How American Muslims could become as alienated as European Muslims.

[Al Doggity]

The NYPD released a "study" today that, in essence, attempted to profile New York's muslim community. The Muslim population in NY has exploded in the last two decades and, as everyone knows,  it is of great interest to law enforcement officials. The report came to several conclusions, some in direct contradiction with others.

It reminded me of this article, which had some interesting observations:

Historically, the American Muslim immigrant population falls into a higher socioeconomic background than their European counterparts. But like Matin, the next generation of diversity visa winners and others are more similar to European Muslim immigrants. And many of the recent U.S. "terror plots" involve immigrants similar to European ones. While there might not be actual radicalization in the American Muslim community, there is a danger of increasing frustration leading to alienation. In June 2005, Hamid Hayat, a 23-year-old Pakistani-American farmhand with a sixth-grade education, was charged with attending an al-Qaida training camp in Pakistan and being a part of a terror cell in Lodi, Calif. Later that year, Tashnuba Hayder, a 16-year-old Bangladeshi girl who grew up in Queens, N.Y., was accused of being a suicide bomber—though she was ultimately only charged with immigration violations and deported. To the Muslim American community, these cases represented a witch hunt against young Muslims who were being targeted for their interest in Islam and who had limited education or socioeconomic means. They certainly did not demonstrate proof of "homegrown terrorism." Rather, they were symbols of the disenfranchisement or disillusionment of these young Muslims from the mainstream society. Hayder herself illustrated this tension when she told the New York Times, "The F.B.I. tried to say I didn't have a life—like, I wasn't the typical teenager." While the vast majority of Muslim youth are wondering how they can be civically minded Muslim Americans, the government seems to be stuck on the theme of the radicalization of Muslim American youth. Perhaps they have received too much training in Europe.

http://www.slate.com/id/2171071

[Camel Jockey]

Hate to say it, but they should stop the lottery visa nonsense.

I've noticed the freshly arrived immigrants, whether muslims or not, tend to be pretty uncivilized. Even people of my own background seem different. Very domian loyal and religious.

People have to understand that in poor nations(especially muslim nations), social structures are based on hierarchy.. The ones making it over here these days weren't anything special back home. They were of the lowest castes, income brackets or whatever.

I guess you were right, Al. 

[Hedgehog]

Agree with CJ.

Don't accept anymore immigrants than the country has capacity to accept. That is the general rule.

And rule #1, should always be to demand that an immigrant has a job secured.

Language rules are quite controversial, but I think they are necessary.

It's frightening that my English is better than many Americans in the ghettos, even Americans who are born in the USA.

[Camel Jockey]

Agree with CJ.

Don't accept anymore immigrants than the country has capacity to accept. That is the general rule.

And rule #1, should always be to demand that an immigrant has a job secured.

Language rules are quite controversial, but I think they are necessary.

It's frightening that my English is better than many Americans in the ghettos, even Americans who are born in the USA.

Your english is better than DA's.

But seriously.. It's like a taboo to be critical of anyone's language problems these days. It's racist to tell someone to learn english.

Another problem is that small communities have formed. Meaning that these immigrants don't really have to integrate into the culture like the immigrants before them. You could take a look at some immigrants that came 15-20 years ago, and now a lot of them are professionals with children in universities. They not only integrated, but also aspired to do something. The people coming over these days think driving a cab is the height of civilization, and are loyal to their culture and faith. They don't venture out of their communities much and don't care for the states at all. I come across them and find half of them to be idiots.

It's not just muslims, or asians. Hispanics too..

[JOHN MATRIX]

its just the ones who were born there and moving here that are perpetuating their culture, for the most part their american-born kids will assimilate, after 1-2 generations they will just be plain old americans.

[24KT]

its just the ones who were born there and moving here that are perpetuating their culture, for the most part their american-born kids will assimilate, after 1-2 generations they will just be plain old americans.

Even those who are born abroad will assimilate. It's simply a matter of time.
All immigrants regardless of their country of origin go through a period of sequestering themselves behind customs and habits that are comfortingly familiar. They always make the transition into other societies though. Delays to assimilation take place when assimilation is pre-maturely forced on them.

[Hedgehog]

Your english is better than DA's.

But seriously.. It's like a taboo to be critical of anyone's language problems these days. It's racist to tell someone to learn english.

Another problem is that small communities have formed. Meaning that these immigrants don't really have to integrate into the culture like the immigrants before them. You could take a look at some immigrants that came 15-20 years ago, and now a lot of them are professionals with children in universities. They not only integrated, but also aspired to do something. The people coming over these days think driving a cab is the height of civilization, and are loyal to their culture and faith. They don't venture out of their communities much and don't care for the states at all. I come across them and find half of them to be idiots.

It's not just muslims, or asians. Hispanics too..

In the USA, the biggest problem seems to be the Hispanic population actually.

That's not to say that problems with certain kinds of muslims won't become bigger, as that minority grows.

As it grows, the confidence within the group also grows, and the reluctance to give up the traditions, culture of the homeland becomes stronger. The language is an important key to keep that indentity.


Many people argue that immigrants should be helped to embrace their former national traditions. I think that's counter-productive.

Help them find their ways into their new country instead.

Arnold is right this time. Learn the language.

[Hedgehog]

Even those who are born abroad will assimilate. It's simply a matter of time.
All immigrants regardless of their country of origin go through a period of sequestering themselves behind customs and habits that are comfortingly familiar. They always make the transition into other societies though. Delays to assimilation take place when assimilation is pre-maturely forced on them.

They always make the transition?

Why then, are there honor killings in our civilized nations?

Eg, a person who had been living in Sweden for 15+ years, and still refused to learn proper Swedish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fadime_Sahindal

[Al Doggity]

Even those who are born abroad will assimilate. It's simply a matter of time.
All immigrants regardless of their country of origin go through a period of sequestering themselves behind customs and habits that are comfortingly familiar. They always make the transition into other societies though. Delays to assimilation take place when assimilation is pre-maturely forced on them.

I'm quoting you because this is a good response to Hedgehog's post.

Lack of assimilation is primarily a first generation immigrant thing. When you hear about these bilingual classes for Mexicans in LA, by and large, they aren't for children that were born here.


You don't really hear about honor killings in America that frequently? I guess she should correct herself and say 99.9% of the time.

[Bindare_Dundat]

Your english is better than DA's.

But seriously.. It's like a taboo to be critical of anyone's language problems these days. It's racist to tell someone to learn english.

Another problem is that small communities have formed. Meaning that these immigrants don't really have to integrate into the culture like the immigrants before them. You could take a look at some immigrants that came 15-20 years ago, and now a lot of them are professionals with children in universities. They not only integrated, but also aspired to do something. The people coming over these days think driving a cab is the height of civilization, and are loyal to their culture and faith. They don't venture out of their communities much and don't care for the states at all. I come across them and find half of them to be idiots.

It's not just muslims, or asians. Hispanics too..

This is so bang on.

I was labeled a racist when I suggested we shouldn't have Asian characters and Punjabi on bank machine screens. My point was it doesn't give that immigrant a reason to learn the language of the country he/she now calls home. Plus, no European immigrant had a choice to read their language in public area's, (bus stops, banks, other public signs, etc...), why should anyone else?

[24KT]

They always make the transition?

Given enough time, ...they usually do.

Why then, are there honor killings in our civilized nations?

Why are there murders committed by native born Swedes? Why are there murders in any society?

ie: A native born American, university educated, kills his pregnant wife and unborn son
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Peterson

or any one of the 197 Wiki pages of Americans convicted of murder?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Americans_convicted_of_m urder

[24KT]

This is so bang on.

I was labeled a racist when I suggested we shouldn't have Asian characters and Punjabi on bank machine screens. My point was it doesn't give that immigrant a reason to learn the language of the country he/she now calls home. Plus, no European immigrant had a choice to read their language in public area's, (bus stops, banks, other public signs, etc...), why should anyone else?

Have you considered the greater cost to society to have to sort out the ensuing confusion?
I'm sure people who complain about seeing other languages which essentially don't affect them, would be the first to scream about being held up in line at the bank because some immigrant thought it was the police station.

As to why no Europeans ever got to see their languages in public places, ...tell me, which nationality not fluent in english would have the hardest time figuring out these English words:

English - Police, Bank
Italian - Polizia, Banca
Portuguese - Polícias, Banco
Spanish - Policía, Banco
French - Police, Banque
Chinese - 警方, 银行
Japanese - 警察, 銀行
Russian - полиция, банка
Arabic - الشرطة ,البنك

Now if I were travelling to or emigrating to England, Italy, Portugal, Spain or France, I probably wouldn't be all that concerned about being able to read English on signs and public buildings, ...but I sure as heck would need them in China, Japan, Russia, or Dubai. Sometimes, it just makes better sense, and is far less expensive to assist & facilitate an immigrant's assimilation into the mainstream.

[beatmaster]

slowly, NY city will lose his identity...... so the rest of America, government needs to stop this...... soon

[24KT]

slowly, NY city will lose his identity...... so the rest of America, government needs to stop this...... soon

A city's identity is always changing, evolving, and re-inventing itself to reflect it's constantly evolving self.
if not, it's image remains frozen in time, a mere myth bearing no resemblance to it's actual identity.
A very false impression like a mirage. A mirage can be your worst nightmare when dying of thirst.

[youandme]

Even those who are born abroad will assimilate. It's simply a matter of time.
All immigrants regardless of their country of origin go through a period of sequestering themselves behind customs and habits that are comfortingly familiar. They always make the transition into other societies though. Delays to assimilation take place when assimilation is pre-maturely forced on them.

what?
I just got back from staying with a sunni muslim family, they will do whatever possible to NOT assimilate. The 2nd night I stayed the table discussion was the possible marriage of a 2nd cousin to a American non muslim women, everyone was against it.

You don't know what your talking about on this one. Needless to say I ended up writing as much of this down as I could for another research paper.

[24KT]

what?
I just got back from staying with a sunni muslim family, they will do whatever possible to NOT assimilate. The 2nd night I stayed the table discussion was the possible marriage of a 2nd cousin to a American non muslim women, everyone was against it.

You don't know what your talking about on this one. Needless to say I ended up writing as much of this down as I could for another research paper.

So 'cause 1 family is against a possible marriage of a 2nd cousin it's proof that all Muslims refuse to assimilate?
Maybe they're against it because the girl is a slut, ...or perhaps she's immature, ...or perhaps she not right for him,
...or perhaps they are nosy busy bodies who like to poke their noses into someone else's business?

Here's a recording of an American guy who was dead set against his daughter DATING another American.
Would you say this is a family that refuses to assimilate into mainstream Americana too? Listen to this

[headhuntersix]

We cater way to much to these people. If your coming here they should have a list of things we should consider before allowing them to enter. Engineers, doctors, scientists etc...those are thgings we can use. Even skilled laborers, such as masons etc. Anything that will contribute positively. And we need to cap or delay alllowing family members to enter until the immigrant can support them. I don't agree with Jag, new immigrants stay cocooned in their neighborhoods and don't assimilate. As far as her language tree...if I'm in one of those countries...anybody in a uniform with an AK is in charge. Its pretty easy to tell.

[24KT]

We cater way to much to these people. If your coming here they should have a list of things we should consider before allowing them to enter. Engineers, doctors, scientists etc...those are thgings we can use. Even skilled laborers, such as masons etc. Anything that will contribute positively. And we need to cap or delay alllowing family members to enter until the immigrant can support them.

I don't disagree with that, ...although I'd take a bricklayer over a mason. There's already too many of those. 

I don't agree with Jag, new immigrants stay cocooned in their neighborhoods and don't assimilate. As far as her language tree...if I'm in one of those countries...anybody in a uniform with an AK is in charge. Its pretty easy to tell.

Your mindset is as transparent as glass isn't it? When are you going to adjust to civilian life?
The question wasn't who's in charge? The question was how does one differentiate between a police station & a bank?

[youandme]

So 'cause 1 family is against a possible marriage of a 2nd cousin it's proof that all Muslims refuse to assimilate?
Maybe they're against it because the girl is a slut, ...or perhaps she's immature, ...or perhaps she not right for him,
...or perhaps they are nosy busy bodies who like to poke their noses into someone else's business?

Here's a recording of an American guy who was dead set against his daughter DATING another American.
Would you say this is a family that refuses to assimilate into mainstream Americana too? Listen to this

Hmm actually it was not just 1 family, it was 5. And when a marriage like this happens it is the whole family's business.

Yeah that would be a case of non assimilation, as well.

Jag have you traveled outside of Canada in the last 10 years? Religious groups are becoming more dormant and secular as time passes.

[Camel Jockey]

I don't disagree with that, ...although I'd take a bricklayer over a mason. There's already too many of those. 
 

hahahaha Just made my day. 

[headhuntersix]

How many 3rd world countries have u been too? It would seem like you're well traveled...I can pretty much tell who has the cash and who has the guns..your kidding me right.

[24KT]

Hmm actually it was not just 1 family, it was 5. And when a marriage like this happens it is the whole family's business.

Yeah that would be a case of non assimilation, as well.

How is that non-assimilation? Did you hear those accents? Those weren't Israeli accents.
you can't pick up something like that, those were born and bred New Yawkers.

Jag have you traveled outside of Canada in the last 10 years? Religious groups are becoming more dormant and secular as time passes.

yes many times.

[24KT]

How many 3rd world countries have u been too? It would seem like you're well traveled...I can pretty much tell who has the cash and who has the guns..your kidding me right.

Again, you avoid the question. We're not talking about 3^rd world countries, we're talking about America,
and the question is how does a foreigner differentiate between a bank and a police station?

Have you been to Westlake Village CA? That is one community where pretty much every building looks the same.

[headhuntersix]

Yeah but I speak the language of my country. If i moved to France I'd learn French, If i moved to China I'd learn chinese. Learn the language if u want to live here. I'm not catering to every border jumper who decides to get a piece of the pie.

[JOHN MATRIX]

the muslim immigration thing is a relatively new thing. lol when all the irish, italians, various other europeans etc were moving in, they stayed in their ghettos and communities for a while, kept their own language and all, and people back then were probably saying the same thing DAMN WOPS WHY DID WE LET THEM IN THEY WONT AND CANT ASSIMILATE and look now they are all blended in, in 50-100 years most of the staunch first-generation muslim immigrants will be dead and their grandkids will be talking english and watching the NFL and giving blowjobs to negros.