Author Topic: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?  (Read 1481 times)

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/06/washington/06nsa.html?ei=5065&en=4e05f95a4b60ac78&ex=1187064000&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

August 6, 2007
Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping
By JAMES RISEN

WASHINGTON, Aug. 5 — President Bush signed into law on Sunday legislation that broadly expanded the government’s authority to eavesdrop on the international telephone calls and e-mail messages of American citizens without warrants.

Congressional aides and others familiar with the details of the law said that its impact went far beyond the small fixes that administration officials had said were needed to gather information about foreign terrorists. They said seemingly subtle changes in legislative language would sharply alter the legal limits on the government’s ability to monitor millions of phone calls and e-mail messages going in and out of the United States.

They also said that the new law for the first time provided a legal framework for much of the surveillance without warrants that was being conducted in secret by the National Security Agency and outside the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the 1978 law that is supposed to regulate the way the government can listen to the private communications of American citizens.

“This more or less legalizes the N.S.A. program,” said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies in Washington, who has studied the new legislation.

Previously, the government needed search warrants approved by a special intelligence court to eavesdrop on telephone conversations, e-mail messages and other electronic communications between individuals inside the United States and people overseas, if the government conducted the surveillance inside the United States.

Today, most international telephone conversations to and from the United States are conducted over fiber-optic cables, and the most efficient way for the government to eavesdrop on them is to latch on to giant telecommunications switches located in the United States.

By changing the legal definition of what is considered “electronic surveillance,” the new law allows the government to eavesdrop on those conversations without warrants — latching on to those giant switches — as long as the target of the government’s surveillance is “reasonably believed” to be overseas.

For example, if a person in Indianapolis calls someone in London, the National Security Agency can eavesdrop on that conversation without a warrant, as long as the N.S.A.’s target is the person in London.

Tony Fratto, a White House spokesman, said Sunday in an interview that the new law went beyond fixing the foreign-to-foreign problem, potentially allowing the government to listen to Americans calling overseas.

But he stressed that the objective of the new law is to give the government greater flexibility in focusing on foreign suspects overseas, not to go after Americans.

“It’s foreign, that’s the point,” Mr. Fratto said. “What you want to make sure is that you are getting the foreign target.”

The legislation to change the surveillance act was rushed through both the House and Senate in the last days before the August recess began.

The White House’s push for the change was driven in part by a still-classified ruling earlier this year by the special intelligence court, which said the government needed to seek court-approved warrants to monitor those international calls going through American switches.

The new law, which is intended as a stopgap and expires in six months, also represents a power shift in terms of the oversight and regulation of government surveillance.

The new law gives the attorney general and the director of national intelligence the power to approve the international surveillance, rather than the special intelligence court. The court’s only role will be to review and approve the procedures used by the government in the surveillance after it has been conducted. It will not scrutinize the cases of the individuals being monitored.

The law also gave the administration greater power to force telecommunications companies to cooperate with such spying operations. The companies can now be compelled to cooperate by orders from the attorney general and the director of national intelligence.

Democratic Congressional aides said Sunday that some telecommunications company officials had told Congressional leaders that they were unhappy with that provision in the bill and might challenge the new law in court. The aides said the telecommunications companies had told lawmakers that they would rather have a court-approved warrant ordering them to comply.

In fact, pressure from the telecommunications companies on the Bush administration has apparently played a major hidden role in the political battle over the surveillance issue over the past few months.

In January, the administration placed the N.S.A.’s warrantless wiretapping program under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and subjected it for the first time to the scrutiny of the FISA court.

Democratic Congressional aides said Sunday that they believed that pressure from major telecommunications companies on the White House was a major factor in persuading the Bush administration to do that. Those companies were facing major lawsuits for having secretly cooperated with the warrantless wiretapping program, and now wanted greater legal protections before cooperating further.

But the change suddenly swamped the court with an enormous volume of search warrant applications, leading, in turn, to the administration’s decision to seek the new legislation.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2007, 10:50:58 AM »
I don't have a problem with this. Before the NSA could get info from a variety of signal intelligence, but with hard wired networks its become harder. They need to act fast. Even so, the Fisa court only rejected 4 requests since 1979. The law will only last a few more months unless its made permanent by Congress. With the London attacks, they found plenty of email chatter and have been able to get inside the information networks these guys are using. This will help should AQ gear up for another attack inside the US. The libs are all worried about this law but once they are in control, they will be able to use it to their advantage when its their turn to defend the country.
L

Eyeball Chambers

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14344
  • Would you hold still? You're making me fuck up...
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2007, 12:15:47 PM »
Wonder what our Founding Fathers would think of this?
S

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2007, 01:03:41 PM »
Well, i don't think they would be thrilled but they were, if anything realistic. Once the threat is gone, if ever, we can revisit the need.
L

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2007, 01:30:31 PM »
I don't have a problem with this. Before the NSA could get info from a variety of signal intelligence, but with hard wired networks its become harder. They need to act fast. Even so, the Fisa court only rejected 4 requests since 1979. The law will only last a few more months unless its made permanent by Congress. With the London attacks, they found plenty of email chatter and have been able to get inside the information networks these guys are using. This will help should AQ gear up for another attack inside the US. The libs are all worried about this law but once they are in control, they will be able to use it to their advantage when its their turn to defend the country.


This is part of the reason I see the neo-cons have got to power because someone or some group sold the American people on believing that if a democrat was in office our country would be less safe. 

The problem with people is that a belief is more powerful than fact.

We are treading on very dangerous ground here as we give up liberties and rights because we think it will make us safer.

We should have on call 24/7 Judges.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2007, 01:48:17 PM »
They do..there is some evidence to suggest that had Bush been more forthcoming, nobody would have raised any issues. I understand completely the slippery slope on this issue. I just don't think we can afford to be wrong. I'm willing to give a little to be safe.
L

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2007, 01:53:30 PM »
They do..there is some evidence to suggest that had Bush been more forthcoming, nobody would have raised any issues. I understand completely the slippery slope on this issue. I just don't think we can afford to be wrong. I'm willing to give a little to be safe.

I think we can accomplish what we need and not have to give up rights in the process.

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2007, 02:36:52 PM »
Why is there no oversight on this to avoid abuse - wtf purpose could there be for not having oversight????


The new law gives the attorney general and the director of national intelligence the power to approve the international surveillance, rather than the special intelligence court. The court’s only role will be to review and approve the procedures used by the government in the surveillance after it has been conducted. It will not scrutinize the cases of the individuals being monitored.


OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2007, 03:50:29 PM »
could the libs. be any weaker ? LOL LOL

Could the sheep be anymore ignorant and brainwashed?   ;D

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2007, 03:57:07 PM »
If it takes more effort and money to protect and maintain the rights granted to every citizen under the constitution in order to accomplish the goal of being able to "wire-tap" on the fly with a judges approval than that's what we have to do.

I agree the NSA and such need the ability to wire-tap on the fly but they can do what they need and get a Judge's approval.  It's a matter of making a system that works and preserves our right under the constitution.

To just dismiss that notion as being "liberal" or weak is a good example of the beginnings of fascism.   And speaks of the garden variety RUSH worshiping idiots who are nothing more than blunt instruments who are useful as door guards and suicide bombers only. 

I am not willing to give up my rights because certain people are easy to scare and live in fear like little sissy boys.

Purge_WTF

  • Guest
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2007, 05:30:47 PM »
it must really suck being a spineless liberal.....huh?

  Not as much as being a brain-washed, bobble-headed, Kool-Aid guzzling, Neo-Con pussy.

  And yeah, I know--as long as you have nothing to hide, you'll be okay.  ::)

  We need true Conservatives like Ron Paul to help restore the Constitution that the current administration continuously wipes its crusty ass with.

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2007, 05:40:23 PM »
it must really suck being a spineless liberal.....huh?

what ever you say sissy boy.   ::)

Hugo Chavez

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31866
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2007, 05:54:22 PM »
Well, i don't think they would be thrilled but they were, if anything realistic. Once the threat is gone, if ever, we can revisit the need.
OH FOR FUCK SAKE.... You just won the BWHAHAHAHHAHAHA AWARD of the century...  we can revisit it... ::)  That'll happen...  Oh yea, you're the first to say terrorism is defeatable...  new one on everyone here...  It's been pretty much a given even by righties on this board that Bush has launched us into a perpetual war...

The sickest part to all of this lays in how many righties would be all bent out of shape if ALL of this were happening under a dem in the white house...  But since it's a republican, well... It must be ok...  ::)

MB_722

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11173
  • RIP Keith
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2007, 06:03:11 PM »
If it takes more effort and money to protect and maintain the rights granted to every citizen under the constitution in order to accomplish the goal of being able to "wire-tap" on the fly with a judges approval than that's what we have to do.

I agree the NSA and such need the ability to wire-tap on the fly but they can do what they need and get a Judge's approval.  It's a matter of making a system that works and preserves our right under the constitution.

To just dismiss that notion as being "liberal" or weak is a good example of the beginnings of fascism.   And speaks of the garden variety RUSH worshiping idiots who are nothing more than blunt instruments who are useful as door guards and suicide bombers only. 

I am not willing to give up my rights because certain people are easy to scare and live in fear like little sissy boys.

as usual, the dems FOLD like a cheap suit.

weak, limp and spineless.

they make it easy for bush to trample on.  ;D

Are you retarded?

Seriously how do you disagree with what Ozmo wrote?

Bush followers, followers in general are spineless. Don't ask why, follow the leader

hahahahaha

Hugo Chavez

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31866
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2007, 06:26:33 PM »
I am at a complete loss at why Bush, with his approval rating, has won everything he's wanted from the dems.  holy fucking shit... Really it's beyond me... ::)

Eyeball Chambers

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14344
  • Would you hold still? You're making me fuck up...
Re: Bush Signs Law to Widen Legal Reach for Wiretapping, no warrant needed?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2007, 08:15:37 PM »
Coming Soon?

S