In defense of the race card... (very long post)

[Hedgehog]

Why do you even have to have an "african american culture"?

Why not just be part of American culture like everyone else who has been here for multiple generations? 


It is your insistance on being a seperate "culture" that is holding you back.

I can't understand that. What's with all these "LaQueeda", "Lashanda", "Antawn" et al?

And Big L, Li'l D, Frizzy F, and lord knows what else?

It's just strange.

The same goes for the white thrash, and those hillbilly inbreeds who love NASCAR and make out with their sister.

It's just embarrassing.

[drkaje]

the good "doctor" must have roots to the negro community. 

The villagers must miss you dearly.

[headhuntersix]

I got on this one late.........Comparing the holocaust to slavery, being that Blacks have had how many years to get on with it? The holocaust happened 60 plus years ago. Historicallly speaking, pretty short. In that time they have rebuilt wealth, settled a homeland, fought several wars, and ensured that it will never happen again. Blacks have been butchering themselves in Africa, wholesale,  since the Europeans pulled out of Africa. They complain about everything in this country. Everybody is out to get them. With the Jews, Everybody is out to get them, and they have done pretty well. I really don't think you can compare the two groups. But everybody wants to.

Somebody brought up Morgan Freeman. I see an American going about his business, more of him as a roll model and less pimp/ho rap subculture bs and we wouldn't need the race card. Folks like Sharpton/Jackson and the NAACP do more harm for race relations then any good their organizations could do for black Americans.

[drkaje]

hh6,

Morgan Freeman must be really, really..... really glad to fit your ideal of what a back man should be.

[Dos Equis]

Why do you even have to have an "african american culture"?

Why not just be part of American culture like everyone else who has been here for multiple generations? 


It is your insistance on being a seperate "culture" that is holding you back.

What do you make of the Japanese Chamber of Commerce, Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, Chinese Cultural Center, etc., etc.?  We probably have about 50 organizations like that in Hawaii. 

[Dos Equis]

I got on this one late.........Comparing the holocaust to slavery, being that Blacks have had how many years to get on with it? The holocaust happened 60 plus years ago. Historicallly speaking, pretty short. In that time they have rebuilt wealth, settled a homeland, fought several wars, and ensured that it will never happen again. Blacks have been butchering themselves in Africa, wholesale,  since the Europeans pulled out of Africa. They complain about everything in this country. Everybody is out to get them. With the Jews, Everybody is out to get them, and they have done pretty well. I really don't think you can compare the two groups. But everybody wants to.

Somebody brought up Morgan Freeman. I see an American going about his business, more of him as a roll model and less pimp/ho rap subculture bs and we wouldn't need the race card. Folks like Sharpton/Jackson and the NAACP do more harm for race relations then any good their organizations could do for black Americans.

Headhunter I view it a little differently.  Slavery officially ended in the 1800s, but it was essentially recodified (the "Black Codes") and lasted through the 1960s.  It wasn't until Brown v. Board (desegregation of schools), the Voting Rights Act, the 64 Civil Rights Act, etc. that we got most of that stuff off the books.  There were other things like racially restrictive covenants (precluding certain racial groups from buying in the neighborhood), insurance redlining (refusing to insure entire communities based on race), etc.  We are one generation removed from that stuff.  Talk to people who lived through the civil rights movement.  I have.  It wasn't that long ago. 

I'm not saying anyone can use this as an excuse to commit crime, underachieve, etc., but we are talking about a very recent past when it comes to legalized race discrimination. 

[G o a t b o y]

What do you make of the Japanese Chamber of Commerce, Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, Chinese Cultural Center, etc., etc.?  We probably have about 50 organizations like that in Hawaii. 

When was the last time you ever heard of a chinese or japanese pulling the race card?  See, those people aren't constantly fuccking up and then trying to blame it all on "whitey". 

[Dos Equis]

When was the last time you ever heard of a chinese or japanese pulling the race card?  See, those people aren't constantly fuccking up and then trying to blame it all on "whitey". 

I don't see the majority of any group playing the race card. 

I was asking about these comments:

Why do you even have to have an "african american culture"?

Why not just be part of American culture like everyone else who has been here for multiple generations? 


It is your insistance on being a seperate "culture" that is holding you back.

Many ethnic groups celebrate and advance their "culture."  Are you saying all ethnic groups in this country should stop doing this? 

[24KT]

I got on this one late.........Comparing the holocaust to slavery, being that Blacks have had how many years to get on with it? The holocaust happened 60 plus years ago. Historicallly speaking, pretty short. In that time they have rebuilt wealth, settled a homeland, fought several wars, and ensured that it will never happen again.

You're absolutely right HH, you're a day late and more than a few dollars short. It doesn't compare in the least.

Here's a partial list as to why:

• Jewish holocaust survivors had the ability to hide in plain sight, an ability the vast majority of African holocaust survivors did not have.
• Many Jewish holocaust survivors had the ability to keep their wealth intact, finding ingenious ways to hide it, and keep themselves fairly liquid. African holocaust survivors did not.
• Because the Jewish holocaust took place over a relatively short period of time (6 yrs vs. 600 yrs) many survivors were able to keep their culture and traditions in tact. African holocaust survivors did not. 600 yrs of subjugation does not dissappear overnight.
• Jewish holocaust survivors (Israel) were given land, and they receive trillions of dollars in direct aid annually from the USA, African holocaust survivors are still waiting for their 40 acres and a mule.

Blacks have been butchering themselves in Africa, wholesale,  since the Europeans pulled out of Africa.

What you lump into one group and refer to as 'Blacks', are in reality different countries, irrespective of the race of it's inhabitants. It does not differ from wars we've seen between USA & England, England & Argentina, England & Ireland, France & England, USA & Spain, Germany & Poland, Germany and the rest of Europe... etc., etc., etc.,  Or even the war of 1812 when someone got their ass whooped real hard. I won't even mention the US civil war and the butchery there wherein brother fought against brother (often times quite literally more than figuratively) The difference is you at least afford the participants of those wars the benefit of distinction based upon nationality, and or political ideology. Wars in Africa you seem to want to distinguish by race, rather than nations, or even by their root causes... almost as if the root cause of the unrest is the actual race of the participants themselves. It reveals much about your mindset. You are the one playing the race card in this argument, ...but it's a very feeble, inadequate, and ineffective attempt to do so, ...unless you're speaking to those with a KKK mentality. Thinking people know better. Theorizing about people of colour evidently is not your strong suit. Maybe you should stick to what you know best... butchering them instead.

If you have any other brainfarts stupid assinine theories you care to espouse,
...I'd be more than happy to disabuse you of those delusions as well. Just say the word.
 

I really don't think you can compare the two groups. But everybody wants to.

I knew sooner or later we'd find some common ground.  

[G o a t b o y]

 Many ethnic groups celebrate and advance their "culture."  Are you saying all ethnic groups in this country should stop doing this? 

Yes.  That's exactly what I'm saying.




National unity is not built by sub-dividing ourselves into seperate subcultures, then battling to try to get a "leg up" on everyone not a member of our particular group. 

People in this country should be viewed as individuals first, then as Americans, but never as "groups".

[Al-Gebra]

Y

• Because the Jewish holocaust took place over a relatively short period of time (6 yrs vs. 600 yrs) many survivors were able to keep their culture and traditions in tact. African holocaust survivors did not. 600 yrs of subjugation does not dissappear overnight.

[/size]

• Jewish holocaust survivors (Israel) were given land, and they receive trillions of dollars in direct aid annually from the USA, African holocaust survivors are still waiting for their 40 acres and a mule.

[/size]

trillions of dollars in aid annually . . . i'm sure someone well-educated and smart like would know the size of our ENTIRE ANNUAL BUDGET . . .   

six years of hatred for jews . . . compared to SIX HUNDRED YEARS for africans . . . i'm sure someone well-educated and smart like you would realize that various groups of people have been trying to exterminate the Jews for thousands of years . . . 

i'm sure these are harmless typos you've made . . .


you're not the kind to go around spewing venomous bullshit, are you?

[24KT]

trillions of dollars in aid annually . . . i'm sure someone well-educated and smart like would know the size of our ENTIRE ANNUAL BUDGET . . .   

I guess you are not aware of contributions that fail to go on the books.

six years of hatred for jews . . . compared to SIX HUNDRED YEARS for africans . . . i'm sure someone well-educated and smart like you would realize that various groups of people have been trying to exterminate the Jews for thousands of years . . .

i'm sure these are harmless typos you've made . . .

I've made no typo's despite how cleverly you attempt to rephrase or spin my statements.
As a descendant of Jews myself... I am aware of certain issues that relate to the 13th lost tribe of Israel.

you're not the kind to go around spewing venomous bullshit, are you?

No that appears to be more your specialty.

[Al-Gebra]

I guess you are not aware of contributions that fail to go on the books.

I've made no typo's despite how cleverly you attempt to rephrase or spin my statements.
As a descendant of Jews myself... I am aware of certain issues that relate to the 13th lost tribe of Israel.

No that appears to be more your specialty.

since you no longer have facts at your disposal, you take recourse in fairy-tales. how surprising.

"fail to go on the books" "descendant of Jews" "13th lost tribe of ISrael"

monster convincing.

ROFLMAO

[24KT]

since you no longer have facts at your disposal, you take recourse in fairy-tales. how surprising.

"fail to go on the books" "descendant of Jews" "13th lost tribe of ISrael"

monster convincing.

ROFLMAO

If the references go over your head, it's not surprising.

*{plonk}*

[Al-Gebra]

If the references go over your head, it's not surprising.

*{plonk}*

how about you tell us about "off the books" substantiation of the existence of leprechauns next . . . btw, aren't the yetis part of the 13th lost tribe of israel?

 

[Hedgehog]

Yes.  That's exactly what I'm saying.




National unity is not built by sub-dividing ourselves into seperate subcultures, then battling to try to get a "leg up" on everyone not a member of our particular group. 

People in this country should be viewed as individuals first, then as Americans, but never as "groups".

Great post.

I for one think it's ridiculous when Americans refers to themselves as "Chinese", "Italians", "Norwegians", or as in a recent case , "Swedes".

The first time I saw personal ads in the US, I thought it was a joke, what's up with this "single WHITE female"? Horrible.

Be proud to be an American I say.

[Hedgehog]

I guess you are not aware of contributions that fail to go on the books.

I've made no typo's despite how cleverly you attempt to rephrase or spin my statements.
As a descendant of Jews myself... I am aware of certain issues that relate to the 13th lost tribe of Israel.

No that appears to be more your specialty.

Explain something to me.

If I put it this way: The US budget is usually around $2 trillion dollars.

So how could Israel, a much smaller country, receive trillions of dollars annually from USA?

[drkaje]

colored people hold themselves down. this is abundantly clear growing up in new york city. one of the first things that jumps out is that black children who attempt to become educated are referred to as "uncle tom's and sell outs" by the black community.

True

how the fvck can black children aspire to become successful in that environment?

A lot of hard work. The journey from the hood to a Doctorate is longer because the resistance is internal and external.

drkj must live on another planet........come to nyc and see how colored people HOLD THEMSELVES DOWN. no help is needed by any other race.....they do nicely on their own.

Upstate doesn't have any blacks. 

wake up to reality "dr".   

All those statements are true to some extent. That lack of cultural identity/place is a direct result of slavery. Blacks, as a people will eventully make more progress and even have a real middle class some day but it's going to take a lot of time.

[drkaje]

add justice c. thomas to that list.

Let me get this straight, LOL! You guys can name 4 or 5 high profile successful blacks who aren't entertainers or in sports and honestly can't see that there is a problem? The black community definately doesn't have the appreciation of education compared to immigrants and that's got to be fixed. In a lot of cases there is a deep resentment held towards educated black people..... on both sides.

These problems have to be addressed within the black community itself or a majority of us are fucked. Also, a lot of people are just plain ignorant.. so unless Snoop Dogg or JayZ start rapping about school the message will never get out.

[The Squadfather]

 

[G o a t b o y]

Blacks, as a people will eventully make more progress and even have a real middle class some day

Some day?

I know many middle-class blacks now.  The "black community" views them negatively and call them "oreos".   

And the middle class blacks, the smart ones at least, want nothing to do with the majority "black community" and their gangsta-wanna-be's.  Like everyone else, they think they're just a bunch of stupid niggers.

[drkaje]

i'm happy to see you finally agree with the facts.

on the whole, blacks hold themselves down.

case in point.....ask most blacks if they lookup to colin powell or condi rice.....the answer is NO. they are perceived to be SELLOUTS.

Don't get too giddy, LOL!

We aren't debating the facts, per se. It's the root cause of the 'facts' which is at debate here. My argument is that the cultural infrastructure of blacks was erased during slavery and these problems are symptoms. It is going to take black people a long time to catch up. I routinely did health fairs and volunteer work... a lot of the kids have never seen a black doctor who wasn't an actor on some show. One black "dr" doesn't really amount to a hill of beans against those odds.

Whatever soloutions occur, they will come well after priorities within the community/culture (as a whole) change. Rice, Powell, Thomas, etc... are so far from the typical street black person's frame of reference that they may as well be from Mars. I would never presume any comparison between myself and other Americans, like them, who have accomplished that level of achievement. That being said, people from the old neighborhood have a difficult time relating to me in this current context.

Some day?

I know many middle-class blacks now.  The "black community" views them negatively and call them "oreos".   

And the middle class blacks, the smart ones at least, want nothing to do with the majority "black community" and their gangsta-wanna-be's.  Like everyone else, they think they're just a bunch of stupid niggers.

I specifically mean enough buying power to dictate advertisment changes. Not that there aren't blacks who make lower six figures.

My personal definition of the word "black" is an ignorant person. I'm fairly liberal with the term and have not restricted its use to black people for fear of being called a racist.

[headhuntersix]

Jag....i was comparing the holocaust, a relatively recent historical event to Blacks and the constant whining by some in the Black community. I don't owe them a damm thing. America doesn't owe them a thing. We owe them the same as everybody else. A good education, beyond that its what u make of it. If we need to channel more energy into making that happen then so be it. It will make a stronger America if we have more educated people. All the whining pisses all other groups off. Alot of minority races have come to this country recently and have made a success stoy out of themselves. Its time for the black community to tell Jackson and Sharpton to shut the hell up. Education  is the key, drop the hip hop culture crap.

Ever been to a death camp u idiot...hiding in plain site? The Germans did a pretty good job of finding and murdering 6 million. Further, drop the KKk thing. Anytime anybody has an opinion about blacks, besides blacks, its racist. If a black says the same about a white, we have to take it? Bullshit, get over yourself, I look at the average black person no different then other Americans.

[Al Doggity]

Some day?

I know many middle-class blacks now.  The "black community" views them negatively and call them "oreos".   

And the middle class blacks, the smart ones at least, want nothing to do with the majority "black community" and their gangsta-wanna-be's.  Like everyone else, they think they're just a bunch of stupid niggers.

When Condoleeza Rice and  Clarence Thomas are criticized by people in the black community it has more to do with their POLITICS and ideologies than the fact that they are successful. Whites from opposing parties are not above criticizing each other. Many republicans stooped to attacking  the "American-ness" of democrats, post 9-11 if the President was questioned. The situation involving Condi and Clarence is no different.



An overwhelming majority of blacks are democrats. Smart, successful black democrats- even "the good, clean ones" that white people like - are admired in the community.

Cases in point- people like Corey Booker and Barrack Obama.

Barrack, the middle-class, Harvard educated lawyer, has a wide base of support from the black community ( and just to point out that blacks are not necessarily voting by the race card, Hilary's support is actually a little higher.)


Then there's Corey Booker, the Yale educated, middle class mayor of the mostly black city of Newark. He has a favorable Q rating among blacks from across the nation. After a failed mayoral run a few years ago, Booker secured the mayoral seat during the last election with more than 70% of the vote.

These are just a few examples: You've got guys like Harold Ford, H. Carl McCall, "clean cut" politicians who enjoy alot of support from both whites and blacks . Oprah is one of the most successful PEOPLE ever, whose empire goes well beyond entertainment, and despite what 50 Cents says, I dare you to find a young black woman who does not idolize her.


You can probably find online examples of any of these folks being called "Uncle Toms" or sellouts, but that's just anecdotal. There's always gonna be ig'nant fools. I can probably find a good many examples of them being called "####" or worse by whites.

I say all of this to say that I don't agree with your assertion that there is a backlash against upwardly mobile blacks from the majority of the black community. I'm sure you know what you know and there's no way for me tell you what you know, but my experiences with blacks have been a lot different than yours.

[Al-Gebra]

When Condoleeza Rice and  Clarence Thomas are criticized by people in the black community it has more to do with their POLITICS and ideologies than the fact that they are successful. Whites from opposing parties are not above criticizing each other. Many republicans stooped to attacking  the "American-ness" of democrats, post 9-11 if the President was questioned. The situation involving Condi and Clarence is no different.



An overwhelming majority of blacks are democrats. Smart, successful black democrats- even "the good, clean ones" that white people like - are admired in the community.

Cases in point- people like Corey Booker and Barrack Obama.

Barrack, the middle-class, Harvard educated lawyer, has a wide base of support from the black community ( and just to point out that blacks are not necessarily voting by the race card, Hilary's support is actually a little higher.)


Then there's Corey Booker, the Yale educated, middle class mayor of the mostly black city of Newark. He has a favorable Q rating among blacks from across the nation. After a failed mayoral run a few years ago, Booker secured the mayoral seat during the last election with more than 70% of the vote.

These are just a few examples: You've got guys like Harold Ford, H. Carl McCall, "clean cut" politicians who enjoy alot of support from both whites and blacks . Oprah is one of the most successful PEOPLE ever, whose empire goes well beyond entertainment, and despite what 50 Cents says, I dare you to find a young black woman who does not idolize her.


You can probably find online examples of any of these folks being called "Uncle Toms" or sellouts, but that's just anecdotal. There's always gonna be ig'nant fools. I can probably find a good many examples of them being called "####" or worse by whites.

I say all of this to say that I don't agree with your assertion that there is a backlash against upwardly mobile blacks from the majority of the black community. I'm sure you know what you know and there's no way for me tell you what you know, but my experiences with blacks have been a lot different than yours.

well, most elite schools have affirmative action programs that cast a long shadow on black achievement.

as prominent legal scholar Lino graglia noted, "if you go by IQ, blacks are not underrepresented at elite institutions, they are OVERrepresented."

Blacks do need assistance, but it should begin w pre-schoolers . . . b/c a handout to an adult will always be seen as a handout. if you help children, on the other hand . . .