the knock on nautilis

[funk51]

the knock on arthur jones and his machines has always been show me one champion bb-er who ever trained exclusively on machines, that was the case in the 70's as well as today. arthur brought many of the top men to fla to try out his machines arnold ,franco c, casey viator, boyer coe, sergio oliva., but they were already established stars.

[pumpster]

First of all Nautilus and machines such as Hammer Strength created by Jones' son are a major part of BBs routines now.

Secondly, Oliva said the machines were more effective than weights.

Not a replacement for weights but used in combination they're sometimes more effective depending on the exercise. Examples in which a machine's more effective include pullovers, hack machines, calf machines, etc. IMO a well-designed leverage pulldown hits the lats more intensely than anything, is comparable yet different to chins.

[trab]

Cool old pic of Casey......

Chris Cormier said something like, "There aint no way you can hang 4 plates on each side of a hammer strength machine, do a bunch of reps and tell me you aint gonna grow from that. Please."

We lift and sooner or later we get injuries. Some of us also do work thats physiclay demanding.
Anything that keeps you lifting, and saves on joint wear and tear is a good thing.

To a large degree resistance is resistance. Muscle dont know. Actually a lot of ungainly things the strong men train with are much harder to use. Hell, Barbells and dumbell and machines are made to be as easy as possible to work with. Try loading/ unloading trucks full of 100lb bags of Blasting sand,
 or 50 gal. Barrels full of sheet rock texture. You'll find a bunch of muscles you never felt work from any Gym workout.

Got to vary the workouts. esp those that been at it a long time.

[funk51]

i'm not knocking machines , i'm just saying how years ago bodybuilders tried to downplay their importance, i believe they have a place in everyone's routine but not exclusively.

[Figo]

Nothing wrong with machines.

But no champion has trained exclusively with machines ala nautilus, and used only the extreme abbreviated training. The aforementioned ones trained volume and with mixed apparatus and had created a champion status way before meeting Jones.

[trab]

Nothing wrong with machines.

But no champion has trained exclusively with machines ala nautilus, and used only the extreme abbreviated training. The aforementioned ones trained volume and with mixed apparatus and had created a champion status way before meeting Jones.

Right... One thing that gets me is, Lots of real Advanced BBers start to train super strict as their development peaks, then they advocate that method entirely. They forget that cheat swing'n & Heaving barbells and dumbells that were  too heavy built them the base of muscle they have. Theres a point of diminishing returns (Injury) w/ that method, but fact is most every big strong guy started out doing that. And it produced results.

Machines are too strict for that purpose.
But they sure are good for lots of stuff, esp work around injury. I wish I had a collection of Hammer Strength in my home Gym for sure..

[Hedgehog]

I wish I had a plate loaded Nautilus pullover machine...

Could it be the most legendary machine of all times?

[pumpster]

I wish I had a plate loaded Nautilus pullover machine...

Could it be the most legendary machine of all times?

Exactly why no one can put weights or machines ahead of the other. This and some other pullover machines are textbook examples of machines that are more effective than weights in some cases.

[knny187]

I agree...there's a few examples of a machine that can stimulate the muscles exercised better than free weights

[kimo]

good to keep enthusiasm . the kidney shape cam was said to work the mucle better

[jpm101]

Just my view:  Not many of the BB'ing elite would give up the big endorsement contracts (supplements, exercise equipment, books, articles etc) and being on the covers of the big glossy magazines (Weider's, as a prime example) to commit to Art Jones and his machines. All about money, and the big money was from the established company's.  Endorsing the Nautilus line might be financial  suicide for most. Casey Viator understood this after awhile.

Nautilus are superior muscle building machines, but for that total finished Pro looks other equipment (free weights, cables, etc) will be required.  ANd other workout styles.

The Nautilus cam was the foundation of Art Jones machines. It called into play the whole three phase contraction of a muscle (positive & negative), with near max effort on each phase. Free weights, or anything else, can not do that. Visiting physical rehab medical centers, there will be on view Nautilus (and Nautilus type) equipment.

Best Nautilus equipment I ever used was the original designed pullover machine, with the pulldown/lat bar in front. I'm not that tall (6'2+) but took a little effort to squeeze into it.  The delt machine was also outstanding, as were the hip/back machines. Tend to believe that taller than me guy's will have a problem getting into some of those machine positions.Good Luck

[Montague]

JPM:
How would you rate the delt and pullover machines from the original Nautilus line with the plate-loaded ones that Hammer Strength makes today?

[jpm101]

Montague: Referring to the Hammer Strength two handled, slight incline style machine, I believe? Or another model of the vast, vast, vast network of Hammer Strength designs?

One of the differences is  the cam gear, on the Nautilus. The other difference is the Nautilus have a lateral raise device which is the main reason for this type delt machine. The lateral raise is done first, than the overhead pressing (two handles). It follows the concept of the Pre-exhause protocol. Which most guy's ,who come to GB, seem to having a confusing problem with.

The main advantage of the lateral raise Nautilus device is  that the focal point is on the elbows. This takes full advantage of the correct position of having the work load when it belongs, at the most effective point for doing lateral raises. Same concept with the Nautilus Pullover machine, where the elbows take the highest percentage of the work load. And in return, the lats are worked to the extreme. Chins, pulldowns, rows, etc will never ever come close to the way the lat muscles are worked with Nautilus. Perhaps with the proper Pre-exhause system, the chances can be improved.

Getting back to the original question, in my view only; the Hammer Strength (in whatever form) is a very poor choice /design compared to the Nautilus shoulder/delt training devise. Good Luck.

[Montague]

Montague: Referring to the Hammer Strength two handled, slight incline style machine, I believe? Or another model of the vast, vast, vast network of Hammer Strength designs?

One of the differences is  the cam gear, on the Nautilus. The other difference is the Nautilus have a lateral raise device which is the main reason for this type delt machine. The lateral raise is done first, than the overhead pressing (two handles). It follows the concept of the Pre-exhause protocol. Which most guy's ,who come to GB, seem to having a confusing problem with.

The main advantage of the lateral raise Nautilus device is  that the focal point is on the elbows. This takes full advantage of the correct position of having the work load when it belongs, at the most effective point for doing lateral raises. Same concept with the Nautilus Pullover machine, where the elbows take the highest percentage of the work load. And in return, the lats are worked to the extreme. Chins, pulldowns, rows, etc will never ever come close to the way the lat muscles are worked with Nautilus. Perhaps with the proper Pre-exhause system, the chances can be improved.

Getting back to the original question, in my view only; the Hammer Strength (in whatever form) is a very poor choice /design compared to the Nautilus shoulder/delt training devise. Good Luck.

Oh, yeah; I meant how do the companies compare in terms of general quality and effectiveness.
I've used the Hammer lateral-raise machine throughout my "gym tenure" because I always preferred the feeling I got from it. Although, I'll confess that, in my early years, it never dawned on me why it was better. Years later, after engaging in deeper thinking, it makes sense in regards to the point of tension/resistance.

You were the one to convince me to try the pullover machine for the first time. It took me almost six years to do it, but it is now a staple in my back day. For some reason, I always think about that scene from Blood & Guts in which Leroy Davis is screaming at Dorian, which helps me crank out a few more reps. I imagine it'd be quite motivating to have your own personal pirate spotter. Anyway, my back has been about my only naturally strong (well-developed) body part over the years. It's progress, however, had stalled in recent times. The pull-over machine has sparked some new thickness, which is good, as everything else has had a good chance to catch up now. I have you to thank.

As always, thank you for the insight and recommendations!

[jpm101]

Montague: Don't know if you are familiar with it but Nautilus also made a Pull Down type machine, as well as the Pull Over machine ,for the back/lats. Where the elbows were to the sides, rather than in front of the body (Pullover exercise) and with the elbows, being on pads, had full focus on moving the resistance down (grip/hands were never involved, as they are in regular chins/pull downs). Very effective, but very hard to get into at first (always wondered i Jones only had average, or below average, height men in mind when designing the Nautilus equipment).

Some guy's never got the full benefit of the Nautilus Pullover machine, not understanding that if was a stand alone exercise instrument. They would add it to their regular lat/back workouts, which was a bit self defeating. If working on most any Nautilus machine, 2 to 3 cycles would only be required, to work a muscle/muscle group to the fullest ability. Sometimes enthusiasm gets the better of common sense. Only exercise than might be added would be Dl's (Romanian, SLDL's, partial, etc), which no only gets the supporting muscle, traps, lower back, but also the grip. Good Luck.

[Montague]

Montague: Don't know if you are familiar with it but Nautilus also made a Pull Down type machine, as well as the Pull Over machine ,for the back/lats. Where the elbows were to the sides, rather than in front of the body (Pullover exercise) and with the elbows, being on pads, had full focus on moving the resistance down (grip/hands were never involved, as they are in regular chins/pull downs).

If it's the piece I'm thinking of, no: I've never tried it or even seen it in person.
If I recall correctly, I believe that funk51 had posted a picture of this apparatus some time ago. I remember thinking that it was something I would have loved to try.

[jpm101]

Montague: If anyone can bring up a pic of any exercise equipment, designed by man, it would be the master, Funk51. Great faith in him. (he's probably go a pic of a Sumer treadmill somewhere in his data base)

There were a few gyms that only featured the Nautilus line of machines. You would circuit  the workouts, usually  going from the larger muscle groups (legs/hip/back) and working down to the bicep/tricep or ab devises. Of course these gym's never lasted very long.  First , they were extremely expensive to set up, with the gym owners not getting back any where near the investments of time and money put in. Second, there were hard to get adjusted too, for the general exercising public. May have liked the idea of the Nautilus, but always seem to go back to free weight gyms after awhile.  One point being, the Nautilus required a higher intensity of effort, when first getting adjusted to that more focused way of training.

Nautilus training had been knows to cause  being sick to the stomach, vomiting or blacking out, if the beginner did not take it easy at first. Most notable were the leg/hip/back and pullover machines. Even the bicep/triceps for a few. A higher oxygen debt, with near ultimate focus on the three phases of muscle contraction, perhaps one of the causes. Just like any thing else in weight training, it's a good idea to actually know something about any new protocol you may want to follow. Good Luck.

[Montague]

Montague: If anyone can bring up a pic of any exercise equipment, designed by man, it would be the master, Funk51. Great faith in him. (he's probably go a pic of a Sumer treadmill somewhere in his data base)

There were a few gyms that only featured the Nautilus line of machines. You would circuit  the workouts, usually  going from the larger muscle groups (legs/hip/back) and working down to the bicep/tricep or ab devises. Of course these gym's never lasted very long.  First , they were extremely expensive to set up, with the gym owners not getting back any where near the investments of time and money put in. Second, there were hard to get adjusted too, for the general exercising public. May have liked the idea of the Nautilus, but always seem to go back to free weight gyms after awhile.  One point being, the Nautilus required a higher intensity of effort, when first getting adjusted to that more focused way of training.

Nautilus training had been knows to cause  being sick to the stomach, vomiting or blacking out, if the beginner did not take it easy at first. Most notable were the leg/hip/back and pullover machines. Even the bicep/triceps for a few. A higher oxygen debt, with near ultimate focus on the three phases of muscle contraction, perhaps one of the causes. Just like any thing else in weight training, it's a good idea to actually know something about any new protocol you may want to follow. Good Luck.

That's fascinating.
Although I've never researched it, I had no idea that Jones' machines were used in that manner.

[funk51]

 

[funk51]

did anyone ever use the keiser air machines?

[jpm101]

That's the one...and a total bitch to get in & out of. Thanks Funk51.

[Montague]

That's the one...

^^What he said.

[jpm101]

The original intent, by Art Jones, was to have the Nautilus exercise protocol done within  a full body workout. And the circuit style training, starting with the larger muscle groups down to the smallest, as the better method. (general rule of thumb, in BB'ing, was/is to work the large muscles first and the smaller muscles last in any workout)  So the first Nautilus station was  leg/hip/back, the last station was usually arms. Jones was also conscious of the advantage of the Pre-exhaust system, injected with the Nautilus machine idea.

Art Jones was also of the opinion that a simple full body BB workout could, if applied correctly, be the nearest thing to the Nautilus machine. Though never matching the ultimate results that a machine might give to a BB'er.  A problem with the Nautilus is that the strength gain does not transfer over very well to free weight strength or even sports performance. Athletes tend to use a little Nautilus and more free weights in training. But Nautilus does have it's place in athletic training rooms. But, perhaps, better suited to pure BB'ing and muscle gains. Good Luck.