Author Topic: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?  (Read 1282 times)

pumpster

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Weapons Given to Iraq Are Missing
GAO Estimates 30% of Arms Are Unaccounted For


Washington Post
Monday, August 6, 2007

The Pentagon has lost track of about 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols given to Iraqi security forces in 2004 and 2005, according to a new government report, raising fears that some of those weapons have fallen into the hands of insurgents fighting U.S. forces in Iraq.

The author of the report from the Government Accountability Office says U.S. military officials do not know what happened to 30 percent of the weapons the United States distributed to Iraqi forces from 2004 through early this year as part of an effort to train and equip the troops. The highest previous estimate of unaccounted-for weapons was 14,000, in a report issued last year by the inspector general for Iraq reconstruction.

The United States has spent $19.2 billion trying to develop Iraqi security forces since 2003, the GAO said, including at least $2.8 billion to buy and deliver equipment. But the GAO said weapons distribution was haphazard and rushed and failed to follow established procedures, particularly from 2004 to 2005, when security training was led by Gen. David H. Petraeus, who now commands all U.S. forces in Iraq.

The Pentagon did not dispute the GAO findings, saying it has launched its own investigation and indicating it is working to improve tracking. Although controls have been tightened since 2005, the inability of the United States to track weapons with tools such as serial numbers makes it nearly impossible for the U.S. military to know whether it is battling an enemy equipped by American taxpayers.

"They really have no idea where they are," said Rachel Stohl, a senior analyst at the Center for Defense Information who has studied small-arms trade and received Pentagon briefings on the issue. "It likely means that the United States is unintentionally providing weapons to bad actors."

One senior Pentagon official acknowledged that some of the weapons probably are being used against U.S. forces. He cited the Iraqi brigade created at Fallujah that quickly dissolved in September 2004 and turned its weapons against the Americans.

Stohl said insurgents frequently use small-arms fire to force military convoys to move in a particular direction -- often toward roadside bombs. She noted that the Bush administration frequently complains that Iran and Syria are supplying insurgents but has paid little attention to whether U.S. military errors inadvertently play a role. "We know there is seepage and very little is being done to address the problem," she said.

Stohl noted that U.S. forces, focused on a fruitless search for weapons of mass destruction after Baghdad fell, did not secure massive weapons caches. The failure to track small arms given to Iraqi forces repeats that pattern of neglect, she added.

The GAO is studying the financing and weapons sources of insurgent groups, but that report will not be made public. "All of that information is classified," said Joseph A. Christoff, the GAO's director of international affairs and trade.

In an unusual move, the train-and-equip program for Iraqi forces is being managed by the Pentagon. Normally, the traditional security assistance programs are operated by the State Department, the GAO reported. The Defense Department said this change permitted greater flexibility, but as of last month it was unable to tell the GAO what accountability procedures, if any, apply to arms distributed to Iraqi forces, the report said.

Iraqi security forces were virtually nonexistent in early 2004, and in June of that year Petraeus was brought in to build them up. No central record of distributed equipment was kept for a year and a half, until December 2005, and even now the records are on a spreadsheet that requires three computer screens lined up side by side to view a single row, Christoff said.

The GAO found that the military was consistently unable to collect supporting documents to "confirm when the equipment was received, the quantities of equipment delivered, and the Iraqi units receiving the equipment." The agency also said there were "numerous mistakes due to incorrect manual entries" in the records that were maintained.

The GAO reached the estimate of 190,000 missing arms -- 110,000 AK-47s and 80,000 pistols -- by comparing the property records of the Multi-National Security Transition Command for Iraq against records Petraeus maintained of the arms and equipment he had ordered. Petraeus's figures were compared with classified data and other records to ensure that they were accurate enough to compare against the property books.

In all cases, the gaps between the two records were enormous. Petraeus reported that about 185,000 AK-47 rifles, 170,000 pistols, 215,000 pieces of body armor and 140,000 helmets were issued to Iraqi security forces from June 2004 through September 2005. But the property books contained records for 75,000 AK-47 rifles, 90,000 pistols, 80,000 pieces of body armor and 25,000 helmets.

A military commander involved in the program at the time, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the report, acknowledged in an e-mail, "We did issue some items, including weapons, body armor, etc. to new Iraqi units that were literally going into battle."

But, the commander argued, "there was, frankly, not much of a choice early on: We had very little staff and could have held the weapons until every piece of the logistical and property accountability system was in place, or we could issue them, in bulk on some occasions, to the U.S. elements supporting Iraqi units who were needed in the battles of Najaf, Fallujah, Mosul, Samarra, etc."

The GAO plans to look for similar problems in the training of Afghan security forces.

During the Bosnian conflict, the United States provided about $100 million in defense equipment to the Bosnian Federation Army, and the GAO found no problems in accounting for those weapons.

Much of the equipment provided to Iraqi troops, including the AK-47s, originates from countries in the former Soviet bloc. In a report last year, Amnesty International said that in 2004 and 2005 more than 350,000 AK-47 rifles and similar weapons were taken out of Bosnia and Serbia, for use in Iraq, by private contractors working for the Pentagon and with the approval of NATO and European security forces in Bosnia.

headhuntersix

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2007, 06:39:49 AM »
Its chaos over there. It was chaos after we took Bagdad. They were taking bags of money off of planes and given it to Iraqi's . There was no good way to get them the weapons like we issue them to our soldiers. It does not surprise me.
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Al Doggity

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2007, 07:13:12 AM »
I heard this on the radio this morning while I was getting ready for work. I had a rush of thoughts about how this plays into other foreign policy practices, but what can you do roll your eyes and sigh?


 ::) [sigh]

rockyfortune

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2007, 07:16:01 AM »
i thought it was getting better over there?
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headhuntersix

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2007, 07:33:45 AM »
This is standard chaos, not people are shooting and killing us chaos. Units were rolling into the fight, we had their equipment and instead of hand receipting or signing the stuff over, we were just handing it out or shipping it out. So we have no idea where the crap is now. I suspect we're getting the bullets back. we also did this with money after we took over. Cash to everybody without so much as an IOU on the back on a napkin. It was a neccesity, but again it was a half measure. One segment was in a hurry to to keep essential services running, a good thing, while another decided to disband the Army and Police.  Thus defeating the purpose of handing out cash. There won't be services if the services go up in a cloud of smoke or their being stolen.
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OzmO

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2007, 08:29:38 AM »
None of that is surprising at all.   The Iraq government is surely corrupt at all levels and invoices firearms is probably at the low end of the priority list

headhuntersix

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2007, 09:01:04 AM »
But we take weapons pretty seriously and they're not weapons where the folks have to come back to us to get rounds and parts....aks are all over the place. Even so we had no choice.
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Camel Jockey

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2007, 01:30:46 PM »
Horrible mismanagement..


24KT

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2007, 04:40:43 AM »
Why should Iraq be any different than the rest of the world? At least they're being consistent.
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bmacsys

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2007, 05:27:13 AM »
Why should Iraq be any different than the rest of the world? At least they're being consistent.


You are a pathetic excuse for  human being. Can't deal with your sorry existence so you build yourself up bashing everything American? You like to take American's money with your scams? Why don't you do something useful like get married and have kids instead of being a useless old maid troll.
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bmacsys

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2007, 05:29:58 AM »
Weapons Given to Iraq Are Missing
GAO Estimates 30% of Arms Are Unaccounted For


Washington Post
Monday, August 6, 2007

The Pentagon has lost track of about 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols given to Iraqi security forces in 2004 and 2005, according to a new government report, raising fears that some of those weapons have fallen into the hands of insurgents fighting U.S. forces in Iraq.

The author of the report from the Government Accountability Office says U.S. military officials do not know what happened to 30 percent of the weapons the United States distributed to Iraqi forces from 2004 through early this year as part of an effort to train and equip the troops. The highest previous estimate of unaccounted-for weapons was 14,000, in a report issued last year by the inspector general for Iraq reconstruction.

The United States has spent $19.2 billion trying to develop Iraqi security forces since 2003, the GAO said, including at least $2.8 billion to buy and deliver equipment. But the GAO said weapons distribution was haphazard and rushed and failed to follow established procedures, particularly from 2004 to 2005, when security training was led by Gen. David H. Petraeus, who now commands all U.S. forces in Iraq.

The Pentagon did not dispute the GAO findings, saying it has launched its own investigation and indicating it is working to improve tracking. Although controls have been tightened since 2005, the inability of the United States to track weapons with tools such as serial numbers makes it nearly impossible for the U.S. military to know whether it is battling an enemy equipped by American taxpayers.

"They really have no idea where they are," said Rachel Stohl, a senior analyst at the Center for Defense Information who has studied small-arms trade and received Pentagon briefings on the issue. "It likely means that the United States is unintentionally providing weapons to bad actors."

One senior Pentagon official acknowledged that some of the weapons probably are being used against U.S. forces. He cited the Iraqi brigade created at Fallujah that quickly dissolved in September 2004 and turned its weapons against the Americans.

Stohl said insurgents frequently use small-arms fire to force military convoys to move in a particular direction -- often toward roadside bombs. She noted that the Bush administration frequently complains that Iran and Syria are supplying insurgents but has paid little attention to whether U.S. military errors inadvertently play a role. "We know there is seepage and very little is being done to address the problem," she said.

Stohl noted that U.S. forces, focused on a fruitless search for weapons of mass destruction after Baghdad fell, did not secure massive weapons caches. The failure to track small arms given to Iraqi forces repeats that pattern of neglect, she added.

The GAO is studying the financing and weapons sources of insurgent groups, but that report will not be made public. "All of that information is classified," said Joseph A. Christoff, the GAO's director of international affairs and trade.

In an unusual move, the train-and-equip program for Iraqi forces is being managed by the Pentagon. Normally, the traditional security assistance programs are operated by the State Department, the GAO reported. The Defense Department said this change permitted greater flexibility, but as of last month it was unable to tell the GAO what accountability procedures, if any, apply to arms distributed to Iraqi forces, the report said.

Iraqi security forces were virtually nonexistent in early 2004, and in June of that year Petraeus was brought in to build them up. No central record of distributed equipment was kept for a year and a half, until December 2005, and even now the records are on a spreadsheet that requires three computer screens lined up side by side to view a single row, Christoff said.

The GAO found that the military was consistently unable to collect supporting documents to "confirm when the equipment was received, the quantities of equipment delivered, and the Iraqi units receiving the equipment." The agency also said there were "numerous mistakes due to incorrect manual entries" in the records that were maintained.

The GAO reached the estimate of 190,000 missing arms -- 110,000 AK-47s and 80,000 pistols -- by comparing the property records of the Multi-National Security Transition Command for Iraq against records Petraeus maintained of the arms and equipment he had ordered. Petraeus's figures were compared with classified data and other records to ensure that they were accurate enough to compare against the property books.

In all cases, the gaps between the two records were enormous. Petraeus reported that about 185,000 AK-47 rifles, 170,000 pistols, 215,000 pieces of body armor and 140,000 helmets were issued to Iraqi security forces from June 2004 through September 2005. But the property books contained records for 75,000 AK-47 rifles, 90,000 pistols, 80,000 pieces of body armor and 25,000 helmets.

A military commander involved in the program at the time, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the report, acknowledged in an e-mail, "We did issue some items, including weapons, body armor, etc. to new Iraqi units that were literally going into battle."

But, the commander argued, "there was, frankly, not much of a choice early on: We had very little staff and could have held the weapons until every piece of the logistical and property accountability system was in place, or we could issue them, in bulk on some occasions, to the U.S. elements supporting Iraqi units who were needed in the battles of Najaf, Fallujah, Mosul, Samarra, etc."

The GAO plans to look for similar problems in the training of Afghan security forces.

During the Bosnian conflict, the United States provided about $100 million in defense equipment to the Bosnian Federation Army, and the GAO found no problems in accounting for those weapons.

Much of the equipment provided to Iraqi troops, including the AK-47s, originates from countries in the former Soviet bloc. In a report last year, Amnesty International said that in 2004 and 2005 more than 350,000 AK-47 rifles and similar weapons were taken out of Bosnia and Serbia, for use in Iraq, by private contractors working for the Pentagon and with the approval of NATO and European security forces in Bosnia.


Pumpster, one question. Why do you have to title your thread this way? You are a Canadian living in America but always look to get digs in about the place you choose to live. Why do you live here and not Canada if America is "so dumb"? Is somebody twisting your arm to live here? Please answer that for us.
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bmacsys

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2007, 05:33:04 AM »
"Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?" You title your thread this way. Then do a copy and paste and then don't even add a comment of your own? Why not? That is usually called "trolling". At least elaborate if you post an article and do an inflammatory title. This is what Jag and you do all the time. Its being a troll plain and simple.
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dizzleman06

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2007, 08:25:23 AM »
Pumpster, one question. Why do you have to title your thread this way? You are a Canadian living in America but always look to get digs in about the place you choose to live. Why do you live here and not Canada if America is "so dumb"? Is somebody twisting your arm to live here? Please answer that for us.

he lives here because the taxes are too high Canada don't ya know... ;D

24KT

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Re: Why do Americans allow themselves to look like idiots in Iraq?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2007, 11:17:35 PM »
You are a pathetic excuse for  human being. Can't deal with your sorry existence so you build yourself up bashing everything American? You like to take American's money with your scams? Why don't you do something useful like get married and have kids instead of being a useless old maid troll.

pssst: I thought we had wiped the slate clean & started from scratch? What happened?
Was the temptation to take a swing at me too great... you just couldn't help yourself?

btw - how is your lovely wife? Did you ever get her quad across the border?

ps - Useless old maid troll?!?!  ...that's not what you said to me in PM.  ;D
w