In defense of the race card... (very long post)

[Hedgehog]

I find your choice of words interesting. When refering to low achieving Black people... you refer to them as Blacks.
When refering to low achieving White people... your refer to them as 'White trash'. Why the qualifyer?

Why not say "the reason Black trash doesn't..." along with "the reason white trash doesn't..."?
Why not say "the reason Black people don't..." along with "the reason white people don't..."?

I find it interesting that you can so easily compare the two. Why not compare apples with apples instead?

Making no accusations mind you, ...simply observing a subtle even if unintentioned connotation in your words.

Well, you're right. At least partly right.

Lets agree that the unsuccessful whites are a much smaller group percentagewise than the black ditto.

And lets also agree that culture, not race, is the reason for these differences.

Ie, most brought up in an intellectual and safe environment, will have a solid intellectual foundation once he/she reaches adulthood. And will be a respectful and decent person.



But you're also making a slight mistake in that you're not recognizing the obvious difference between the community and the white community.

What it all boils down to:

In general, there are some problems in the white community.

In general, there are a lot of problems in the black community.


Of course, one could also argue that there are bad, and there are good citizens in USA, regardless of the ethnicity. And then color of skin wouldn't be an aspect.

We could use trailer homing vs picket fences, as variables for bad citizens/good citizens, eg. Or regional differences.

But in this particular topic, we're discussing the ethnic differences, and how those affect society. And what to do.

This is a controversial topic, although for the first time, except for a few posts, I think this discussion has stayed fairly on-topic and has avoided the usual racist bullshit slurs.

Get it?

[Hedgehog]

It's not racism but a defense mechanism. The 'trash' connotation changes the degree to which middle class whites identify with lazy underperforming whites. Most wouldn't identify with blacks to any extent so the 'trash' qualifier isn't needed. It can also be used in a positive manner to identify with black people, e.g. "He's really bright!"

Good point.
I don't like to get too much off topic, but the same can be said for numerous things.

Like how some people (both black and white) thinks that black people somehow have "rhytm", can dance particularly well.

Or how black people can sing with "soul".

Hispanic people: "Hot tempered".

It's all bullshit.

Btw, you know what Chris Rock called those underperforming blacks.

[Al-Gebra]

do hundreds-probably thousands-of years of culturing create traits that are "essential" (so much part of a being that all the education in the world might not have an impact for generations to come)?

[Camel Jockey]

Poor white and others groups don't cause problems nearly at the rate or ghetto black and hispanics. I speak from experience through my uncle who was beaten and had his grocery store looted by guess who..  

[drkaje]

Poor white and others groups don't cause problems nearly at the rate or ghetto black and hispanics. I speak from experience through my uncle who was beaten and had his grocery store looted by guess who..  

Jews?

[24KT]

Well, you're right. At least partly right.

Lets agree that the unsuccessful whites are a much smaller group percentagewise than the black ditto.

And lets also agree that culture, not race, is the reason for these differences.

Ie, most brought up in an intellectual and safe environment, will have a solid intellectual foundation once he/she reaches adulthood. And will be a respectful and decent person.



But you're also making a slight mistake in that you're not recognizing the obvious difference between the community and the white community.

What it all boils down to:

In general, there are some problems in the white community.

In general, there are a lot of problems in the black community.


Of course, one could also argue that there are bad, and there are good citizens in USA, regardless of the ethnicity. And then color of skin wouldn't be an aspect.

We could use trailer homing vs picket fences, as variables for bad citizens/good citizens, eg. Or regional differences.

But in this particular topic, we're discussing the ethnic differences, and how those affect society. And what to do.

This is a controversial topic, although for the first time, except for a few posts, I think this discussion has stayed fairly on-topic and has avoided the usual racist bullshit slurs.

Get it?

I get everything you're saying, ...however I disagree on this. I don't believe we're discussing ethnic differences.
I think what is truly at the heart of this is cultural and socio-economic differences, and the subsequent fallout.
The fact that these differences can and quite often appear along race lines, especially in the USA, has nothing to do with race other than to the extent that tradition & legislation have impacted culture & socio-economics along racial lines.

[24KT]

do hundreds-probably thousands-of years of culturing create traits that are "essential" (so much part of a being that all the education in the world might not have an impact for generations to come)?

I think only to the extent that these are passed on from generation to generation through nurture, NOT nature.

[24KT]

Poor white and others groups don't cause problems nearly at the rate or ghetto black and hispanics. I speak from experience through my uncle who was beaten and had his grocery store looted by guess who..  

{LOL} Not to make light of your uncle's misfortune, ...but what do you expect when you are located in a ghetto with the majority being blacks and hispanics? you're going to see a higher percentage of crimes committed by blacks and hispanics. Move into a different social milieu, that is majority caucausian, ...you're again going to find the same thing... the majority of crimes will be committed by caucasians. Crime is crime, and it's underlying cause is not race.

Really CJ, ...you should move to a better neighbourhood. 

[drkaje]

{LOL} Not to make light of your uncle's misfortune, ...but what do you expect when you are located in a ghetto with the majority being blacks and hispanics? you're going to see a higher percentage of crimes committed by blacks and hispanics. Move into a different social milieu, that is majority caucausian, ...you're again going to find the same thing... the majority of crimes will be committed by caucasians. Crime is crime, and it's underlying cause is not race.

Really CJ, ...you should move to a better neighbourhood. 

Have you ever shopped at one of those neighborhood places? They can be a little pricey.

[Hedgehog]

I get everything you're saying, ...however I disagree on this. I don't believe we're discussing ethnic differences.
I think what is truly at the heart of this is cultural and socio-economic differences, and the subsequent fallout.
The fact that these differences can and quite often appear along race lines, especially in the USA, has nothing to do with race other than to the extent that tradition & legislation have impacted culture & socio-economics along racial lines.

I see now that I formulated myself wrong.

I meant to state that we're discussing the problems that are overrepresented in different ethnic groups, more specifically the Afro-American one, not differences of the ethnicities.

Meaning that the problems are not stemming from the ethnicity, but rather, as you point out as well, cultural and socio-economical differences.

Be that as it may, the problems with ghetto and thug mentality exists, and the public schooling isn't on par with the private schools.

Once public schools are equal to private schools, equal opportunities will be even an issue.

[Al-Gebra]

Be that as it may, the problems with ghetto and thug mentality exists, and the public schooling isn't on par with the private schools.

Once public schools are equal to private schools, equal opportunities will be even an issue.

not going to happen.  the elites have an interest in perpetuating america's highly stratified class system, and the private schools help them maintain their edge.  For $40,000/yr, they will train your kids to present themselves in a way that's attractive to the Harvards of the world.

The rest of America for some strange reason has decided that all Americans are middle class. It's practically impossible these days to find someone who will acknowledge being anything else.  So, they don't acknowledge that they're falling behind, and do not vote in people that will allocate money to education . . . b/c the local public is already "good enough." 

[Camel Jockey]

{LOL} Not to make light of your uncle's misfortune, ...but what do you expect when you are located in a ghetto with the majority being blacks and hispanics? you're going to see a higher percentage of crimes committed by blacks and hispanics. Move into a different social milieu, that is majority caucausian, ...you're again going to find the same thing... the majority of crimes will be committed by caucasians. Crime is crime, and it's underlying cause is not race.

Really CJ, ...you should move to a better neighbourhood. 

I'd rate parts of jamaica, queens as middle class. You walk past jamaica avenue and you are in the ghetto. I live above hillside towards st. johns university where it's middle to upper middleclass. I go to park my brother's car because of tuesday morning road cleaning and there's some piece of shit asking me if I have a quarter, or I'm waiting for the subway there's some asswipe preaching on the platform. You cannot get away, whether you are on park avenue or where I live.. Just the other day, some black guy asked me for a light and I said I didn't have one, and he got all bitchy and then he started saying random stuff I couldn't understand.. I blew my fuse and told him to fuck off.

Move into a different social milieu, that is majority caucausian, ...you're again going to find the same thing... the majority of crimes will be committed by caucasians. Crime is crime, and it's underlying cause is not race.

Was in Florida for a year and I didn't feel threatened like I do now when I'm on the street. Read my e-lips, the majority of racism I've faced = from black and hispanic folks.


And aren't more than half of the crimes in the US commited by black people? Don't they make up about 10% of the population? Bad justice system or not, that number is high. Let's just say the margin of error for convicting blacks is 5%, they'd still have higher rates of incarcerations than any other group.

And Jag, daddy doesn't approve of you telling me to move.

[24KT]

not going to happen.  the elites have an interest in perpetuating america's highly stratified class system, and the private schools help them maintain their edge.  For $40,000/yr, they will train your kids to present themselves in a way that's attractive to the Harvards of the world.

The rest of America for some strange reason has decided that all Americans are middle class. It's practically impossible these days to find someone who will acknowledge being anything else.  So, they don't acknowledge that they're falling behind, and do not vote in people that will allocate money to education . . . b/c the local public is already "good enough." 

In 1000% total agreement with you here.

[24KT]

And Jag, daddy doesn't approve of you telling me to move.

I once told someone that I'd never even consider calling you a child, ...I take it back. Grow up! CHILD!

[Al-Gebra]

In 1000% total agreement with you here.

don't agree w me. ever. it makes me feel like a bad person.

[24KT]

don't agree w me. ever. it makes me feel like a bad person.

...you are a bad person. 

[drkaje]

not going to happen.  the elites have an interest in perpetuating america's highly stratified class system, and the private schools help them maintain their edge.  For $40,000/yr, they will train your kids to present themselves in a way that's attractive to the Harvards of the world.

The rest of America for some strange reason has decided that all Americans are middle class. It's practically impossible these days to find someone who will acknowledge being anything else.  So, they don't acknowledge that they're falling behind, and do not vote in people that will allocate money to education . . . b/c the local public is already "good enough." 

Why does everyone thing they're middle class? Incomes aren't keeping up with the cost of living so the media has artificially lowered what income is considered middle class. Without doing that.. people would consume less.  Middle class used to be sneaking on 50-70K/year. Now... people making half that are called middle class and using debt/credit/inheritance/parents to make up the difference.

[Camel Jockey]

I once told someone that I'd never even consider calling you a child, ...I take it back. Grow up! CHILD!

It was a joke.  I think you're a good poster. Probably my favorite female poster along with CQ.

[Al-Gebra]

It was a joke.  I think you're a good poster. Probably my favorite female poster along with CQ.

did you just fall and hit your head?

[Camel Jockey]

did you just fall and hit your head?

I don't agree with her, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't amused.