topic: Sad, But True!  (Read 5946 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2007, 10:24:22 AM »
Where did you see their food on? I saw a sample clip all I can say is damn! That is alot of good looking food, they even had a choice of two different choices per meal.
I think I read they get 3500-4k calories a day.

Torture, American style:

Meals totaling a whopping 4,200 calories per day are brought to their cells, well above the 2,000 to 3,000 calories recommended for weight maintenance by U.S. government dietary guidelines. And some inmates are eating everything on the menu.

One detainee has almost doubled in weight, to 410 pounds, said Navy Cmdr. Robert Durand, spokesman for the detention facilities at Guantanamo, a U.S. Navy station in southeast Cuba.

. . .

Most of the prisoners at Guantanamo picked up in Afghanistan and other conflict zones were slightly underweight when they arrived. Since then, they've gained an average of 20 pounds, and most are now "normal to mildly overweight or mildly obese," according to the most recent measurements, he said.

The meals include meats prepared according to Islamic guidelines, along with fresh bread, vegetables and yogurt. With nearly all detainees fasting in the daytime during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, authorities have arranged for a post-sunset meal and a midnight meal. Traditional desserts and honey also are served during the Ramadan observances.

. . .

Prisoners at Guantanamo who behave well get more exercise time. The most compliant get up to 12 hours a week, including access to treadmills, stationary bikes and other fitness equipment, Durand said. Guantanamo officials say compliance is gauged solely by whether a detainee follows detention center rules and avoids causing disturbances, and has nothing to do with whether he is providing information to interrogators.

. . .

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/10/03/international/i134745D60.DTL

Geeze Louise.  Hotel Guantanamo. 


headhuntersix

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2007, 10:44:08 AM »
I'm sure everything is prepared in sanitary conditions as well. Unlike in a friggen cave. With all the eyes on Gitmo, is anybody going to be mistreated.
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Decker

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2007, 10:45:12 AM »
Torture, American style:

...
No this is torture american style: Photographs of dogs snarling at prisoners, of women being forced at gunpoint to expose their breasts, of hooded prisoners being forced to masturbate, and of forced homosexual acts were among those shown to members of Congress yesterday.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1215645,00.html

or these beauties:
Urinating on detainees
Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
Sodomization of detainees with a baton
Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.

Not really in the traditions and customs of US treatment of prisoners is it?

youandme

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2007, 10:53:08 AM »
No this is torture american style: Photographs of dogs snarling at prisoners, of women being forced at gunpoint to expose their breasts, of hooded prisoners being forced to masturbate, and of forced homosexual acts were among those shown to members of Congress yesterday.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1215645,00.html

or these beauties:
Urinating on detainees
Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
Sodomization of detainees with a baton
Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.

Not really in the traditions and customs of US treatment of prisoners is it?


I've read alot of books on the militarism of America, but once you discover other countries "standards" of torture...gitmo looks like a resort.

I'm not saying it's alright, but I'm just pointing out, that this is war, and our troops would not even recieve 1/3 of the luxuries we grant those in US custody.

None of that even compares to a US soldier being torched alive, or a innocent Iraqi kid being tortured just for his family giving a US soldier a wave or a smile or accepting clean water and some crayons.



headhuntersix

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2007, 10:55:17 AM »
Congresswoman Ellen Tauscher, a member of the House of Representatives armed services committee who viewed some of the pictures, told the Guardian they were "not dramatically different" from those already published but said some of the pictures showed the aftermath of a dog attack on a prisoner.

While several Republican senators argued that the photographs were no more shocking than those already seen, Democrats such as Senator Joseph Lieberman argued that "it just deepens the conclusion that this was a cellblock that had gone wild, had no standards".

The sense of disgust was compounded yesterday by the airing of an American soldier's video diary on CBS's 60 Minutes. The video showed her talking about two Iraqi prisoners who died in custody at Abu Ghraib prison: "Who cares? That's two less for me to worry about."




So we have two stories..either way..I only care because the story was leaked and hurt American soldiers..no leak no problem, these people are scumbags.....
L

headhuntersix

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2007, 10:57:43 AM »
I've read alot of books on the militarism of America, but once you discover other countries "standards" of torture...gitmo looks like a resort.

I'm not saying it's alright, but I'm just pointing out, that this is war, and our troops would not even recieve 1/3 of the luxuries we grant those in US custody.

None of that even compares to a US soldier being torched alive, or a innocent Iraqi kid being tortured just for his family giving a US soldier a wave or a smile or accepting clean water and some crayons.


Right on....these guys we're fighting do horrible things, horrible things. We made these prisnoers feel bad, humiliated them. I'd rather be "humiliated" then drilled with a power drill or set on fire. We make manmids with our prisoners, they behead theirs.



L

Dos Equis

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2007, 10:58:07 AM »
No this is torture american style: Photographs of dogs snarling at prisoners, of women being forced at gunpoint to expose their breasts, of hooded prisoners being forced to masturbate, and of forced homosexual acts were among those shown to members of Congress yesterday.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1215645,00.html

or these beauties:
Urinating on detainees
Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
Sodomization of detainees with a baton
Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.

Not really in the traditions and customs of US treatment of prisoners is it?


You could also come up with a litany of instances of police brutality all across America.  Those involved in the incidents at Abu were punished.  And those incidents pale in comparison to the kinds of torture used by our friendly neighborhood terrorists.  

Hotel Guantanamo is a much better example of how America treats suspected terrorists.  

Dos Equis

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2007, 11:01:07 AM »
Congresswoman Ellen Tauscher, a member of the House of Representatives armed services committee who viewed some of the pictures, told the Guardian they were "not dramatically different" from those already published but said some of the pictures showed the aftermath of a dog attack on a prisoner.

While several Republican senators argued that the photographs were no more shocking than those already seen, Democrats such as Senator Joseph Lieberman argued that "it just deepens the conclusion that this was a cellblock that had gone wild, had no standards".

The sense of disgust was compounded yesterday by the airing of an American soldier's video diary on CBS's 60 Minutes. The video showed her talking about two Iraqi prisoners who died in custody at Abu Ghraib prison: "Who cares? That's two less for me to worry about."




So we have two stories..either way..I only care because the story was leaked and hurt American soldiers..no leak no problem, these people are scumbags.....


Right.  The offenders are in prison.  What those guys did was not part of our SOP. 

Decker

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2007, 11:02:17 AM »
You could also come up with a litany of instances of police brutality all across America.  Those involved in the incidents at Abu were punished.  And those incidents pale in comparison to the kinds of torture used by our friendly neighborhood terrorists.  

Hotel Guantanamo is a much better example of how America treats suspected terrorists.  
Sorry Beach Bum but when I see the hubris of your claim that US treatment of SUSPECTS is just dandy, we have to remind ourselves that we do torture people thanks the military commissions act.

Decker

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2007, 11:04:01 AM »
I've read alot of books on the militarism of America, but once you discover other countries "standards" of torture...gitmo looks like a resort.

I'm not saying it's alright, but I'm just pointing out, that this is war, and our troops would not even recieve 1/3 of the luxuries we grant those in US custody.

None of that even compares to a US soldier being torched alive, or a innocent Iraqi kid being tortured just for his family giving a US soldier a wave or a smile or accepting clean water and some crayons.
You are likely correct.  But we are the USA and we are better than any other country.  I don't care for degrees of relativism when quantifying US morality.

Dos Equis

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2007, 11:09:06 AM »
Sorry Beach Bum but when I see the hubris of your claim that US treatment of SUSPECTS is just dandy, we have to remind ourselves that we do torture people thanks the military commissions act.

Decker I just posted a story showing precisely how we treat suspected terrorists at Hotel Guantanamo.  Those fatties eat better than me.

Who has the American government tortured under the MCA? 

And don't forget this:  "President Bush signed an executive order Friday prohibiting cruel and inhuman treatment, including humiliation or denigration of religious beliefs, in the detention and interrogation of terrorism suspects."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/20/bush.terrorism.ap/index.html

youandme

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2007, 11:09:57 AM »
You are likely correct.  But we are the USA and we are better than any other country.  I don't care for degrees of relativism when quantifying US morality.

I agree with you! We hold ourselves in such a high standard, but what in the hell is going on with our morality. It topples from the top! Look at the sports situation today, would you want your kid idolizing any of these athletes, or white collar wizards today?

Then look at NASA, holy crap.

"Aim as low as you can so you won't be dissapointed" Homer Simpson

headhuntersix

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2007, 11:10:29 AM »
Decker these are horrible people who would love to kill and eat u...I understand your point but come on, they suck.
L

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2007, 03:36:22 PM »
I just need to understand one thing...  Beach, is there a valid reason you're just looking at what came out on Gitmo?  Do you not consider the torture that happened at the secret CIA prisons in other countries worth mention?  You want to put three hots and a cot down on the table and say see, it's all good ::)

Dos Equis

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2007, 04:25:49 PM »
I just need to understand one thing...  Beach, is there a valid reason you're just looking at what came out on Gitmo?  Do you not consider the torture that happened at the secret CIA prisons in other countries worth mention?  You want to put three hots and a cot down on the table and say see, it's all good ::)

I never said I was just looking at Hotel Guantanamo.  I'm using that resort as an example.  We need to put those fatties on an Atkins diet.  Who knew American torture could be so enjoyable?  They have more ready access to cardio equipment than I do. 

What needs to be mentioned about the alleged torture at a so-called secret CIA prison?  What about it?  And how is it secret if you're talking about it on a message board? 

Straw Man

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2007, 09:19:11 AM »
Maybe the people in Gitmo are fat because they are idle 23 hours a day and are being fed more calories than they are burning. 

That fact is not any kind of proof that they not also being tortured to say nothing of the fact that some of them may be totally innocent of anything.

headhuntersix

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2007, 09:54:27 AM »
Yeah and some of those innocents that we let out...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_23-10-2004_pg7_54

WASHINGTON: About 10 former detainees have rejoined the fight against US forces after being released from a US military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba in the belief they no longer posed a threat, Pentagon officials said on Friday.

Some have been recaptured, others reportedly killed and an unknown number remain at large, the officials said.

“From the beginning, we have recognized that there are inherent risks in determining when an individual detainee no longer had to be held at GTMO and that the assessment process is not risk free,” said Lieutenant Commander Alvin Plexico, using the military acronym for Guantanamo.

They include an Afghan teenager who was a minor at the time of his first capture in the wake of US-led offensive that toppled the Taliban regime, a Pentagon official said, asking not to be identified. He and two other minors captured in Afghanistan were separated from other inmates at Guantanamo and schooled in English and other subjects until their release in January.

But rather than reintegrate to Afghan society as US officials had hoped, he rejoined the Taliban.

“He was recaptured participating in an attack” near Kandahar, the official said. “At the time of his recapture he was carrying a letter confirming his status as a Taliban in good standing.”


Or this guy....http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/27/world/main2987393.shtml

) A man formerly held in the U.S. detention facility in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, was killed Wednesday in a shootout with security agents in a restive North Caucasus republic, Russia's top security agency said.

Ruslan Odizhev was killed amid gunfire that erupted when agents tried to arrest him and another man in Kabardino-Balkariya, a region near Chechnya that is plagued by violence linked both to crime and to religious tensions, the Federal Security Service said in a brief statement


 former Guantanamo Bay prisoner who took up arms alongside the Taliban after he was released from detention has blown himself up to avoid capture, Pakistani security forces said today.

Or this guy.....................

Abdullah Mehsud photographed in 2004

Abdullah Mehsud killed himself with a hand grenade after he was cornered by troops at a house in the south-western Pakistani town of Zhob. He was wanted for the kidnapping of two Chinese engineers in 2004.




Yup great guys..all innocent ........we're idiots and let em go ::)

"My information is that (he) killed himself," said Atta Mohammed, the head of the police in Zhob. "Thanks be to God that only he was blown up and our men were safe."

Mehsud, 32, was released from the US detention centre in Cuba after two years in 2004 but immediately went back to violence when the Pakistani government began an offensive against the Taliban in the troubled region along the border with Afghanistan.






L

headhuntersix

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2007, 09:56:11 AM »
What the hell are they feeding these guys..maybe Ho Ho's and Ding Dongs are torture......

L

24KT

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2007, 12:20:45 AM »
Not sure if there was a need to go around the Geneva Convention if it didn't apply to terrorists in the first place.  I'm not sure it does, which is why I asked the question.   

Military Commissions Act does not apply to U.S. citizens. 

Habeas doesn't apply to unlawful alien enemy combatants.  So what.  I'm in favor of less, not more, rights for foreign terrorists. 

 ::) We have been through this so many times before...

The Military Commissions Act DOES indeed apply to American citizens,
...and with the advent of the military Commissions Act, habeas doesn't apply to anyone any more.
w

24KT

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2007, 12:30:21 AM »
Wouldn't you agree that we'd be hard-pressed to find a candidate that satifies the moral foundation of all America? 

Plus, the older I get, the more I realize how much of a hypocrite I am.... though we might be at different levels of hypocriticism, you and I are no different than President Clinton, New Gingrich, or the like.


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Decker

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2007, 06:51:56 AM »
Decker I just posted a story showing precisely how we treat suspected terrorists at Hotel Guantanamo.  Those fatties eat better than me.

Who has the American government tortured under the MCA? 

And don't forget this:  "President Bush signed an executive order Friday prohibiting cruel and inhuman treatment, including humiliation or denigration of religious beliefs, in the detention and interrogation of terrorism suspects."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/20/bush.terrorism.ap/index.html
Which detainees haven't the American government tortured?

It seems to me that if the president goes to the trouble of having congress retroactively implement (unconstitutional) torture exceptions to the Geneva Conventions prohibition of torture, he would use that newfound power.

As for Bush's order re CIA torture, so what?  The CIA is not the military in charge of these suspects.  Everything the CIA does stays secret so we don't know what the hell they do.  I'm supposed to take solace in the fact that Bush is the 'check and balance' of the CIA interrogation techniques--the same man who sought to codify torture in the MCA of 2006?

Decker

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2007, 07:01:16 AM »
Decker these are horrible people who would love to kill and eat u...I understand your point but come on, they suck.
I think we'll have these disagreements b/c fundamentally, we are on different sides of how to handle the terrorist problem.

I think the Iraq invasion was a mistake.  I think it was illegal and that the invasion has been nothing short of a breeding ground for Anti-American sentiments around the world.

I think battling terrorism is better suited to police work and not military strikes.

I think that implementing torture of suspects eliminated the US's moral highground creating even more terrorists.

I know you've alluded to this answer but do you think that attacking Iraq was the best course of action for battling Al Qaeda?

Likewise, do you think that torturing (inflicting stress up until major organ failure) suspects is the best approach for getting information?

Dos Equis

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2007, 10:57:59 AM »
What the hell are they feeding these guys..maybe Ho Ho's and Ding Dongs are torture......



LOL.   :D

Dos Equis

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2007, 11:01:36 AM »
::) We have been through this so many times before...

The Military Commissions Act DOES indeed apply to American citizens,
...and with the advent of the military Commissions Act, habeas doesn't apply to anyone any more.

 ::) ::)

"(a) PURPOSE.--This chapter establishes procedures governing the use of military commissions to try alien unlawful enemy combatants . . . ."  948b. 

"The term 'alien' means a person who is not a citizen of the United States."  948a(3). 

"Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to trial by military commission under this chapter."  948c. 

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_bills&docid=f:s3930enr.txt.pdf

Dos Equis

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Re: Sad, But True!
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2007, 11:05:13 AM »
Which detainees haven't the American government tortured?

It seems to me that if the president goes to the trouble of having congress retroactively implement (unconstitutional) torture exceptions to the Geneva Conventions prohibition of torture, he would use that newfound power.

As for Bush's order re CIA torture, so what?  The CIA is not the military in charge of these suspects.  Everything the CIA does stays secret so we don't know what the hell they do.  I'm supposed to take solace in the fact that Bush is the 'check and balance' of the CIA interrogation techniques--the same man who sought to codify torture in the MCA of 2006?

Which detainees haven't been tortured??  All of those fatties on 4,000 calorie a day diets being fed specially prepared desserts and having access to cardio equipment. 

How many have been tortured under the Military Commissions Act passed on 17 Oct. 06?  I say zero.