Author Topic: Attitudes Toward the Bible  (Read 35068 times)

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #175 on: August 23, 2007, 10:56:11 AM »
But the above are characteristics of mankind, aren't they?


OzmO, do you believe any part of the bible is true?  If so, what criteria do you use to determine what you deem as acceptable as truth?

True in what sense Stella?  give me an example?   Like for example do i believe an entire nation was evil and that God ordered the death of it including it's children?   NO WAY.   That's history written by the victors. 

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #176 on: August 23, 2007, 11:18:14 AM »
THE TRUTH about The Amalekites

The Amalekites were nomadic, desert people.  They were not a settled people like the Canaanites.
 
The Amalekites attacked the Israelites without apparent provocation as they were travelling during the Exodus:
 
Exodus 17:8
The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim.
 
The Amalekites targeted the weak and weary, children, elders, cripples, etc., who were lagging behind:
 
Deuteronomy 25:17-18
Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God.
 
Many years later, The Amalekites attacked Israel again:
 
Judges 3:13
Getting the Ammonites and Amalekites to join him, Eglon came and attacked Israel, and they took possession of the City of Palms
 
The Amalekites often raided the Israelites' land after they had planted crops, leaving them with nothing:
 
Judges 6:2-5
2 Because the power of Midian was so oppressive, the Israelites prepared shelters for themselves in mountain clefts, caves and strongholds. 3 Whenever the Israelites planted their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country. 4 They camped on the land and ruined the crops all the way to Gaza and did not spare a living thing for Israel, neither sheep nor cattle nor donkeys. 5 They came up with their livestock and their tents like swarms of locusts. It was impossible to count the men and their camels; they invaded the land to ravage it.
 
After about 300 years of nations suffering in the hands of the Amalekites, God finally punished the Amalekites.  Notice that God had given them plenty of time to repent and turn from their evil ways.  Notice too that for 300 years, younger generations of the Amalekites were no better than their fathers, but their wickedness only increased and they continued to raid and plunder other cities.
 
1 Samuel 15:2
This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
 
1 Samuel 14:48
He fought valiantly and defeated the Amalekites, delivering Israel from the hands of those who had plundered them.
 
Although Saul defeated the Amalekites, he disobayed God and, in his own wisdom, decided to let some of the Amalekites live.  What were the consequences?  Some 30 or so years later, the Amalekites regrouped, multiplied, increased in numbers and wickedness, and resumed their raiding and plundering, again. 
 
The Amalekites burned down cities, raided other people in the land, and took survivors as slaves for slave trade:

 
1 Samuel 30:1-4
1 David and his men reached Ziklag on the third day. Now the Amalekites had raided the Negev and Ziklag. They had attacked Ziklag and burned it, 2 and had taken captive the women and all who were in it, both young and old. They killed none of them, but carried them off as they went on their way.  3 When David and his men came to Ziklag, they found it destroyed by fire and their wives and sons and daughters taken captive. 4 So David and his men wept aloud until they had no strength left to weep.
 
Saul should have listened to God and obeyed Him.  This is what happens when we think that we know better than God.
 
It is very unlikely that the Amalekites had among them any weak people(handicapped, elderly, chronically ill, deformed, crippled, weak males, etc.), much like the Spartans.  They could not afford to be slowed down by the weak.  They had room only for those who could directly or indirectly contribute to their plundering, such as women to produce children who would be raised to become evil raiders like their parents.  Their history is evidence of this.
 
1 Samuel 30:11-13
11 They found an Egyptian in a field and brought him to David. They gave him water to drink and food to eat- 12 part of a cake of pressed figs and two cakes of raisins. He ate and was revived, for he had not eaten any food or drunk any water for three days and three nights.  13 David asked him, "To whom do you belong, and where do you come from?" He said, "I am an Egyptian, the slave of an Amalekite. My master abandoned me when I became ill three days ago.
 
God gave the Amalekites plenty of time to repent and turn from their evil ways.  But not only did God withhold punishing the Amalekites for many years, but God's law also allowed for any good Amalekites, if any existed, and their children to leave their people and join Israel.  As evil as the Amalekites were, any good people among them would have been more than willing to leave.  But where would they go?  The Amalekites' allies were just as evil, and the Amalekites' enemies would not have welcomed them, except Israel.  
 
Leviticus 19:34
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
 
Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.
 
Exodus 23:9
"Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.
 
Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.
 
Leviticus 25:35
" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.
 
Deuteronomy 10:18
He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing.
 
Deuteronomy 14:28-29
 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
 
Deuteronomy 23:7
Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country.
 
That's history written by the victors. 

No, this is not history written by the victors.  Israel did not leave what they considered their own criminal acts out of their own writings.  Anyone who has read the Old Testament history and prophetic writings could see this.  The Old Testament record is literally filled with their evil, especially of the elites and religious authorities!   And, they never seem to have a problem describing how frequently they get defeated in battle, for their texts are filled with their defeats too.

If this is not from God, then who is it from?  Why would Israel make up a story that God told them not to take anything from the Amalikites, no gold, no animals, no food, no prisoner salves, nothing.  If Israel was not allowed to take anything, even after the Amalekites had taken so much from Israel, what was Israel's motivation then?  That does not make any sense.

Why would Israel make up a story that God commanded them to completely destroy the Amalekites, and then disobey God's command and let some of the Amalekites go, as king Saul did?  That doesn't make any sense either.

The only explanation is that this was from God.  God gave the Amalekites plenty of time to repent.  God gave any good Amalekite a way out by leaving their people and taking refuge in Israel.  Israel was unable to adopt the Amalekite children and did not leave them behind to die a slow, painful death.  The blood of the Amalekite children is on the head of their parents, not on Israel and not on God.

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #177 on: August 23, 2007, 11:47:36 AM »
wow,  all verses from the Bible imagine that..... ::)


And the fact that it is written as scripture tells me it's even more tainted.



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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #178 on: August 23, 2007, 11:56:44 AM »
True in what sense Stella?  give me an example?   

1.  For instance, do you believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross? 

2.  Or that Judas betrayed Him?  

3.  Do you believe that "An anxious heart weighs a man down, but a kind word cheers him up?

4.  Do you believe that "A gossip separates close friends?"

For the things you believe to be true, how do you come to that determination?



Actually, on the first group of laws I'd get rid of is non-victimize crimes.  drug use & prostitution. 

OzmO, do you truly believe that prostitution is a victimless crime?
R

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #179 on: August 23, 2007, 12:14:32 PM »
1.  For instance, do you believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross? 

2.  Or that Judas betrayed Him?   

3.  Do you believe that "An anxious heart weighs a man down, but a kind word cheers him up?

4.  Do you believe that "A gossip separates close friends?"

For the things you believe to be true, how do you come to that determination?



OzmO, do you truly believe that prostitution is a victimless crime?

1.  yes, i believe it.

2.  don't know. 

3.  I believe emotions are not always influenced by words but are usually influence by actions.

4.  I believe gossip can separate close friends

5.  yes

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #180 on: August 23, 2007, 12:32:21 PM »
wow,  all verses from the Bible imagine that..... ::)


And the fact that it is written as scripture tells me it's even more tainted.



You are entitled to your opinion, OzmO!     ;D

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #181 on: August 23, 2007, 12:40:20 PM »
You are entitled to your opinion, OzmO!     ;D

As we are all.   ;),

I was however hoping you could come up with something other than the Bible to prove that 100% of a nation was evil.

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #182 on: August 23, 2007, 01:06:29 PM »
As we are all.   ;),

I was however hoping you could come up with something other than the Bible to prove that 100% of a nation was evil.

Other than the Bible?  You have changed your argument then.  We were not discussing what can or cannot be proved, in or outside of the Bible.   For that matter, you could just say that the Amalikites never existed, therefore Israel never killed any of them.

It seems to me from your arguments that you were under the impression the Amalikites were a peaceful people who got raided by Israel.  And this gave you a reason to argue that the Bible is not the word of God.  I challenged you to read the whole story and you didn't, so I posted it for you.  Israel took nothing from them, so this was not your typical tribal dispute.  Plus, Israel was required by law to take as their own any "good" Amalikite who might want to leave their own, evil people.  Though it is not recorded in the Bible, who is to say that some Amalikites did leave their people and joined Israel, and intermarried with the Israelites? 

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #183 on: August 23, 2007, 01:14:00 PM »
Other than the Bible?  You have changed your argument then.  We were not discussing what can or cannot be proved, in or outside of the Bible.   For that matter, you could just say that the Amalikites never existed, therefore Israel never killed any of them.

It seems to me from your arguments that you were under the impression the Amalikites were a peaceful people who got raided by Israel.  And this gave you a reason to argue that the Bible is not the word of God.  I challenged you to read the whole story and you didn't, so I posted it for you.  Israel took nothing from them, so this was not your typical tribal dispute.  Plus, Israel was required by law to take as their own any "good" Amalikite who might want to leave their own, evil people.  Though it is not recorded in the Bible, who is to say that some Amalikites did leave their people and joined Israel, and intermarried with the Israelites? 

You are assuming quite a lot loco.   Why do you keep doing that? When have i ever said the Amalikites where a peaceful people or even hinted at it?

Maybe you should re-read my arguments.

I simply have stated many times that any nation of peoples is not 100% evil and that the label of being 100% was written by the ones who slaughtered them as justification for doing so.  Have you not used that as justification for God's order of the slaughtering of everyone n that nation including the children?

loco, there's no getting around it no matter how hard you try.  The bible is like swiss cheese in this matter.

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #184 on: August 23, 2007, 01:23:10 PM »
The Midianites were oppressive and hostile to the Israelites.  They were often raiding Israel with the use of swift camels.
 

Yeah, the Philistines, an evil and oppressive people.  And their foreskins were chopped off by David's army, not on order of God, but on order of King Saul, a king God rejected.

The "prank" was played by Isaac's mother.  Isaac's older brother is the one who sold his birth right for a bowl of beans.

God did not command Israel to destroy every nation in the promised land.  God commanded Israel to destroy only certain nations that were evil, involved in human sacrifice, or were oppressive toward Israel upon Israel's arrival or they were oppressive toward surrounding nations.

Funny how people here are bothered that God destroyed these evil and oppressive nations.  Yet, had God not destroyed those nations, people then would be complaining that God is not just for allowing these nations to continue to exist.

Deuteronomy 9:4
After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.

Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

Wow!  Great post!  Brings it all into perspective.  Thanks!

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #185 on: August 23, 2007, 02:50:01 PM »
You are assuming quite a lot loco.   Why do you keep doing that? When have i ever said the Amalikites where a peaceful people or even hinted at it?

Maybe you should re-read my arguments.

I simply have stated many times that any nation of peoples is not 100% evil and that the label of being 100% was written by the ones who slaughtered them as justification for doing so.  Have you not used that as justification for God's order of the slaughtering of everyone n that nation including the children?

loco, there's no getting around it no matter how hard you try.  The bible is like swiss cheese in this matter.

What?  Who labeled who "100%" what?  What are you talking about?  From the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, we know that God does not destroy a wicked people if He can find even 10 righteous people within them.  And from that same story, we know that God will somehow provide a way out for those good people and their children if they are fewer than 10, and if they choose to leave.  It is their choice, and if they choose to stay, their children's blood is on their own hands then.

From the story of Jonah, we know that God will forgive an entire wicked nation, no matter how wicked they are, if they repent.

So obviously, if there were any Amalekites who were not evil, they were very few. Otherwise God would not have called for their extermination.  And the few that were good, if any existed, they most likely took their children and left their evil people before God punished their wickedness.

I have given you who they were and what they  did, over a period of about 300 year.  You are the one getting around the issue, defending the bad guy, accusing the good guy.  Defending abortions, because of "legal issues".  You believe that it is murder, yet you believe that it should be legal.  Your idea of what is moral and good is what looks like swiss cheese.  You have a lot of soul searching to do, OzmO.  But I'm glad that we are having these discussions.

As overcome said, put in a similar situation, would you have left the children behind to die a slow, painful death?

You said you would not have killed all of them.  Well, king Saul didn't either.  And those children grew up to be as evil as their fathers and years later raided and burnt down cities and took women and children captive for slave trading.

OzmO, we can beat this dead horse all you want.  But you are only expressing an opinion based on what you think is right.  King Saul did what he thought was right in his own eyes, and look how many people paid for his mistake.

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #186 on: August 23, 2007, 02:57:27 PM »
Wow!  Great post!  Brings it all into perspective.  Thanks!

Thanks, swv8199!

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #187 on: August 23, 2007, 03:33:03 PM »
What?  Who labeled who "100%" what?  What are you talking about?  From the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, we know that God does not destroy a wicked people if He can find even 10 righteous people within them.  And from that same story, we know that God will somehow provide a way out for those good people and their children if they are fewer than 10, and if they choose to leave.  It is their choice, and if they choose to stay, their children's blood is on their own hands then.


Why do you keep switching the story around?   Weren't we just talking about the Amalekites?

I also refute that fewer than 10 people in Soddom that were not evil.

Quote
From the story of Jonah, we know that God will forgive an entire wicked nation, no matter h

ow wicked they are, if they repent.

More inconsistency

Quote
So obviously, if there were any Amalekites who were not evil, they were very few. Otherwise God would not have called for their extermination.  And the few that were good, if any existed, they most likely took their children and left their evil people before God punished their wickedness.

More assumption.

Quote
I have given you who they were and what they  did, over a period of about 300 year.  You are the one getting around the issue, defending the bad guy, accusing the good guy. 

And the one who ordered the death of a nation of children you are calling good?   ::)  :o :o :o ::) ::) ::)  No wonder the Bible has been the catalyst of soo much suffering through out history.  there you go again loco.

Quote
Defending abortions, because of "legal issues".  You believe that it is murder, yet you believe that it should be legal.  Your idea of what is moral and good is what looks like swiss cheese.

Again you fail to read and comprehend.   Show me where i support abortion. And if my idea of morals look like swiss CHEESE tell that to the three year boy who watched his mother get de-bowled by a copper sword and then gets a spear rammed in his gut becuase "god" ordered him.   ::) ::) ::)

You have been grasping for straws most of this whole debate switching from one thing to another becuase you HAVE TO ACCEPT THE FACT the god you follow MURDERS CHILDREN.


Quote
You have a lot of soul searching to do, OzmO.

We all have soul searching to do, loco, that's what part of living is about.  But instead, you follow a murderer of children.  Open your eyes loco. 

Quote
As overcome said, put in a similar situation, would you have left the children behind to die a slow, painful death?

You said you would not have killed all of them.  Well, king Saul didn't either.  And those children grew up to be as evil as their fathers and years later raided and burnt down cities and took women and children captive for slave trading.

Is it better to try and fail or not try at all?  Sorry i will not murder children becuase i am unwilling to try.  Obviously you are so blind you'll just do what allegedly God told thus Jews and stick a spear into a child wouldn't you?

Quote
OzmO, we can beat this dead horse all you want.  But you are only expressing an opinion based on what you think is right.  King Saul did what he thought was right in his own eyes, and look how many people paid for his mistake.

When you can explain to me how  killing children is right and something JESUS would do in those situations then i will concede that it was my opinion.

Until then, the facts remain:

THE GOD IN TH OT ORDERED INNOCENT CHILDREN TO BE KILLED.


loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #188 on: August 23, 2007, 03:58:02 PM »
loco, you keep applying  the 2, the law and a person's moral compass.  When those things are separate from each other.  People are going to do what ever it is they are going to do, the law doesn't always stop especially in the area of abortion.

So why have any laws then?  Why not just let people do whatever they want and let them answer to God later and be punished in the afterlife? 

If you believe abortion is murder, and that people should not be punished for it by law, then why punish people who murder a grown person?

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #189 on: August 23, 2007, 04:19:16 PM »
So why have any laws then?


More black and white thinking eh loco?

Is every violation of the law punished? 

Does the law know of every person who violates it?

Why do we have laws?

We have laws to govern a society and bring order. 

Not all laws are good. 

Legal abortion is not good. 

Making abortion illegal isn't good either. 

But for a society  legal abortion is better than illegal abortion.

But you know, when is the last time we have had the opportunity as a society to change that law?  We only have the opportunity  individually not to abort and to live our lives as we see fit and that counts more in the end.

Again, from Sodom to abortion................ .the fact remains, God ordered the death of innocent children.


loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #190 on: August 23, 2007, 04:31:37 PM »

More black and white thinking eh loco?

Is every violation of the law punished? 

Does the law know of every person who violates it?

Why do we have laws?

We have laws to govern a society and bring order. 

Not all laws are good. 

Legal abortion is not good. 

Making abortion illegal isn't good either. 

But for a society  legal abortion is better than illegal abortion.

But you know, when is the last time we have had the opportunity as a society to change that law?  We only have the opportunity  individually not to abort and to live our lives as we see fit and that counts more in the end.

Again, from Sodom to abortion................ .the fact remains, God ordered the death of innocent children.



 ::)

Millions of unborn babies are murdered in your own country, in your own time, while you sit on your butt, behind a keyboard arguing about the killing of babies in ancient times, by a people who lived in ancient times.  You believe abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice.  That's supporting abortion, OzmO, there is no getting around it.  You don't care because none of these unborn babies are your own. 

Go pro-life and speak out for the rights of unborn babies in your country, then we'll continue to discuss the killing of Amalekite babies thousands of years ago.   ;)

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #191 on: August 23, 2007, 04:52:31 PM »
::)

Millions of unborn babies are murdered in your own country, in your own time, while you sit on your butt, behind a keyboard arguing about the killing of babies in ancient times, by a people who lived in ancient times.  You believe abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice.  That's supporting abortion, OzmO, there is no getting around it.  You don't care because none of these unborn babies are your own. 

Go pro-life and speak out for the rights of unborn babies in your country, then we'll continue to discuss the killing of Amalekite babies thousands of years ago.   ;)

omg  lol,

So in defense of GOD ORDERING THE DEATH OF CHILDREN we have come down to you not wanting to debater any longer (as if you had much to stand on) becuase I am pro-choice?   ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

When you can come to grips with the CHILD MURDERING GOD you support in the OT perhaps you'll live and talk in reality.

As for more of reality:

Will making abortion illegal stop abortions?  Wake up loco!

Making abortions illegal will do 2 things:  continue the death of unborn babies and increase the deaths of pregnant mothers. 

Wake up loco!

columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #192 on: August 23, 2007, 04:54:19 PM »
Loco, if you had a daughter and she got raped and became pregnant, would you want her to keep it or to abort?

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #193 on: August 23, 2007, 04:58:48 PM »
I should add, loco:


If you can debate the point without switching or deflecting your arguments would carry more weight. 

But then again how can you argue murdering children unless you are a blind thoughtless follower.


Is this part where you go:  "I'm not going to debate with you further until you start acting like an adult.?"

Remember, you're sitting on "your butt" on a computer also.   ;D

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #194 on: August 23, 2007, 04:59:48 PM »
Will making abortion illegal stop abortions?  Wake up loco!

No, but it's not about that.  You believe that abortion is murder.   It's about punishing those who commit murder.  It's about defending the defenceless.  It's about standing up for what's right.

Must we stop punishing murderers and legalize murder in general just because the law hasn't stopped people from commiting murder?

Must we stop punishing rape because the law has not stopped people from committing rape?

Must we stop punishing child molestation just because the law has not stopped people from molesting children?

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #195 on: August 23, 2007, 05:01:09 PM »
No, but it's not about that.  You believe that abortion is murder.   It's about punishing those who commit murder.  It's about defending the defenceless.  It's about standing up for what's right.

Must we stop punishing murderers and legalize murder in general just because the law hasn't stopped people from commiting murder?

Must we stop punishing rape because the law has not stopped people from committing rape?

Must we stop punishing child molestation just because the law has not stopped people from molesting children?

Then your GOD in the OT should burn in hell then shouldn't he?   


loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #196 on: August 23, 2007, 05:01:40 PM »
Is this part where you go:  "I'm not going to debate with you further until you start acting like an adult.?"

Nah, you've been behaving like an adult today.  And I apreciate that!   ;D  

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #197 on: August 23, 2007, 05:02:46 PM »
You should scroll up and answer the many questions I've asked that you have choose to ignore but instead switch subjects.

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #198 on: August 23, 2007, 05:04:06 PM »
You should scroll up and answer the many questions I've asked that you have choose to ignore but instead switch subjects.

Really?  I was waiting for you to answer all the questions that overcome and I had asked you.

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #199 on: August 23, 2007, 05:04:40 PM »
Then your GOD in the OT should burn in hell then shouldn't he?   




Whatever.    :-\