Author Topic: Progress in Iraq  (Read 5805 times)

headhuntersix

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2007, 09:06:55 AM »
I agree...but we're there now. So we're doing the right thing by helping these people. There was no real infrastructure to begin with so we are building the country. Further, a littel good will in that region is nota bad thing.
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Decker

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2007, 09:18:57 AM »
Let me make it clear, Afghanistan is much better after the Taliban, much better. While we found no WMD's in Iraq, there were plenty of of AQ agents, including the guy who ran the whole 911 show, hiding in that country. We had every right to go after that guy and we made it clear that the Taliban should comply and turn him over. They did not, so they went to. No amount of legal gobbeldigook, will explain to a 9 year old girl that she's better off under international law and the Taliban, then the Bush doctrine and Karzi. They needed to go and they went. While i don't have alot of compassion for these people because they will stab u in the back ina minute, the kids want to be educated and get out of this  cycle.
I understand your point.  But we are a nation of laws or we are not.  It is not gobbledygook.  We had every right to pursue AQ but that must be done according to legal procedure that the US has agreed to follow.  We don't have the right to attack whoever the hell we please even if it's for an ostensibly good reason.

There are ways to do this and ways not to do it.  Bush chose the wrong way again.

I'm not going to argue that things are much better in Afg thanks the US efforts.  I know one things for certain.  There 7500 dead Afg citizens and their families that are not better off for the invasion.

Decker

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2007, 09:22:01 AM »


What about Bin Laden? I thought he perpetrated 9/11?  Why didn't we get him? That's where this whole thing lost credibility with me.

I don't agree with regime change and nation building...bush mentioned that during his run up to president that the us wouldn't be in the business of nation building..yet, 7 years later..that's exactly what we are doing...just like the cheney video where he stated that invading iraq would be a quagmire--he was right, yet he and his admin were the ones who invaded...i'm not into all the legal stuff..just common sense stuff for me.  Sure, we're helping out some afghani kid who was oppressed under the taliban but is it the united states' job to be the world police force? isn't that what the UN was supposed to do? We agreed to it, bought into the principles but don't always follow what we bought into? it doesn't make sense to me...If we are the world's police force then why haven't we invaded north korea and free them from oppression, or darfur, or somalia (oops, did that, didn't work) mexico (who has one of the most corrupt governments on the planet)---
Common sense.  It assumes common experience.  It is supposed to reduce the complex in life to obvious choices.

I think you are a lot smarter than to think that procedural complexity in international relations is devoid of some sort of common sense.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything you've said.

headhuntersix

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2007, 09:27:05 AM »
I understand your point.  But we are a nation of laws or we are not.  It is not gobbledygook.  We had every right to pursue AQ but that must be done according to legal procedure that the US has agreed to follow.  We don't have the right to attack whoever the hell we please even if it's for an ostensibly good reason.

There are ways to do this and ways not to do it.  Bush chose the wrong way again.

I'm not going to argue that things are much better in Afg thanks the US efforts.  I know one things for certain.  There 7500 dead Afg citizens and their families that are not better off for the invasion.

Dude, your wrong, alot more folks would be dead at this point if we were'nt there. Life is very cheap in that country. I spent alot of time all over the place. They are, by and large happy to have us there.
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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2007, 10:24:55 AM »
Dude, your wrong, alot more folks would be dead at this point if we were'nt there. Life is very cheap in that country. I spent alot of time all over the place. They are, by and large happy to have us there.

And what was the point of the entire exercise, since after ousting the taleban government, you are now negotiating with them to form part of the government? how does that advance Afghan reform if you are calling for the very oppressors of afghan society to make up her government? Does that not mean that all those who died fighting the Taliban died in vain? Or is that all irrelevant, and things can go back to business as usual with the Taliban in Afghanistan, ...now that an oil exec has been installed as head of state, and the pipeline is back in the hands of US construction firms. Afterall, we all know it wasn't like the pipeline was never going to be built. Even under the Taliban it was going to be built, ...except by an Argentinian firm, and not a US one.
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headhuntersix

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2007, 11:44:06 AM »
Ever set foot inside that country, ever see what good we have done for the people......silence....e nough with your Lib drivel.
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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2007, 11:47:49 AM »
And what was the point of the entire exercise, since after ousting the taleban government, you are now negotiating with them to form part of the government?

To eliminate Afghanistan as a terrorist training ground for Al Qaeda, a haven for Bin Laden, and a launching pad for attacks against Americans on American soil. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2007, 11:50:01 AM »
Ever set foot inside that country, ever see what good we have done for the people......silence....e nough with your Lib drivel.

Yep. 

headhuntersix

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2007, 11:51:05 AM »
Eloquent as ever my good man.  ;D
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rockyfortune

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2007, 11:53:11 AM »
To eliminate Afghanistan as a terrorist training ground for Al Qaeda, a haven for Bin Laden, and a launching pad for attacks against Americans on American soil. 



ok..i'll bite...we didn't get OBL...and how does eliminating one training ground--sorta kinda---see because the recent stuff that has been published is that al qaeda is as strong as it was since 9/11---but back to my point--how does clearing out ONLY afghanistan solve the problem of terrorist training grounds when the world knows that afghanistan isn't the only training ground...iran, syria, chechnya, all have been havens for muslim extremists, no? so we whacked out afghanistan but what about the rest?  
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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2007, 11:58:48 AM »
Eloquent as ever my good man.  ;D

You just continue to speak the truth mang.   ;D

Hey I was at Schofield Barracks yesterday and they have a new monument in front of the HQ building.  It's four life sized soldier's, one each from the current war, Vietnam, Korean War, and WWII.  They're all facing a pair of boots, upside down rifle, and headgear.  Gave me chicken skin.  Beautiful. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2007, 12:02:03 PM »


ok..i'll bite...we didn't get OBL...and how does eliminating one training ground--sorta kinda---see because the recent stuff that has been published is that al qaeda is as strong as it was since 9/11---but back to my point--how does clearing out ONLY afghanistan solve the problem of terrorist training grounds when the world knows that afghanistan isn't the only training ground...iran, syria, chechnya, all have been havens for muslim extremists, no? so we whacked out afghanistan but what about the rest?  

We were attacked by OBL and terrorists based in Afghanistan.  Because of our invasion, OBL is no longer being hosted by a country and being allowed to use that country as a terrorist training ground.  He's hiding in a cave or dead or living in a hole in the ground (like Saddam did).

The war on terror will probably never end, but we made great strides by wiping out the base responsible for 911.   



rockyfortune

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2007, 12:10:58 PM »
We were attacked by OBL and terrorists based in Afghanistan.  Because of our invasion, OBL is no longer being hosted by a country and being allowed to use that country as a terrorist training ground.  He's hiding in a cave or dead or living in a hole in the ground (like Saddam did).

The war on terror will probably never end, but we made great strides by wiping out the base responsible for 911.   





what about places like iran, syria, chechnya...even saudi arabia...where most of the 19 hijackers came from...ok, i'll give you afghanistan..but what did iraq have to do with 9/11....see what i'm saying here..you can go on and on but you can't wage a military war forever---and you can't invade everyone...and if there are still countries like those just mentioned you better be willing to wipe them completely off the fucking planet and stop pussy-footing around with them.  i don't see the great strides when i see stuff like this....


U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded that al-Qaeda has rebuilt its operating capability to a level not seen since just before the Sept. 11 attacks, the Associated Press has learned.
The conclusion suggests that the group that launched the most devastating terror attack on the United States has been able to regroup along the Afghan-Pakistani border despite nearly six years of bombings, war, and other tactics aimed at crippling it.

Still, numerous government officials say they know of no specific, credible threat of a new attack on U.S. soil.

A counterterrorism official familiar with a five-page summary of the new government threat assessment called it a stark appraisal to be discussed at the White House today as part of a broader meeting on a forthcoming National Intelligence Estimate.

The official and others spoke on condition of anonymity because the secret report remains classified.

The document, produced by counterterrorism analysts, focuses on the terror group's haven in Pakistan and makes a range of observations about the threat posed to the United States and allies, officials said.

Al-Qaeda is "considerably operationally stronger than a year ago" and has "regrouped to an extent not seen since 2001," the official said, paraphrasing the report's conclusions. "They are showing greater and greater ability to plan attacks in Europe and the United States."

The group also has created "the most robust training program since 2001, with an interest in using European operatives," the official quoted the report as saying.

At the same time, the official said, the report speaks of "significant gaps in intelligence" so U.S. authorities might be ignorant of potential or planned attacks.

John Kringen, who heads the CIA's analysis directorate, echoed the concerns about al-Qaeda's resurgence during testimony and conversations with reporters at a House Armed Services Committee hearing yesterday.

"They seem to be fairly well settled into the safe haven and the ungoverned spaces of Pakistan," Kringen testified. "We see more training. We see more money. We see more communications. We see that activity rising."

The threat assessment comes as the 16 U.S. intelligence agencies prepare a National Intelligence Estimate focusing on threats to the United States. Kringen and aides to National Intelligence Director Mike McConnell would not comment on the details of that analysis.

"Preparation of the estimate is not a response to any specific threat," McConnell's spokesman, Ross Feinstein, said, adding that it would be ready for distribution this summer.

Counterterrorism officials have been increasingly concerned about al-Qaeda's recent operations. This week, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said he had a "gut feeling" that the United States faced a heightened risk of attack this summer.

The Bush administration has repeatedly cited al-Qaeda as a key justification for continuing the fight in Iraq.

The findings come as Capitol Hill support for the war is eroding and the administration is struggling to defend its decision for a military buildup in Iraq.

The threat assessment says that al-Qaeda stepped up efforts to "improve its core operational capability" in late 2004 but did not succeed until December 2006 after the Pakistani government signed a peace agreement with tribal leaders that effectively removed government military presence from the northwest frontier with Afghanistan.

The agreement allows Taliban and al-Qaeda operatives to move across the border with impunity and establish and run training centers, the report says, according to the counterterrorism official.

It also says that al-Qaeda was particularly interested in building up the numbers in its middle ranks, or operational positions, so there is not as great a lag in attacks when such people are killed.

The counterterrorism official said the

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Dos Equis

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2007, 12:20:19 PM »

what about places like iran, syria, chechnya...even saudi arabia...where most of the 19 hijackers came from...ok, i'll give you afghanistan..but what did iraq have to do with 9/11....see what i'm saying here..you can go on and on but you can't wage a military war forever---and you can't invade everyone...and if there are still countries like those just mentioned you better be willing to wipe them completely off the fucking planet and stop pussy-footing around with them.  i don't see the great strides when i see stuff like this....


I was only talking about Afghanistan, because I was responding to Jag's comment:

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Quote from: jaguarenterprises on Today at 10:24:55 AM
And what was the point of the entire exercise, since after ousting the taleban government, you are now negotiating with them to form part of the government?

But regarding the other countries you mentioned, we need to fight terrorism wherever the terrorists are located, both here and abroad.  And as I mentioned, the war on terror will likely never end.  We'll never completely eliminate those animals.  There will be progress and setbacks, victories and losses.  I'll leave it to our military brethren like Headhunter to figure out how best to combat the crazies.   

headhuntersix

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2007, 12:32:46 PM »
Area's like Chechnya were largely ignored by the West. I think they knew it was a very bad thing militarily. You had a modern army almost stopped cold by a bunch of guys with RPG's. I reallly studied this war hard. there is not alot written but its pretty damm interesting. One point is that after the Russians decided to can the Western approach to collateral damage and go into Grosni full force, they still had major problems.Certains things about our campaign in Iraq and the Russian experience in Chechnya are very similar. Our command and control is much better, as well as our troops but some things are the same. Its hard to move armor in urban areas. The Russians found that ouit the hard way with teams of RPG armed nutbags, using cell phones to coordinate attacks against Russina Armor. they would tag tream and isolate one tank and blow it to shit. Its harder to do that to us, but they dveloped IEds etc. Many folks who we face in Iraq were fighting the Russians.  The Russians did do some cool things. They designed small hyperbaric or fuel air explosives to use in street to street fighting. They also dug out old ww2 flamethrowers. I think I'd rather get gang rapped then face flamethrowers...maybe :'(
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Decker

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2007, 06:35:30 AM »
....But regarding the other countries you mentioned, we need to fight terrorism wherever the terrorists are located, both here and abroad.  And as I mentioned, the war on terror will likely never end.  We'll never completely eliminate those animals.  There will be progress and setbacks, victories and losses.  I'll leave it to our military brethren like Headhunter to figure out how best to combat the crazies.   

The war on terror will never end b/c anybody can be a terrorist.  Terrorist tactics live forever, groups using those tactics do not.

The military is not equipped to take on terrorism in the 4 corners of the planet.  It can't even manage Afghanistan and Iraq simultaneously.  You have to admit that Beach Bum.

Use of the military for invading any and every country that the US claims to harbor terrorists will bankrupt the US financially and morally.  It's an unsustainable strategy. 

Police work and international cooperation are the best ways to go.

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2007, 11:00:09 AM »
The war on terror will never end b/c anybody can be a terrorist.  Terrorist tactics live forever, groups using those tactics do not.

The military is not equipped to take on terrorism in the 4 corners of the planet.  It can't even manage Afghanistan and Iraq simultaneously.  You have to admit that Beach Bum.

Use of the military for invading any and every country that the US claims to harbor terrorists will bankrupt the US financially and morally.  It's an unsustainable strategy. 

Police work and international cooperation are the best ways to go.

Yes anyone can be a terrorist.  Part of the problem is they don't have a visible base (anymore), are very fluid, hide, and stay underground until they attack.  They're also nuts.  Those are the primary reasons we'll always have to fight them IMO. 

We did just fine in Afghanistan.  "Mission Accomplished" as far as I'm concerned.  We achieved our primary objectives in Iraq too.  I do agree we have not managed the war in Iraq properly.  That isn't because we cannot, it's because we made a tactical error at the onset by not sending in a large enough force and by keeping an imbecile in charge for too long (Rumsfeld). 

We really have no choice but to fight terrorism everywhere.

I'm not sure what you mean by "police work"?  If we know there is a terror group in, say, Argentina  :) that is a threat to the U.S., who do we send to wipe them out?  I'd think it would have to be the military. 

rockyfortune

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2007, 11:07:36 AM »
Yes anyone can be a terrorist.  Part of the problem is they don't have a visible base (anymore), are very fluid, hide, and stay underground until they attack.  They're also nuts.  Those are the primary reasons we'll always have to fight them IMO. 

We did just fine in Afghanistan.  "Mission Accomplished" as far as I'm concerned.  We achieved our primary objectives in Iraq too.  I do agree we have not managed the war in Iraq properly.  That isn't because we cannot, it's because we made a tactical error at the onset by not sending in a large enough force and by keeping an imbecile in charge for too long (Rumsfeld). 

We really have no choice but to fight terrorism everywhere.

I'm not sure what you mean by "police work"?  If we know there is a terror group in, say, Argentina  :) that is a threat to the U.S., who do we send to wipe them out?  I'd think it would have to be the military. 



i'm not sure anything was accomplished in afghanistan...if you read the article above al qaeda is as strong as ever in the afghan-pakistani border...
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Dos Equis

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2007, 11:19:48 AM »

i'm not sure anything was accomplished in afghanistan...if you read the article above al qaeda is as strong as ever in the afghan-pakistani border...

I'm sure.  Before we invaded, a country played host to the world's most notorious terrorist.  That's not the case anymore.  That's a major accomplishment. 

I'm concerned about the things discussed in the article, but it doesn't say they are as strong as ever.  It says Al-Qaeda is "considerably operationally stronger than a year ago" and has "regrouped to an extent not seen since 2001," the official said, paraphrasing the report's conclusions.

This tells me our fight is not over.  We will be fighting those cockroaches till Jesus comes. 

rockyfortune

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2007, 11:33:47 AM »
then how is the mission accomplished against al qaeda if they are operationally at levels of six years ago...that tells me they are as strong as they have been in six years, no? 
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Decker

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2007, 11:44:36 AM »
I'm sure.  Before we invaded, a country played host to the world's most notorious terrorist.  That's not the case anymore.  That's a major accomplishment. 

... 
I think Pakistan or Saudi Arabia holds that mantle now of most notorious terrorist state.  I would not hold my breath waiting for the US to invade either country. 

Police work is just that--detective work...Infiltrating these criminal organizations to get the jump on them.  Handle these terrorists the way we handle other organized crime syndicates.  Go after the financing.  That's eminently more sensible and efficient than trying to bomb or geurilla fight them into submission.  The US cannot simply does not have the resources to continue a full military assault of every country with ties to terrorist orgs.

The problem with that is that the financial institutions that launder money for US interests http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/25/news2.shtml want that law gutted.  Offshore accounts suddenly becoming accountable to inspection would be a problem for a lot of the movers 'n shakers here in the US.

Have a great weekend my friend!


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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2007, 11:53:45 AM »
then how is the mission accomplished against al qaeda if they are operationally at levels of six years ago...that tells me they are as strong as they have been in six years, no? 

Because they are no longer being hosted by a country and allowed to use that country as their operational base. (We're kinda going in circles.)  The article says they "regrouped to an extent not seen since 2001."  That doesn't mean they are as strong now as they were in 2001.  I don't think they can be, because Afghanistan is no longer their host. 

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2007, 11:57:00 AM »
I think Pakistan or Saudi Arabia holds that mantle now of most notorious terrorist state.  I would not hold my breath waiting for the US to invade either country. 

Police work is just that--detective work...Infiltrating these criminal organizations to get the jump on them.  Handle these terrorists the way we handle other organized crime syndicates.  Go after the financing.  That's eminently more sensible and efficient than trying to bomb or geurilla fight them into submission.  The US cannot simply does not have the resources to continue a full military assault of every country with ties to terrorist orgs.

The problem with that is that the financial institutions that launder money for US interests http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/25/news2.shtml want that law gutted.  Offshore accounts suddenly becoming accountable to inspection would be a problem for a lot of the movers 'n shakers here in the US.

Have a great weekend my friend!



I agree with your definition of police work and that we should use those methods to fight terrorism.  We also cannot foreclose military action, like Operation Enduring Freedom.  We really had no choice in Afghanistan.  We had to take those guys out. 

Have a great weekend too.  I know I will.  My hammock is calling . . .   :)

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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2007, 05:21:56 PM »
I agree with your definition of police work and that we should use those methods to fight terrorism.  We also cannot foreclose military action, like Operation Enduring Freedom.  We really had no choice in Afghanistan.  We had to take those guys out. 

So why are Republicans calling for them to form part of the Government in Afghanistan?

Quote
Have a great weekend too.  I know I will.  My hammock is calling . . .   :)

We've got hammock weather too, ...at least for the next week.  :)
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Re: Progress in Iraq
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2007, 12:27:43 AM »
So why are Republicans calling for them to form part of the Government in Afghanistan?

We've got hammock weather too, ...at least for the next week.  :)

No one is calling for OBL and Al Qaeda to be part of the government in Afghanistan. 

Current temperature is about 75-79.  Tomorrow's forecast is about 89 (much cooler in between my trees at Kailua beach, where I have to wear a jacket). 

What's Canadian hammock weather?  Fifty degrees?  :P