Author Topic: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws  (Read 8595 times)

~flower~

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2007, 07:12:05 AM »
If they choose not to do it for everyone, then fine, but to say yes to heterosexuals and no to homosexuals for the sake of religious purpose is wrong.

And as far as forcing someone to commit a sin...I believe when you are going to medical school you are faced with all possible scenarious of the medical world.  If you feel your religion is more forth coming than medical oath...you don't belong in general medicine.  They should be specialized, stating they are religiously correct (so to speak).  Then the patient is aware and will look for a more suited doctor to take care of their personal needs.   

Isn't a fertility doctor specialized?  A doctor is still a person, and that person had a private practice.  They are not working for the state, or government, but privately.  I think they can refuse non medical emergency treatment on their beliefs.

 I still see that what they did wrong was treat her for 11 months and then tell her they couldn't continue because of beliefs.  They never should of treated her in the first place then.

  Based on what limited information has been presented on this particular case, if I had to rule on it, I would fine them for the 11months of treatment and then not following through as being fraudulent. 

 

Laura Lee

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2007, 07:16:26 AM »
Isn't a fertility doctor specialized?  A doctor is still a person, and that person had a private practice.  They are not working for the state, or government, but privately.  I think they can refuse non medical emergency treatment on their beliefs.

 I still see that what they did wrong was treat her for 11 months and then tell her they couldn't continue because of beliefs.  They never should of treated her in the first place then.

  Based on what limited information has been presented on this particular case, if I had to rule on it, I would fine them for the 11months of treatment and then not following through as being fraudulent. 

 

That's what I mean...there should be some kind of verbage stating they practice under religious beliefs. 
:D Weee

BayGBM

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2007, 08:14:34 AM »
That's not the point.  The point is religion should not play a part in a medical procedure. If the woman was married to a man and they couldn't conceive...there would be no problem, but because the woman is gay he has a problem with the procedure due to religion?  It's just wrong, she's not there for insight to religion, she's there to get pregnant and he chose to be a doctor...not a preacher.

I'm glad to see some women on this board get it. 

As I said previously in the thread on landscapers who refused service to a gay couple: "ignorance and bigotry can affect you too" which is why all of us must confront it where ever we find it.  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=105322.0

The idea that a doctor will perform services for patients only after determining that the patient’s private life passes the doctor's religious litmus test is unacceptable.  >:(

Dos Equis

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2007, 08:52:05 AM »
Well Beach, ...how would you feel if your wife, or one of your children needed a blood transfusion to save their lives, but the procedure was neither given nor recommended because your physician was a Jehovah's Witness? Are we now to demand to know the religious beliefs of every service practicioner we interact with? What good would that do us even if we did? Unless we are completely versed in the dogmas and tenets of every religion, such knowledge does us little good anyway. To be required to do that would turn the US into a state similar to one of those radical Islamic countries where one wears their ideological or theological beliefs on their arms... or heads as the case may be. (colored head scarfs). Does that mean when we hire a lawn maintenance company we have to check first to ascertain their religion in order to make sure they will indeed kill the weeds? Afterall, ...they could be wiccan can consider all biological plant life sacred. Does that mean that those who worship at the alter of Versace can refuse to provide medical care to those who dress in Walmart or Kmart's blue light special? Are we stating that Dick Cheney's daughter would make a far less suitable parent because of her orientation than Joan Crawford? I'd rather have a lesbian with a sound head on her shoulders raising future members of society than an abusive, narcissistic, nymphomaniac with obssesions about wire hangers just because she was heterosexual. Good Grief people! Next you'll be saying it was ok for Muslim doctors to refuse medical services to you or your families because they disapprove of your lifestyles and your willingness to allow your women to appear in public unaccompanied by a male relative and without burkas! And before anyone starts with the racist rhetoric (even tho this is the women's board) I'd like to point out that not all Muslims are brown.

You have to stand for something or you will fall for anything, and separation of church and state exists for a reason.

Practice your religious beliefs, ...but do not force them on others, ...and if you're going to live in a secular society, interacting within a secular society, ...then do so. Otherwise pack up and move elsewhere to form your own society where you're free to practice what you want... just like the Morons did when moving to what is now present day Utah.

Your blood transfusion hypothetical is unrealistic.  I'm unaware of doctors refusing life-saving treatment on religious grounds.  I doubt a doctor could keep his or her license, and stay out of jail, if that happened. 

This is an elective procedure.  If the patient doesn't like his/her doctor's religious convictions, the patient can go somewhere else. 

This isn't a church-separation issue at all . . . at least as far as the patient is concerned.  It does involve the doctor's free exercise of religion. 

This is really a mountain out of a molehill.  Elective procedure.  Woman got what she wanted.  Three kids.  Shouldn't be a national (or even local) story.

drkaje

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2007, 01:20:12 PM »
That's not the point.  The point is religion should not play a part in a medical procedure. If the woman was married to a man and they couldn't conceive...there would be no problem, but because the woman is gay he has a problem with the procedure due to religion?  It's just wrong, she's not there for insight to religion, she's there to get pregnant and he chose to be a doctor...not a preacher.

Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Choosing to become a doctor doesn't mean you've lost the right to non medical opinions.

Even in a world where nothing's wrong anymore and people have a right to do whatevr they can afford... occasionally someone is told no. Nature and time conspired against this woman having kids yet she has three. At some point people like this should concentrate on their kids instead of continually seeking attention and approval.

I'm glad to see some women on this board get it. 

As I said previously in the thread on landscapers who refused service to a gay couple: "ignorance and bigotry can affect you too" which is why all of us must confront it where ever we find it.  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=105322.0

The idea that a doctor will perform services for patients only after determining that the patient’s private life passes the doctor's religious litmus test is unacceptable.  >:(

Total BS, as usual.

24KT

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2007, 02:46:57 PM »
So do you think a doctor should have to preform an abortion if he thinks it is wrong or feels it is killing?  He should be forced to kill? 

~Flower~,
The problem in this case was the doctor's disapproval NOT of the procedure, ...but rather of the patient.

It's like saying I don't have a problem doing boob jobs, ...I just won't do them on Asians.

It's as discriminatory as a bank telling you I won't give you a loan to buy a house because you're a single woman.
You should instead find yourself a husband, ...then after you're married, ...they'd be happy to give you that mortgage so you can buy the house.

To quote an intelligent poster on this board:

"Your body, Your choice!"   ;)
w

24KT

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2007, 02:50:43 PM »
Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Choosing to become a doctor doesn't mean you've lost the right to non medical opinions.

Even in a world where nothing's wrong anymore and people have a right to do whatevr they can afford... occasionally someone is told no. Nature and time conspired against this woman having kids yet she has three. At some point people like this should concentrate on their kids instead of continually seeking attention and approval.

I don't think what "people like here" are seeking is attention and approval, but rather equality under the law,
as promised in the Constitution and guaranteed under the Bill of Rights.
w

drkaje

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2007, 02:55:44 PM »
I don't think what "people like here" are seeking is attention and approval, but rather equality under the law,
as promised in the Constitution and guaranteed under the Bill of Rights.

What section of the US Constitution gurantees artificial insemination?

24KT

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2007, 03:06:43 PM »
Your blood transfusion hypothetical is unrealistic.  I'm unaware of doctors refusing life-saving treatment on religious grounds.  I doubt a doctor could keep his or her license, and stay out of jail, if that happened.  

This is an elective procedure.  If the patient doesn't like his/her doctor's religious convictions, the patient can go somewhere else.

Not under your American style health insurance she couldn't.

Quote
This isn't a church-separation issue at all . . . at least as far as the patient is concerned.  It does involve the doctor's free exercise of religion.

Where in his religion does it say he is to deprive services to unmarried gay women? I'm not as well versed in religious dogma as you. Could you clarify the specific passage from the Bible, torah, or koran respectively.  

Quote
This is really a mountain out of a molehill.  Elective procedure.  Woman got what she wanted.  Three kids.  Shouldn't be a national (or even local) story.

One man's trash is another man's treasure, ...and one man's molehill is another woman's mountain.  ;)

w

drkaje

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2007, 03:28:08 PM »
Most of those guys would inseminate a bed-ridden geriatric for enough money.

Dos Equis

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2007, 03:32:28 PM »
Not under your American style health insurance she couldn't.

Where in his religion does it say he is to deprive services to unmarried gay women? I'm not as well versed in religious dogma as you. Could you clarify the specific passage from the Bible, torah, or koran respectively.  

One man's trash is another man's treasure, ...and one man's molehill is another woman's mountain.  ;)



1.  She got her elective procedure and now has three kids.    

2.  I have no idea precisely what this doctor's religious convictions are.  It doesn't really matter anyway.  It's about his conscience.  You or anyone else don't have to agree with his convictions.    

3.  Re mountain out of molehill, see no. 1.

  

24KT

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2007, 03:48:16 PM »
1.  She got her elective procedure and now has three kids.

At what additional and unecessary expense? He was the only physician covered by her insurance    

Quote
2.  I have no idea precisely what this doctor's religious convictions are.  It doesn't really matter anyway.  It's about his conscience.  You or anyone else don't have to agree with his convictions.

His conscience didn't seem to bother him when he was taking the money while treating her for 11 months.
His conscience shouldn't enter into anything. He was performing a procedure on a patient. That's like saying "My conscience prevents me from doing elective plastic surgery on this patient because... he's a bodybuilder, and we all know what great big closet homos they are. I could never lift the wrinkles from this man's face, or lift his lids knowing he might use his renewed appearance to seduce another man into that evil lifestyle.  

Quote
3.  Re mountain out of molehill, see no. 1.

 ::) It's the principal of equality and civil rights... a tremendous mountain to overcome if you're gay in America
 
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drkaje

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2007, 03:58:12 PM »
It's getting pretty deep in here.

This is obviously a sensitive issue for someone. ::)

Dos Equis

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2007, 04:07:05 PM »
At what additional and unecessary expense? He was the only physician covered by her insurance    

His conscience didn't seem to bother him when he was taking the money while treating her for 11 months.
His conscience shouldn't enter into anything. He was performing a procedure on a patient. That's like saying "My conscience prevents me from doing elective plastic surgery on this patient because... he's a bodybuilder, and we all know what great big closet homos they are. I could never lift the wrinkles from this man's face, or lift his lids knowing he might use his renewed appearance to seduce another man into that evil lifestyle.   

 ::) It's the principal of equality and civil rights... a tremendous mountain to overcome if you're gay in America
 
They did, ...but Moley took care of it.

uh-huh... are we getting skeered yet?  :)

1.  Was there an additional expense?  I doubt her insurance covered one doctor. 

2.  A doctor should always be able to perform or not perform an elective procedure based on his or her conscience.  First Amendment guarantees the free exercise of religion (under some conditions).  He/she can just refer the patient elsewhere.  Not a big deal.   

3.  Doesn't sound like this has anything to do with civil rights.  She didn't have a civil or constitutional right to force this doctor to perform an elective procedure, rather than refer her to someone who helped her have three kids.


Dos Equis

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2007, 04:28:05 PM »
We're probably reading too much into her zeal to defend the aged's reproductive rights.  :)

Careful now.  We have to play nice on this board.   :)  I can already see Jag's finger headed for the "report to moderator" button . . . .  :D

That was a joke Jag. 

Deedee

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2007, 04:38:47 PM »
Careful now.  We have to play nice on this board.   :)  I can already see Jag's finger headed for the "report to moderator" button . . . .  :D

That was a joke Jag. 

Yes you do.  :) Please save all shitty replies to people (not aimed at you Beach or anyone in particular) for the other boards. Dr. J you seem quite passionate about your views on women and you have plenty of boards to make them known.  :) Try to see things from a woman's perspective here. Lost cause, but I'm waiting for a lift, so I guess I can spend time on Getbig for a few mins, asking for the impossible.  :)

Please save all discussions pertaining to anything that might involve religion or conscience (conscience that implies women are lesser, and/or should be fat) for other boards. Now I must go shopping.

I deleted a few antagonizing posts. Sorry.

24KT

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2007, 04:40:23 PM »
Quote from: drkaje link=topic=162423.msg2287905#msg2287905
We're probably reading too much into her zeal to defend the aged's reproductive rights.

I thought we were defending the reproductive rights of lesbians?
Don't be a smarty pants, the doctor didn't object to her age, he objectived to her sexual orientation.  


Careful now.  We have to play nice on this board.   :)  I can already see Jag's finger headed for the "report to moderator" button . . . .  :D

That was a joke Jag.  

Keep watching my finger
w

drkaje

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2007, 04:54:28 PM »
Yes you do.  :) Please save all shitty replies to people (not aimed at you Beach or anyone in particular) for the other boards. Dr. J you seem quite passionate about your views on women and you have plenty of boards to make them known.  :) Try to see things from a woman's perspective here. Lost cause, but I'm waiting for a lift, so I guess I can spend time on Getbig for a few mins, asking for the impossible.  :)

Please save all discussions pertaining to anything that might involve religion or conscience (conscience that implies women are lesser, and/or should be fat) for other boards. Now I must go shopping.

I deleted a few antagonizing posts. Sorry.

Someone should really post the health stats (as adults) for children born to mothers over 35. That would put the discussion into perspective. Just because someone can afford to do something doesn't make it a right.

I love lesbians!!!

~flower~

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2007, 05:42:48 PM »
~Flower~,
The problem in this case was the doctor's disapproval NOT of the procedure, ...but rather of the patient.

It's like saying I don't have a problem doing boob jobs, ...I just won't do them on Asians.

It's as discriminatory as a bank telling you I won't give you a loan to buy a house because you're a single woman.
You should instead find yourself a husband, ...then after you're married, ...they'd be happy to give you that mortgage so you can buy the house.

To quote an intelligent poster on this board:

"Your body, Your choice!"   ;)

It's not the procedure it is the result of the procedure.  The doctor does not believe that same sex couples should have children, therefore he does not want to be part of them getting one.

  His body, his choice!!!        ;D

Butterbean

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2007, 06:19:18 PM »
Otherwise pack up and move elsewhere to form your own society where you're free to practice what you want... just like the Morons did when moving to what is now present day Utah.

Was this a Freudian slip?  Justice for the Morons!! >:(















 ;D :-*
R

24KT

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2007, 06:27:34 PM »
Was this a Freudian slip?  Justice for the Morons!! >:(

 ;D :-*

{looking about innocently and coyly}

why whatever do you mean? Freudian slip... typo... Justice... salutation to Al-Gebra...?  I'll let you decide.  ;)
w

Deedee

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2007, 06:59:50 PM »
Did I not say, and isn't it in the rules... no political crap allowed.  Especially from people who say they are against abortion on one board and then ask how they can get prostitutes on another.  >:(

BayGBM

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2008, 12:47:39 PM »
California doctors can't refuse fertility treatments to lesbians on religious grounds, court rules
The California Supreme Court decides unanimously that a state antidiscrimination law trumps the religious freedom rights of doctors.
By Maura Dolan
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

11:07 AM PDT, August 18, 2008

The California Supreme Court ruled today that physicians may not refuse to provide fertility treatments to lesbians because of religious beliefs.

In a unanimous decision, the state high court said a state antidiscrimination law trumps the religious freedom rights of doctors in such cases.

If doctors do not want to help lesbians have children, they must refuse to perform the procedures for all patients, the court said.

The ruling stemmed from a lawsuit by a San Diego woman who contended that Christian doctors at a clinic told her they could not help her become pregnant because their religion condemned having children outside of opposite-sex marriages.

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Re: Doctors accused of using faith to violate gay bias laws
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2008, 02:49:08 PM »
The doctors were discrimizing, being selective can only be done when there's a valid and objective reason to exclude someone, like denying a blind man a job as referee.
There's no evidence that gay couples make worse parents, the doctors convictions may be truthful, but that does make them intolerant (in the philosophical sense: 'tolerare' means 'to bear' 'undergo', they should bear the 'burden' of helping a gay woman get pregnant). We seem to have lost the real notion of tolerance, these days we confuse tolerance with disinterest. You can't tolerate that which doesn't bother you, but that's a side-track.

The unwillingness to treat the woman has no moral foundation, falling back on religion means that (with many religions around) people would have a lot of arbitrary motives at their disposal to refuse clients. Morality is a check of reason first, morality is religion/culture free, saying otherwise would lead to a very slippery path of subjectivism, which would ultimately mean that morality and ethics can't be advanced (which we clearly did, we abolished slavery, women got equal rights etc.).