Author Topic: Happy Hiroshima Day!!! hundreds of thousands japs zapped in a flash whoohoo!!!!  (Read 5665 times)

powerpack

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Your claim of revisionist history is not merited b/c the debate over the veracity of Truman's rationale for bombing (a speedy end the war) is disputed by many historians.  The Russians attacked 2 days after the first bomb was dropped.
As far as I know they never attacked they simply declared war on Japan a few days before the war ended (so basically just after the bombs where dropped) so they could make war restitution claims against Japan and do as much land grabbing as they could on an already defeated foe.
Stalin was cruel, paranoid and insane but he was no fool.

Decker

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1. we had to keep the russkies out of japan, and the only way to ensure that was a quick surrender. hence the bomb.

2. I don't know where you're coming up with the bullshit about generals disagreeing with Truman's call.  Lemay  was more than on-board with the decision . . . the man loved the bomb.

3. Another Normandy-type invasion would have cost too many american lives.



Are these the words of LeMay?

Major General Curtis E. LeMay, US Army Air Forces (at a press conference, September 1945):
"The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb . . . the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all."

Yes those are the words of LeMay.


Decker

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they didn't call him bombs away lemay for nothing...
Are these the words of LeMay?

Major General Curtis E. LeMay, US Army Air Forces (at a press conference, September 1945):
"The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb . . . the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all."

Yes those are the words of LeMay.

rockyfortune

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As far as I know they never attacked they simply declared war on Japan a few days before the war ended (so basically just after the bombs where dropped) so they could make war restitution claims against Japan and do as much land grabbing as they could on an already defeated foe.
Stalin was cruel, paranoid and insane but he was no fool.


They attacked into Manchuria....mongolia and korea...it went on for close to 3 weeks...
footloose and fancy free

Decker

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My question is then, what did the Generals think would end the war?
I think it was the 5000+ bombing raids on Japan that sapped their will.

rockyfortune

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Are these the words of LeMay?

Major General Curtis E. LeMay, US Army Air Forces (at a press conference, September 1945):
"The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb . . . the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all."

Yes those are the words of LeMay.



ok...what's the point?
footloose and fancy free

Decker

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ok...what's the point?
I'm pointing out an historical fact of the general's perspective according to his own words.  Therefore I am not revising history.

Hell I know LeMay was a mad bomber, but even he drew the line at atomic warfare in Japan.

rockyfortune

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I'm pointing out an historical fact of the general's perspective according to his own words.  Therefore I am not revising history.

Hell I know LeMay was a mad bomber, but even he drew the line at atomic warfare in Japan.


you may want read up a bit on lemay...he didn't think the bomb was necessary against japan, yes, but he certainly wasn't against the bomb per se...his doctrine of using overwhelming and maximum force against an enemy was evident--using incendiary bombs and napalm in japan and favoring a first strike mentality against the soviet union.

when i spoke of revisionist history--it speaks of a group or school of thought of historians who believe that using the atom bomb against japan wasn't needed and that it could have ended without bringing the atomic age into being--thus, hopefully, avoiding an arms race...hell, even the los alamos scientists building the bomb had their doubts and attempted to convince the govt not to use the thing but to just demonstrate it to the japanese.   
footloose and fancy free

OzmO

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I think it was the 5000+ bombing raids on Japan that sapped their will.

More people died in 1 Tokyo fire bombing raid than in one of those A-bomb droppings and yet the Japanese weren't willing to surrender.   I think the Generals didn't know what the A-bomb really could do and perhaps many believed it wouldn't work.

Decker

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you may want read up a bit on lemay...he didn't think the bomb was necessary against japan, yes, but he certainly wasn't against the bomb per se...his doctrine of using overwhelming and maximum force against an enemy was evident--using incendiary bombs and napalm in japan and favoring a first strike mentality against the soviet union.

when i spoke of revisionist history--it speaks of a group or school of thought of historians who believe that using the atom bomb against japan wasn't needed and that it could have ended without bringing the atomic age into being--thus, hopefully, avoiding an arms race...hell, even the los alamos scientists building the bomb had their doubts and attempted to convince the govt not to use the thing but to just demonstrate it to the japanese.   
Here is the full context of the quote:

"LeMay: The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb.

"The Press: You mean that, sir? Without the Russians and the atomic bomb?

"LeMay: Yes, with the B-29…

"The Press: General, why use the atomic bomb? Why did we use it then?

"LeMay: Well, the other people were not convinced…

"The Press: Had they not surrendered because of the atomic bomb?

"LeMay: The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all."

Since we are discussing the atomic bombing of Japan in WWII I would think you would restrict the debate to that topic instead of speculating on whether LeMay thought atomic bombs had any utility at all.  LeMay did firebomb Japan and he admitted that if the US lost he would have been viewed as a war criminal.  Again that is not germane to the topic.

The revisionism you are referring to is:

1.  that using the atom bomb against japan wasn't needed  (as I pointed out many of the major generals thought it unnecessary to secure victory so I don't think that's revisionism)

But when joined with point #2 that would be a questoinable assertion.

2.  it could have ended without bringing the atomic age into being avoiding the arms race (I'm not familiar with this school of thought)

I know Oppenheimer was against the bomb's use.


Decker

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More people died in 1 Tokyo fire bombing raid than in one of those A-bomb droppings and yet the Japanese weren't willing to surrender.   I think the Generals didn't know what the A-bomb really could do and perhaps many believed it wouldn't work.
You have the generals's own words.  Yet you continue to speculate that they were wrong or misinformed. 

The Japanese were trying to negotiate surrender and indeed tried to surrender on 3 different occasions prior to the bombing.  Truman pulled a George w. Bush and said unconditional surrender or nothing--there was bone of contention over the status of the emperor.

Al-Gebra

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Where exactly does Lemay say that he disagrees w Truman's call?  I must have missed that part. quit blowing smoke, mr. the-russians-didn't-invade-until-two-days-after.

OzmO

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You have the generals's own words.  Yet you continue to speculate that they were wrong or misinformed. 

The Japanese were trying to negotiate surrender and indeed tried to surrender on 3 different occasions prior to the bombing.  Truman pulled a George w. Bush and said unconditional surrender or nothing--there was bone of contention over the status of the emperor.

All we have is that they were against it.  We don't know why they were against it.

We wanted Unconditional surrender because we felt we needed to the stop and end the potential militiristic nature of their culture.  This isn't like BUSH and his gross abuse of lives.   The Japanese had killed and invaded dozens of peaceful countries killing thousands if not millions.

rockyfortune

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revisionism is looking at history through a different set of glasses,,,forming new opinions based on a different type of thought especially in light of today's happenings...just because you state ''the generals didn't think it was necessary"... that the thought of not using the bomb is not a revisionist view is a pretty weak argument..oppenheimer wasn't against atomic technology AFTER the use of the bomb...it was szilard and einstein who started to get cold feet before the bomb was complete.  


agreed...no where in what you posted shows lemay disagreeing with truman's call...he said it wasn't needed..that's all.  he figured he'd firebomb them and they'd quit then..truman figured..why fuck with firebombing when we have this weapon...it all comes from viewpoint..lemay had been an old school trained military officer while truman was the new guy in town with the latest, and greatest weapon--capable of ending the war quickly.  why fart around with incendiary and napalm when you had the motherlode sitting in new mexico.  
footloose and fancy free

Decker

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Where exactly does Lemay say that he disagrees w Truman's call?  I must have missed that part. quit blowing smoke, mr. the-russians-didn't-invade-until-two-days-after.
hahahaha...I deserved that.

rockyfortune

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But when joined with point #2 that would be a questoinable assertion.

2.  it could have ended without bringing the atomic age into being avoiding the arms race (I'm not familiar with this school of thought)

I know Oppenheimer was against the bomb's use.


read gar alperovitz's book called The decision to use the atomic bomb...start with this and work your way through the bibliography..you'll see numerous schools of thought.
footloose and fancy free

Decker

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All we have is that they were against it.  We don't know why they were against it.

We wanted Unconditional surrender because we felt we needed to the stop and end the potential militiristic nature of their culture.  This isn't like BUSH and his gross abuse of lives.   The Japanese had killed and invaded dozens of peaceful countries killing thousands if not millions.
Here are some more quotes to help us flesh out why they were against the atomic bombings:

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages."
---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II


Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, quoted by his widow:
". . . I felt that it was an unnecessary loss of civilian life. . . . We had them beaten. They hadn't enough food, they couldn't do anything." And – E. B. Potter, naval historian wrote: "Nimitz considered the atomic bomb somehow indecent, certainly not a legitimate form of warfare."


Rear Admiral Richard Byrd:
"Especially it is good to see the truth told about the last days of the war with Japan. . . . I was with the Fleet during that period; and every officer in the Fleet knew that Japan would eventually capitulate from . . . the tight blockade."


Rear Admiral Lewis L. Strauss, special assistant to the Secretary of the Navy:
"I, too, felt strongly that it was a mistake to drop the atom bombs, especially without warning." [The atomic bomb] "was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion . . . it was clear to a number of people . . . that the war was very nearly over. The Japanese were nearly ready to capitulate . . . it was a sin – to use a good word – [a word that] should be used more often – to kill non-combatants. . . ."


Henry H. "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General of the US Army Air Forces.
". . . [F]rom the Japanese standpoint the atomic bomb was really a way out. The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell. . . ."

There are a lot more quotes just like that from some big guns.

Decker

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revisionism is looking at history through a different set of glasses,,,forming new opinions based on a different type of thought especially in light of today's happenings...just because you state ''the generals didn't think it was necessary"... that the thought of not using the bomb is not a revisionist view is a pretty weak argument..oppenheimer wasn't against atomic technology AFTER the use of the bomb...it was szilard and einstein who started to get cold feet before the bomb was complete.  


agreed...no where in what you posted shows lemay disagreeing with truman's call...he said it wasn't needed..that's all.  he figured he'd firebomb them and they'd quit then..truman figured..why fuck with firebombing when we have this weapon...it all comes from viewpoint..lemay had been an old school trained military officer while truman was the new guy in town with the latest, and greatest weapon--capable of ending the war quickly.  why fart around with incendiary and napalm when you had the motherlode sitting in new mexico.  
I'm sorry but for whatever reason, I understood your use of the word to be pejorative instead of academic.  As for Oppenheimer:

 "I have no remorse about the making of the bomb and Trinity [the first test of an a-bomb]. That was done right. As for how we used it, I understand why it happened and appreciate with what nobility those men with whom I'd worked made their decision. But I do not have the feeling that it was done right. The ultimatum to Japan [the Potsdam Proclamation demanding Japan's surrender] was full of pious platitudes. ...our government should have acted with more foresight and clarity in telling the world and Japan what the bomb meant."

Einstein had very little to do with the manhattan project.  He was the guy who wrote FDR telling him to get on the stick and create a bomb in the first place.  Very ironic.

You provide an interesting spin on Truman's train of thought. 

The reason why Japan was no longer a threat was b/c they were out of supplies.  Our naval barricade of their harbors and incessant air raids left them with little resources.  They tried to surrender three different times. 

The semantical game you play with LeMay's words and meaning are also interesting.  Eisenhower, MacArthur, Nimitz, Leahy---all were against the use of the bomb and Eisenhower--the main man--advised President Truman TO NOT USE ATOMIC BOMBS IN JAPAN.

These military men were not the yes-men we have today.

Al-Gebra

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when you have new weapons, you want to test them.

and the president is the commander-in-chief for a reason.

Decker

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Here's a pretty good summary, well documented:

Top U.S. military leaders recognized Japan’s growing desperation, prompting several to later insist that the use of atomic bombs was not needed to secure victory. Those who believed that dropping atomic bombs on Japan was morally repugnant and/or militarily unnecessary included Admiral William Leahy, General Dwight Eisenhower, General Douglas MacArthur, General Curtis LeMay, General Henry Arnold, Brigadier General Bonner Fellers, Admiral Ernest King, General Carl Spaatz, Admiral Chester Nimitz, and Admiral William “Bull” Halsey. Groves admitted that he circumvented the Joint Chiefs of Staff to avoid, in part, “Admiral Leahy’s disbelief in the weapon and its hoped-for effectiveness; this would have made action by the Joint Chiefs quite difficult.”[51] In reflecting on his opposition, Leahy, who chaired the meetings of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and served as Truman’s personal chief of staff, emphasized the barbaric nature of the atomic bombs, not doubts about their effectiveness, chillingly proclaiming, “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender....My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.”[52]

Eisenhower was equally appalled, writing in his 1963 Mandate for Change that when he learned from Stimson at Potsdam that use of the bomb was imminent, “I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of ‘face.’” http://japanfocus.org/products/topdf/2479

rockyfortune

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I'm sorry but for whatever reason, I understood your use of the word to be pejorative instead of academic.  As for Oppenheimer:

 "I have no remorse about the making of the bomb and Trinity [the first test of an a-bomb]. That was done right. As for how we used it, I understand why it happened and appreciate with what nobility those men with whom I'd worked made their decision. But I do not have the feeling that it was done right. The ultimatum to Japan [the Potsdam Proclamation demanding Japan's surrender] was full of pious platitudes. ...our government should have acted with more foresight and clarity in telling the world and Japan what the bomb meant."

Einstein had very little to do with the manhattan project.  He was the guy who wrote FDR telling him to get on the stick and create a bomb in the first place.  Very ironic.

You provide an interesting spin on Truman's train of thought. 

The reason why Japan was no longer a threat was b/c they were out of supplies.  Our naval barricade of their harbors and incessant air raids left them with little resources.  They tried to surrender three different times. 

The semantical game you play with LeMay's words and meaning are also interesting.  Eisenhower, MacArthur, Nimitz, Leahy---all were against the use of the bomb and Eisenhower--the main man--advised President Truman TO NOT USE ATOMIC BOMBS IN JAPAN.

These military men were not the yes-men we have today.

nope..just a school of thought.  

if it wasn't for szilard's letter..the manhattan project may not have come to being..einstein signed the letter szilard wrote and it was his fame that got roosevelt to listen.---and his letter kickstarted the construction of the bomb..and it was szilard who conceived the nuclear chain reaction...there parts in the creation of the atomic bomb should not be understated..


who is playing semantics with anyone's words...lemay didn't want to use the bomb because he didn't thing we needed it because we were able to decimate japan conventionally not because of some moral pang in his head...eisenhower was commanding the armies in europe--he didn't have much say in the decision---if anyone had an obvious chance to change truman's mind it was chief of staff marshall---and he said it wasn't a military decision but a political decision which later gave birth to the revisionist school of thought that the bomb was not used to save american lives but as a political bargaining chip to use against the soviets.
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Al-Gebra

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fn 52 is one man's version of things. the actions of some of those men subsequently indicate that they may have felt differently.  Truman reined in Macarthur on Korea . . . and LeMay was ready to use the bomb then too. 

Decker

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nope..just a school of thought.  

if it wasn't for szilard's letter..the manhattan project may not have come to being..einstein signed the letter szilard wrote and it was his fame that got roosevelt to listen.---and his letter kickstarted the construction of the bomb..and it was szilard who conceived the nuclear chain reaction...there parts in the creation of the atomic bomb should not be understated..


who is playing semantics with anyone's words...lemay didn't want to use the bomb because he didn't thing we needed it because we were able to decimate japan conventionally not because of some moral pang in his head...eisenhower was commanding the armies in europe--he didn't have much say in the decision---if anyone had an obvious chance to change truman's mind it was chief of staff marshall---and he said it wasn't a military decision but a political decision which later gave birth to the revisionist school of thought that the bomb was not used to save american lives but as a political bargaining chip to use against the soviets.
I never offered the argument that LeMay's thinking was influenced by any moral code.  The revisionist school of thought you state is interesting but it is not part of my pointing out that the decision to use nuclear bombs in Japan was not shared by the time's leading military men.  It certainly does beg the question that if the atomic bombs were not needed to destroy our enemy or compel surrender, why were they dropped?  But I don't assert that.

Here is the letter Einstein wrote:
F.D. Roosevelt
President of the United States
White House
Washington, D.C.


Sir:

Some recent work by E. Fermi and L. Szilard, which has been communicated to me in manuscript, leads me to expect that the element uranium may be turned into a new and important source of energy in the immediate future. Certain aspects of the situation which has arisen seem to call for watchfulness and if necessary, quick action on the part of the Administration. I believe therefore that it is my duty to bring to your attention the following facts and recommendations.

In the course of the last four months it has been made probable through the work of Joliot in France as well as Fermi and Szilard in America--that it may be possible to set up a nuclear chain reaction in a large mass of uranium, by which vast amounts of power and large quantities of new radium-like elements would be generated. Now it appears almost certain that this could be achieved in the immediate future.

This new phenomenon would also lead to the construction of bombs, and it is conceivable--though much less certain--that extremely powerful bombs of this type may thus be constructed. A single bomb of this type, carried by boat and exploded in a port, might very well destroy the whole port together with some of the surrounding territory. However, such bombs might very well prove too heavy for transportion by air.

The United States has only very poor ores of uranium in moderate quantities. There is some good ore in Canada and former Czechoslovakia, while the most important source of uranium is in the Belgian Congo.

In view of this situation you may think it desirable to have some permanent contact maintained between the Administration and the group of physicists working on chain reactions in America. One possible way of achieving this might be for you to entrust the task with a person who has your confidence and who could perhaps serve in an unofficial capacity. His task might comprise the following:

a) to approach Government Departments, keep them informed of the further development, and put forward recommendations for Government action, giving particular attention to the problem of securing a supply of uranium ore for the United States.

b) to speed up the experimental work, which is at present being carried on within the limits of the budgets of University laboratories, by providing funds, if such funds be required, through his contacts with private persons who are willing to make contributions for this cause, and perhaps also by obtaining co-operation of industrial laboratories which have necessary equipment.

I understand that Germany has actually stopped the sale of uranium from the Czechoslovakian mines which she has taken over. That she should have taken such early action might perhaps be understood on the ground that the son of the German Under-Secretary of State, von Weizsacker, is attached to the Kaiser-Wilhelm Institute in Berlin, where some of the American work on uranium is now being repeated.

Yours very truly,

 
Albert Einstein
 
Related Section
Albert Einstein Biography

Related Reading
 
http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/Begin/Einstein.shtml

24KT

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As I have stated before, and will continue to state:

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the last shots of WWII,
...they were the 1st. opening shots fired in the cold war with the Russians.
w

Al-Gebra

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As I have stated before, and will continue to state:

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the last shots of WWII,
...they were the 1st. opening shots fired in the cold war with the Russians.


gee, thanks for letting us know your vaunted opinion.