Author Topic: The Surge is working...maybe.  (Read 3014 times)

dizzleman06

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2007, 03:45:36 PM »
We haven’t won because:

• the war was poorly managed (not enough troops, etc.)
• the war itself was unnecessary (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11)

If we had kept our eye on the ball--Al Queda (which is as strong now than it was before 911) and Bin Laden--we wouldn’t be talking about this right now and your dumb ass would not be put in the laughable position of defending a failed leader with failed policies.  Given a choice between following the leadership of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld (I actually respect Gates) I’d rather be at a martini bar having a mojito (I don't drink cosmos) with my life partner.

How do those two points combat what I said???  I agree with the first point...  We should have went in with more troops right off.  furthermore, we went after Iraq because of WMD and not just what they could do with them, but who they could distribute them to(insert taliban)...sorry, I didn't mean to yell.  I love mojitos...does that make me gay?

muscleforlife

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2007, 07:19:23 PM »
So,
Im waiting for the good news from the powers that be(white house) to show the surge is working or is taking a turn for the better.

All I read about is Iraqi government is walking out of cabinet meetings.  Truck bombs still going off in public places in Bhagdad.

I would love for the Iraqi government to take control of their country and have all foreigners weaned off and out of their country.

Unfortunatly we are going to be there for years.

I think if  we, as a  People were asked to sacrifice  something...gas rations, silk stockings, metals and felt that we are actually in wartime, the outcome of this engagement would have an exit plan.

Sandra

Decker

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2007, 06:41:11 AM »
I'll try to go point by point...

Our ROE especially during the invasion was crazy at times. You show your contempt of the militray by assuming we'd just mow down civilians..not true and you know it.

Terrorism is not a police issue..this is crazy and no real anti terrorism expert is going to agree. Such agencies can play a part. Big at times, small at other, but not the driving force.These are not Germans or Russians or anybody we have ever faced. We can't talk to them..so forget it.

The Philippine insurrection as a military operation was a success. We fought and defeated the same type of enemy, in very hard terrain. People die in war, its an unpleasant but pretty standard outcome. If more Americans understood the realties of combat, we might have the will to win this war in a very quick manner. This would save the lives of many Iraqi's. Th rest, illiegal war stuff..I'm not getting into..we both disagree...enough said.
What exactly is wrong with the current ROE? 

“Brigadier General Frank Wiercinski, the deputy commanding general for support with Multi-National Division North, does not see the rules of engagement as restrictive.”  "I can tell you that no soldier at any time is held back from defense of himself, from the destruction of property, or from the killing of innocent Iraqis," the general reports. "And every soldier has that initial right." http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/01/iraq_commander_says_no_restric.php

If you want ROE like the sort in WWII, ask the president to ask congress to declare war on Iraq.

This goes to my contention that battling terrorists is not a military problem.  You guys are left holding the bag in a guerilla war.  I don’t think that can be won.  You brought up the conquering of the Philippines, but that included concentration camps, a million dead, and an enemy that was armed with sticks and rocks.  Times have changed and so have the capabilities of the guerilla warriors.

Terrorism is a police problem if we go after the criminal network that attacked us on 9/11.  This goes to the heart of the matter:  You defend the indefensible.  Why did we attack Iraq?  They didn’t attack us on 9/11.  They weren’t complicit with Al Qaeda.  Iraq is not a terrorist problem linked to 9/11, it is something created by president Bush’s illegal use of force against the country.

We invaded and took over and now you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole--Iraqi resistance and battling terrorism.  Calling Iraqi resisters ‘terrorists’ while the military engages in policing neighborhoods is what it’s reduced to.

How would you liberalize the ROE to accommodate victory in Iraq?

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2007, 07:09:41 AM »
Alot of what i think we should do is almost to late to do. We were not allowed to engage Fedayeen Saddam while we were moving up toward Bagdad. These are the guys we're fighting now. I would not have dismantled the Army and Police.

If we want to win, we'd restrict the media...sorry but they need to go. We would tell Iran that if we get solid proof that Revolutionary Guard are caught inside Iraq, or that we see anymore molten core penetrator IED's, we're going after them. Not on the ground mind u....but pounding the shit outa targets from the air. I would then split the country. I'd pull troops back to major bases or Kuwait. I'd use SOF to hunt and kill AQ inside Iraq.

They were not criminals....they were jihadist nutbags. They had no plan but to cause death. Criminals have something, generally financial,  to gain. Criminals don't kill themselves in robberies or crimes, they try and get away. Your missing the point and by doing so understating the threat. I can call them whatever the heck i want....they're killing my fellow soldiers. These guys won't like u or any other Lib because u might label them "freedom fighters". If they stopped fighting we'd leave and they'd have all the freedom they could handle. In any case..we are in Iraq and we have to win. Losing will invite further attacks.
L

Victor VonDoom

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2007, 08:09:00 AM »
You are a fool . . . maybe.

dizzleman06

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2007, 08:14:00 AM »
So,
Im waiting for the good news from the powers that be(white house) to show the surge is working or is taking a turn for the better.

All I read about is Iraqi government is walking out of cabinet meetings.  Truck bombs still going off in public places in Bhagdad.

I would love for the Iraqi government to take control of their country and have all foreigners weaned off and out of their country.

Unfortunatly we are going to be there for years.

I think if  we, as a  People were asked to sacrifice  something...gas rations, silk stockings, metals and felt that we are actually in wartime, the outcome of this engagement would have an exit plan.

Sandra

JUST IN THE LAST TWO DAYS WE HAVE KILLED OVER 50 MILITANTS AND CAPTURED ALMOST 20 MORE...  IS THIS NOT PROGRESS?

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2007, 08:25:25 AM »
You are a fool . . . maybe.

Thanks..for that.
L

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2007, 08:26:46 AM »
It looks like the Brits are popping smoke at the end of the year or sooner. I'm not sure what this will mean....we might have to try and secure the south, which we don't have enough guys to do.
L

Decker

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2007, 08:30:14 AM »
Alot of what i think we should do is almost to late to do. We were not allowed to engage Fedayeen Saddam while we were moving up toward Bagdad. These are the guys we're fighting now. I would not have dismantled the Army and Police.

If we want to win, we'd restrict the media...sorry but they need to go. We would tell Iran that if we get solid proof that Revolutionary Guard are caught inside Iraq, or that we see anymore molten core penetrator IED's, we're going after them. Not on the ground mind u....but pounding the shit outa targets from the air. I would then split the country. I'd pull troops back to major bases or Kuwait. I'd use SOF to hunt and kill AQ inside Iraq.

They were not criminals....they were jihadist nutbags. They had no plan but to cause death. Criminals have something, generally financial,  to gain. Criminals don't kill themselves in robberies or crimes, they try and get away. Your missing the point and by doing so understating the threat. I can call them whatever the heck i want....they're killing my fellow soldiers. These guys won't like u or any other Lib because u might label them "freedom fighters". If they stopped fighting we'd leave and they'd have all the freedom they could handle. In any case..we are in Iraq and we have to win. Losing will invite further attacks.
Those are valid points.  The de-Bathification of Iraqi governmental forces was a horrible call

I conclude from your comment re the media that you don’t want to have every military move on video.  Whether that’s apt or not is up for discussion, but as with the de-bathification, you can thank the current administration for putting you in this position with embedded reporters.

As for Iran, it is not the place of the troops to decide to go after them.  The ROE for Iran is still in the province of the politicians.  Since it was obvious prior to the invasion of Iraq that the Shia Iran would align itself with the de facto ruling Shia majority of Iraq, it seems Iranian influence should have been anticipated.

The civil war already split the country along sectarian lines.  As for using SOF to kill Al Qaeda in Iraq…there is very little Al Qaeda presence in Iraq compared with the total composition of the “insurgency”. 


I beg to differ with you that the 9/11 terrorists were not criminals; the 9/11 attackers were criminals in every sense of the word.  From the conspiracy all the way to the murders; The wrongful act by the fact of itself is a criminal act.

You are mischaracterizing the terrorist threat and as a result, overstating it.  The people that are killing your fellow soldiers are largely Iraqi people reacting to the invasion and occupation.  That is a natural reaction if you think about it.  Put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi citizen and try to conclude otherwise.

You presuppose only dual options—win (how do you define victory?) or lose (how do you define losing?).  Does a phased withdrawal constitute a loss?  We have no legal or moral footing for staying in Iraq.

Are you aware of the “redirection” policy that the US government is currently using?

“To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda.”

Flynt Leverett, a former Bush Administration National Security Council official, told me that “there is nothing coincidental or ironic” about the new strategy with regard to Iraq. “The Administration is trying to make a case that Iran is more dangerous and more provocative than the Sunni insurgents to American interests in Iraq, when—if you look at the actual casualty numbers—the punishment inflicted on America by the Sunnis is greater by an order of magnitude,” Leverett said. “This is all part of the campaign of provocative steps to increase the pressure on Iran. The idea is that at some point the Iranians will respond and then the Administration will have an open door to strike at them.”   http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/03/05/070305fa_fact_hersh

The Bush administration is trying mightily to rope Iran into a war.

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2007, 08:55:47 AM »
Criminals generally benefit financially from a crime...these guys were acting like saboteurs or spies...much like the French Resistance.  They themselves do not view themselves as criminals but soldiers. This is symantics because I think u need to use all resources to combat these guys.

Absolutely they should have forseen some of the secondary effects. I'm not sure what they thought would happen. But if u had 500,000 guys on the ground, it would have been alot less. The insurgency could have been stifled.

Win or losse....my definition is....an Iraqi State that can defend itslef, internally and externally. Thus allowing us to withdraw. A loss would be a pull-out (quickly)while Iraq slips toward either a civil war and or into Iranian hegemony.
L

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2007, 09:00:49 AM »
L

Decker

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2007, 09:04:33 AM »
http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/JulAug07/indexengjulaug07.asp

Some good articles about Iran.
Thanks for the source HH.  I'll look at some of those articles over lunch.

I'd hate to think that the long-term Bush strategy was that the Iraqi invasion was a subterfuge and that Iran is the real target.

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2007, 09:05:11 AM »
I love the embed program.....you get the truth. It works very well. What i don't like is reports from the Green Zone or wherever that don't have a clear picture of whats going on. YTalk to any vet. The media reports only bad news. Embeds tell the whole story. The media has not been used effectively in Iraq..or not as well as we needed it to work to tell our story. Some BS lib blogger from California has no idea whats going on. On the Right, u get Generals who have never served in combat or in Iraq, saying things are great. The truth is in the middle.
L

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2007, 09:07:17 AM »
No i think we had options with Iran...I think other things could have been done. The article I want u to read is on the Iranian POV and some good recent history. I think Bush hated Saddam, thought he had WMDs and he had to go. Right or wrong, I think this is how he felt. Perhaps Iran was the bigger threat globally, but......
L

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2007, 09:26:35 AM »
Decker...


Make sure u read this one.....Its what I ment about the media. Its about half way down on the site I sent u.

http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/JulAug07/RidINSIGHTS.pdf
L

Decker

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2007, 10:22:18 AM »
Decker...


Make sure u read this one.....Its what I ment about the media. Its about half way down on the site I sent u.

http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/JulAug07/RidINSIGHTS.pdf
Thanks, I did read it.  The only critical point I would make is that the US media, embedded or not, were not critical of the Iraqi war from the outset.  They were cheerleaders for the war.  Therefore, any type of governmental oversight of the media work products during the embedding process was not necessary.  There was no need.   The media was playing ball voluntarily.  The liberal media does not strike again.

Decker

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2007, 10:23:24 AM »
http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/JulAug07/indexengjulaug07.asp

Some good articles about Iran.
So far this article is pretty good.  My damn job keeps interrupting though.  I hate these inconveniences.

headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2007, 11:16:20 AM »
Embed's work great..even some of the pricklier personalties do pretty good by the soldiers and the mission....its the talking heads in DC and New York or those who don't venture out who do a very bad job.
L

Decker

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2007, 07:32:39 AM »
I found this article on the effect of the Surge so far. 

The US Defense Department says that, this June, the average number of attacks on US and Iraqi forces, civilian forces and infrastructure peaked at 177.8 per day, higher than in any month since the end of May 2003. The US has failed to gain control of Baghdad. The harvest of bodies picked up every morning first fell and then rose again. This may be because the Mehdi Army militia, who provided most of the Shia death squads, was stood down by Sadr. Nobody in Baghdad has much doubt that they could be back in business any time they want. Whatever Bush might say, the US military commanders in Iraq clearly did not want to take on the Mehdi Army and the Shia community when they were barely holding their own against the Sunni.  http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2841425.ece

I was thinking about the Iraq invasion again. 

The president sends US troops into Iraq to enforce IRaq's compliance with WMD inspections required under the terms of surrender from the first war.

Bush orders the attack before the inspectors finish inspecting even though the UN resolution requires the inspectors to finish their jobs/find wmds before there can be any use of force by the US.

Instead of compelling inspections (which were already going on???), the military overthrows the government of Iraq and installs a new one.  How that jibes with the use of force authorized under the UN Resolution compelling inspections is beyond me.

Bush orders the military to defend the newly established government by occupying/running Baghdad.

The objectives changed from enforcing inspections, to overthrowing a government, to establishing a new government, to policing the country to keep the new government afloat.

It is no wonder that things are failing.  Who in the hell drew up these plans?



headhuntersix

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2007, 09:19:21 AM »
Rumsfeld and Wolfawitz scrapped the long standing plan that DOD had come up with over 9 years and went with a last minute drive by plan put together by idiots.

It was a complete mistake not to kill Al sadr..he was abit player loosing power, ignoring him and then critizing him later gained him prominance and power.

We're pushing in there now, raids, airstrikes, which are not the most affective.
L

Bindare_Dundat

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2007, 07:02:26 PM »
Nothing will change because Americans are HATED over there. For every one Iraqi that claims to thank you for being there, there are thirty that would eat your heart for breakfast. They hate you because their whole lives have been turned upside down and who can blame them? Everything that Americans touch over there has turned to a pile of shit, what will change?


dizzleman06

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2007, 07:09:58 AM »
Nothing will change because Americans are HATED over there. For every one Iraqi that claims to thank you for being there, there are thirty that would eat your heart for breakfast. They hate you because their whole lives have been turned upside down and who can blame them? Everything that Americans touch over there has turned to a pile of shit, what will change?

yeah, relieving them from an oppressive tyrant...turned their life upside down.  and not everything that we touch has turned to shit...I Think that you are thinking of the taliban.  we aren't the ones setting off car bombs and blowing up mosques...that is a very stupid comment...  but then again you are probably stupid, so.....


Bindare_Dundat

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2007, 08:02:59 PM »
yeah, relieving them from an oppressive tyrant...turned their life upside down.  and not everything that we touch has turned to shit...I Think that you are thinking of the taliban.  we aren't the ones setting off car bombs and blowing up mosques...that is a very stupid comment...  but then again you are probably stupid, so.....



 ::)

24KT

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2007, 12:01:40 PM »
First off..we are not getting our asses kicked...and besides this is ur damm countryas well, except u (collectively)have sacrificed nothing, not a damm fucking thing. So, if we in the Military, are a little hesitant about leaving before we have something,anything, to show for the dead and wounded comrades, broken marriages and large chunks of normal life, now missing from our lives, u might have to forgive us. And don't give that 'You signed up crap" We signed up to defend this country for you. Once in,  we don't decide where to get sent. I don't see long lines at the recruiting office. I will be in the Army long after this war is over and I don't want to go through the Post Iraqi war crap like we did after Nam. And keep in mind, if the surge is working, we'll be there longer, and I'll have to go back. I don't mind at all.

Wow HH, I know you're pissed, and you're sensitive about this, ...and I know you guys are making sacrifices,
but to tell an American at home that they haven't sacrificed anything, is as offensive as saying "who gives a shit about soldiers on the front lines?" They may not be getting shot at everyday, ...but Americans at home are sacrificing as well. They are sacrificing their own safety & security because all resources are being put into a bottomless spending pit called Iraq that shouldn't be on the bill to begin with. They are sacrificing their rights every day for lies. Their borders are not secure and never will be. The social secuirity funds are being plundered. They and their children for generations to come are being saddled with burdensome debt, while the treasury is being pillaged. And they are sacrificing the very America they have grown to love. There is a reason you don't see long lines at the recruiting offices. If there were WMDs in Iraq, and if Saddam did pose an imminent risk to America, the line up around recruiting offices would be a heckuva lot longer.
w

24KT

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Re: The Surge is working...maybe.
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2007, 03:11:50 PM »



The Surge's Short Shelf Life
By BOBBY GHOSH
Wed Aug 15, 1:45 PM ET

Hospital officials in northwestern Iraq have told TIME that the death toll from Tuesday's blasts in Qahataniya may exceed 300, making the multiple suicide bombings the deadliest terrorist operation in the country since the fall of Saddam Hussein. One hospital is saying that there are at least 500 bodies and that 375 people are injured. That report, however, cannot yet be verified. The only previous occasion when the toll from concerted attacks has exceeded 200 was last November, when six car-bombs in Baghdad's Sadr City killed 215 people. If the toll in the Qataniya incident grows, it could become the worst terrorist incident since al-Qaeda's September 11, 2001 attack on the U.S. (The Beslan massacre in Russia in September 2004 came to approximately 330, about half of the total children).

Since then, the massive "surge" of U.S. and Iraqi troops in and around Baghdad has made the Iraqi capital safer than before from such bombings - but terrorist groups have stepped up attacks elsewhere. There have been a number of attacks in northern Iraq, which had enjoyed a long spell of peace before the start of the "surge."

Tuesday's bombings were also a reminder that even successful U.S. military operations can have a short shelf life - a sobering thought for Bush Administration officials and independent analysts who have recently been talking up the successes of the "surge." After all, the area around Qahataniya was the scene of a major anti-insurgent operation barely two years ago. In the fall of 2005, some 8,000 American and Iraqi troops flushed a terrorist group out of the nearby town of Tal Afar in an operation that was a precursor to the "clear, hold and build" strategy that underpins the current "surge." A few months later, President Bush cited Tal Afar as a success story for the U.S. enterprise in Iraq.

There have been several attacks in and around Tal Afar since then; last March, two truck bombs killed more than 100 people in a Shi'ite neighborhood in the town. The bombings in Qahataniya were a deadly reminder that the terrorists have not gone very far away.

The U.S. military said al-Qaeda was the prime suspect; some Iraqi government officials fingered Ansar al-Sunnah, which has links to al-Qaeda and has long been active in northern Iraq. Early reports suggest the majority of the victims were Yazidis, a pre-Islamic sect in Syria and northern Iraq.

Throughout history, Yazidis have faced persecution because an archangel they worship as a representative of God is often identified by Muslims (and some Christians) as Satan. Branded as devil worshipers, they are detested by extremists on both sides of Iraq's sectarian divide.

The Yazidis have their own extremists: earlier this year, members of the community stoned to death a young woman they accused of converting to Sunni Islam to marry her lover. A widely distributed video of the stoning inflamed Sunni sentiments; in retaliation, insurgents executed 23 Yazidi factory workers near Mosul.

With reporting by Andrew Lee Butters
w