In defense of the race card... (very long post)

[Al Doggity]

well, most elite schools have affirmative action programs that cast a long shadow on black achievement.

as prominent legal scholar Lino graglia noted, "if you go by IQ, blacks are not underrepresented at elite institutions, they are OVERrepresented."

Blacks do need assistance, but it should begin w pre-schoolers . . . b/c a handout to an adult will always be seen as a handout. if you help children, on the other hand . . .

And the rub here is that iq is not used as the sole determining admissions factor for demographics other than black, either.  Legacy preference is just as pervasive, if not moreso, than any ethnic-based preference systems at some universities. Harvard accepts nearly half of all legacies and acceptance rates are similar at a lot of top schools.

So where affirmative action may create artificial diversity, there are other practices that maintain an artificial status quo completely irrespective of merit.

[Al-Gebra]

yes, legacies need to go too . . . meritocracy all the way.

[Camel Jockey]

yes, legacies need to go too . . . meritocracy all the way.

Yes because the kid of some rich guy who gave loads to the school is just as bad as Terrel "the thug" Biggoms.  j/k 

A good study below.. Affirmative action has adverse effects on asians applying to university. Epic trying to help two groups at the expense of others. 

http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/tje/espenshadessqptii.pdf

[Al-Gebra]

Yes because the kid of some rich guy who gave loads to the school is just as bad as Terrel "the thug" Biggoms.  j/k 

A good study below.. Affirmative action has adverse effects on asians applying to university. Epic trying to help two groups at the expense of others. 

http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/tje/espenshadessqptii.pdf

where I went to school you got points even if your dad gave no money to the school.

[Camel Jockey]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

[24KT]

colored people hold themselves down. this is abundantly clear growing up in new york city. one of the first things that jumps out is that black children who attempt to become educated are referred to as "uncle tom's and sell outs" by the black community.

how the fvck can black children aspire to become successful in that environment?

drkj must live on another planet........come to nyc and see how colored people HOLD THEMSELVES DOWN. no help is needed by any other race.....they do nicely on their own.

wake up to reality "dr".   

The same can be said of Caucasians growing up in the hills of kentucky. Ever seen some of those throwbacks?
The point being, while there are underachievers in all races, not all Blacks take their cues from the ghettos of NYC, just as not all whites take their cues from Ozark mountain dwellers.

[24KT]

Explain something to me.

If I put it this way: The US budget is usually around $2 trillion dollars.

So how could Israel, a much smaller country, receive trillions of dollars annually from USA?

There are private institutions to which Americans pay money. Institutions that are not federal in nature, ...but bear the name 'Federal'. ...and that's all I'm going to say on the issue. Criticizing the USA is one thing, ...criticizing institutions that own the USA (unbeknownst to her citizens) is quite another kettle of fish that I do not care to discuss publicly.

[Camel Jockey]

Jag, daddy called. 

[Dos Equis]

Yes.  That's exactly what I'm saying.




National unity is not built by sub-dividing ourselves into seperate subcultures, then battling to try to get a "leg up" on everyone not a member of our particular group. 

People in this country should be viewed as individuals first, then as Americans, but never as "groups".

I tend to think American culture includes the many ethnic groups who maintain some semblance of their ethnicity.  I don't raise my kids that way (we are Americans first and foremost), but different groups in our country have always celebrated their culture. 

[24KT]

Jag, daddy called. 

If you have a decent argument, ...make it. Otherwise stfu.
Please and thank you.

[Al Doggity]

A good study below.. Affirmative action has adverse effects on asians applying to university. Epic trying to help two groups at the expense of others. 

http://opr.princeton.edu/faculty/tje/espenshadessqptii.pdf

I'm glad you brought this up.

Now I can post some stuff about the concepts behind affirmative action.


Affirmative action is largely based on a social science known as network theory that analyzes how people live.

One thing that social network theorists have known for a long time is that having parents that attended college is probably the single most important factor in predicting if a student will attend college and how well they will do.

Just google "first generation college students" you will find a whole slew of studies. You will also see that there are outreach programs that go beyond race.



Now, this is the main reason Asians and Indians aren't covered by affirmative action considerations:

There is this myth that Asians come to this country poor and wind up making it through an unparalleled work ethic. The truth is that, due to strict immigration policies, the Asian population in America is highly self selected. Most are at least middle class when they arrive and a good percentage already possess secondary education. There are asian subsets that do come here poor and those groups, by and large, remain poor.

Here are some quotes from one study found here:

http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=5457&SnID=2

Klineberg revealed that nearly 40 percent of Asian respondents said their fathers had been doctors, lawyers, corporate managers or other professionals, compared to about 30 percent of Anglos, 20 percent of Blacks, and 15 percent of Hispanics.

The occupational profiles of the Asian respondents and their fathers suggest little or no upward social mobility. For example, 44 percent of the Indians and Pakistanis in Houston are in professional or managerial positions, but so were 47 percent of their fathers. Among the Vietnamese, 28 percent are in low-skilled production or laboring jobs as were 30 percent of their fathers.

There are tons of studies like this. Generally, people across all ethnic demographics remain in the same economic bracket as their parents. There are exceptions, but percentage wise, my previous sentence remains the norm.
No ethnic group has had as many institutionalized obstacles to overcome as blacks.The same socio-economic picture would probably evident in any other group with the same history. 

[youandme]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

LOL, BOOOOOOOOOOOOM !

This must be the Diners Club card.

[drkaje]

yes, the root cause is feeling entitled and expecting a handout from "whitey."

reparations anyone?

"Whitey" cannot undo the damage. We have to take responsibility and fix the problems.

What good (other than shutting up nitwits) would reparations do? They wouldn't address the underlying issues one bit. Besides.... during the first 48 hours of Iraq war I they spent enough money to give every American Citizen 100K. The cost of reparations isn't really an issue at all.

[Camel Jockey]

I'm glad you brought this up.

Now I can post some stuff about the concepts behind affirmative action.


Affirmative action is largely based on a social science known as network theory that analyzes how people live.

One thing that social network theorists have known for a long time is that having parents that attended college is probably the single most important factor in predicting if a student will attend college and how well they will do.

Just google "first generation college students" you will find a whole slew of studies. You will also see that there are outreach programs that go beyond race.



Now, this is the main reason Asians and Indians aren't covered by affirmative action considerations:

There is this myth that Asians come to this country poor and wind up making it through an unparalleled work ethic. The truth is that, due to strict immigration policies, the Asian population in America is highly self selected. Most are at least middle class when they arrive and a good percentage already possess secondary education. There are asian subsets that do come here poor and those groups, by and large, remain poor.

Here are some quotes from one study found here:

http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=5457&SnID=2


There are tons of studies like this. Generally, people across all ethnic demographics remain in the same economic bracket as their parents. There are exceptions, but percentage wise, my previous sentence remains the norm.
No ethnic group has had as many institutionalized obstacles to overcome as blacks.The same socio-economic picture would probably evident in any other group with the same history. 

I don't think asians or anyone should recieve preference or anything of that nature. I want affirmative action to be gone.

[Camel Jockey]

There is this myth that Asians come to this country poor and wind up making it through an unparalleled work ethic. The truth is that, due to strict immigration policies, the Asian population in America is highly self selected. Most are at least middle class when they arrive and a good percentage already possess secondary education. There are asian subsets that do come here poor and those groups, by and large, remain poor.

That's a bit of a guess, don't you think? I mean if what you are saying is true, then some stats for asians will go from being skewed to being normal within the next 20 years or so, when immigrant kids will have grown up. We'll see then.

And of course immigrants that generally come to the states were above average in their respective homelands. Still, they come here somewhat poor and work their way up. You said that you were in NY, so tell me, you've never met people like this? People that came from somewhat of a poor background even though they were this and that in their country? I've met hundreds.

And how do you explain the difference in crime rates?

As for affirmative action. I can understand people making cases for black people and native americans, but hispanics? It seems like they're getting away with whatever they'd like in this country. Waltzing in through the borders free, yet still claiming racism. Making ordinary Americans adapt to their customs instead of the other way around. You talked about selective immigration policies, so you must see the danger of letting mexicans march in free and catering to them. These people coming in were the lowest of the low in their respective homelands.. Can't tell me cheap labor is worth all that.

You have to admit that there's certain "benefits" extend to blacks and hispanics at the expense of other demographics. This is true, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people bitching about it.

[drkaje]

i'll assume "we" refers to  afro-americans?

Yes.

[Al Doggity]

That's a bit of a guess, don't you think? I mean if what you are saying is true, then some stats for asians will go from being skewed to being normal within the next 20 years or so, when immigrant kids will have grown up. We'll see then.

And of course immigrants that generally come to the states were above average in their respective homelands. Still, they come here somewhat poor and work their way up. You said that you were in NY, so tell me, you've never met people like this? People that came from somewhat of a poor background even though they were this and that in their country? I've met hundreds.

And how do you explain the difference in crime rates?

No. The newer immigrants are poorer and less educated. It's already apparent that the former generation of south east asian immigrants is not going to repeat its success.

Here are a few sites with more info:
http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/south_asians.htm

  For these later immigrants the picture is one of declining relative skills and economic performance.  Among immigrants from India in the late 1980s, for example, only 20% had more than a high school education and 9 percent were unemployed.  There are far fewer professionals than in earlier waves.

Most of this cohort end up with dead end jobs—running cheap motels, small neighborhood stores, marginal gas stations, or taxi-driving.

Another study:
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/MN/more.php?id=331_0_2_0

More than 30 percent of the Southeast Asians in the US--versus eight percent of all American residents-- are on welfare, the highest rate of welfare participation of any ethnic group. The seven million Asians in the US are three percent of the US population.

[Al-Gebra]

If you have a decent argument, ...make it. Otherwise stfu.
Please and thank you.

never having a decent argument hasn't ever stopped you . . .  

[Al Doggity]

some more stats:
http://sampan.org/show_article.php?display=975&PHPSESSID=9d767f4a70da92e

"Many tend to think that Asians only face poverty when they are new immigrants -- that people are poor when they first come here, and then they work themselves up," said Liu. "But if you look at our attempt to correlate income with their tenure in the U.S., that's not true."

The report reveals that many Asian Americans are poor in every age group, sometimes no matter how long they've lived in the U.S.

For example, middle-aged Cambodians, when compared with everyone else in the same age group, are more than three times as likely to be poor. Chinese Americans ages 65 to 74 are nearly twice as likely as all other same-aged senior citizens to be low-income earners.

Another finding in the study that Liu said wasn't expected was that Vietnamese Americans who are naturalized citizens appear to be more economically successful than U.S.-born Vietnamese Americans, though the numbers of poor Vietnamese are still overall high.

[Al Doggity]

In regards to the lower crime rates. The biggest factor in determining whether someone goes to jail is their socio-economic status. Crime rates are low among first born immigrants, but invariably jump dramatically among poor, second generation immigrants. From a study:

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=403

Incarceration rates increase significantly for all US-born coethnics without exception. That is most notable for Mexicans, whose incarceration rate increases more than eightfold to 5.9 percent among the US born; for Vietnamese (from 0.46 to 5.6 percent among the US born); and for the Laotians and Cambodians (from 0.92 percent to 7.26 percent, the highest of any group except for native blacks).

Bear in mind, that the Asian community in America is so small that trends are statistical trends are often easy to ignore.

[Al Doggity]

I don't think asians or anyone should recieve preference or anything of that nature. I want affirmative action to be gone.

The previous generation of Asians is one of the best arguments FOR affirmative action in the workplace. Despite joining the work force with more years of schooling, as a group they earn less the the national median income. It just puts the lie to the myth of  a merit based society.

[Camel Jockey]

If you have a decent argument, ...make it. Otherwise stfu.
Please and thank you.

daddy doesn't approve of rudeness.

[Camel Jockey]

never having a decent argument hasn't ever stopped you . . .  

daddy will get the crew on me if I don't stfu

[muscleforlife]

If you have a decent argument, ...make it. Otherwise stfu.
Please and thank you.

LOL,

I always like reading your posts Jag.  Even the one liners.

Sandra

[muscleforlife]

The largest growing minority class in my hood is East Indian/Pakistani.

Hard working, bringing wealth with them.  The high school has just added hindi to the curriculum.

Some people don't realize the systematic conditioning that America has had on the pysche of it's people.

Otherwise wealthy folk should know how to behave better.

Michael Vick shouldn't have people involved with illegal dog fighting.
Brittney spears shouldn't be allowed to have children to neglect.

on Vick, the verdict is still out.  Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

Brittney, well...she has committed no crime.....Unless Kev federline has custody of the children and you don't because of your actions....that should be criminal.

It all begins in the home.
Sandra