Author Topic: Keepable gains?  (Read 7453 times)

theworm

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Getbig!
Keepable gains?
« on: September 03, 2007, 01:12:50 PM »
Hey guys, I used a few cycles in the past and gained like 20-30 pounds in a 2 year period.  Since then ('01), I lost maybe 8 pounds.  so, i kept most of my gains, in fact, i lost some fat.  maybe i kept the majority of gains...  the media makes you think you LOSE it all and keep all the sides.

do you all have the same experiences?
you are gay.

RDW

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
  • Get Big or Go Home
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2007, 01:31:27 PM »
Well it certainly depends on the cycle one takes and the training ethics one keeps after a cycle.  A cycle of Deca and Abombs you are gonna blow up but then lose most of it after.  A cycle of Test, EQ, Tren, and Winny with a good PCT you will likely keep almost all of your gains, granted the actual amount of weight you gain won't be as high as the Deca/Abomb cycle, but it will be quality mass.

Keeping gains is dependant on too many things to make a generalized statement about.  Also, 20-30 lbs in 2 years isn't hard to keep those gains no matter the cycles.  A 220lb person could gain 40lbs in 1 month if they really wanted to, and I don't mean by eating McDonalds out of business.

uckmo

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2007, 01:34:22 PM »
So your saying you been off for almost 6 years and you only lost 8 lbs from the 20-30lbs of gains.

I doubt its muscle that your holding on to.unless you still work out just as hard everyday like before when you were on.

I could be wrong but i doubt it.

cause my last cycle i put on 15 lbs and lost 20 and i did pct all the way.

maybe everyone is different.

I think Trab and AJ might have a better answer

Arnold jr

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7247
  • fleshandiron.com
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2007, 02:02:53 PM »
The media portrays that you will lose all your gains because most people who do use AAS do lose all their gains. Why? Simply because they don't know what they are doing.

The media portrays that you will keep all the sides because it's the people who have bad side effects that stand out and fit the bill that the media wants to portray...particularly when it comes to the illusion of 'roid rage."...which by now I hope we all know is a completely fabricated myth.

You're not going to see the media portray the successful users in their reports...those who keep much of their gains with very little side effects. Why? Because this goes against their agenda, which is perpetuating the illusion of the immoral act of using performacne enhancing drugs.

Is it possible to keep all the gains you make from a cycle of AAS, every last pound? No, not likely, not every last pound since almost always from a bulking cycle some of the gains are indeed simply water weight...which always dissipates after a cycle.

Is it possible to keep most of the gains after a cycle? Yes, and like RDW said, there are many things that are dependant on this for it to be successful, i.e. diet and training.

So how do you do it, what's the best method? This may be getting a little long for some of you to read but I don't want to leave anything out...so read it if you want.

After a successful bulking cycle, proper PCT is a must. Nolva and/or clomid seem to be the best drugs of choice when running ones PCT, they are the staples, but added in HCG no doubt makes the PCT process that much easier and efficient.

Training: after a cycle and during PCT and maybe even a little while after that, I've found that lowering ones total volume in training greatly aides in keeping your gains. Meaning doing less sets then you did while on cycle but doing your best to keep the weight the same. So short intense workouts seem to be the best. Why? Simple, your body cannot handle the same work load that it could while on cycle...the added umph isn't there. If you're not careful, during the Post cycle time period, you run a greater risk of over training then any other time period.

Diet: For the typical hardgainer, after a good cycle of AAS, they may find that they indeed need to actually eat a little more during this time to ensure that their gains are kept. However, this will not work for everyone because some of us, me included, will put on extra fat doing this. After a cycle is over, cortisol levels can start to get out of whack very easily, and with that in mind, too much food can end up reeking havoc on ones waist line. If you fall into this category, do not begin eating more, simply keep the diet stable, eat clean and follow proper training methods.

There is not one single key factor in keeping all your gains after a good bulking cycle, all 3 aspects must be in line, PCT training and diet. For most to get this just right, it takes a little bit of trial and error, and it is never exactly perfected because as we age and progress in out own BB goals, things change in our bodies. But you can get much more efficient with time, just pay attention to what works for you and your body and what doesn't.

Last off, for the most part everything I've said here is ore in reference to bulking cycles, when we're trying to add good mass. When it comes to dieting, particularly harsh diet such as for a BB contest, factors can change. That is a tougher scenario and takes a bit more planning IMO. But as for keeping gains in general, the above stuff pretty well sums it all up in general terms IMO.

trab

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4950
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2007, 02:10:50 PM »
A lot (everything) depends what happens after the cycle.
Even if you come off smooth as can be, your vulnerable for awhile to taking a rapid loss of size.
Get sick, or stress big time? Forget it.

But it does seem that its a lot easier to get back again to where you were, than break new highs.

To my mind (and body) Work volume and frequency has to come down when the muscle swelling meds stop.
I try damn hard to keep strength up, but I put a whole lot more focus in the efficiency of a minimum
of basic movements. And short duration workouts at that.

If your a guy that can blast 2x week bodyparts post-cycle and not suffer for it, Great. I sure cant.

Getting rid of the stuff that holds lots of water long before the end helps.  But, just because Anapolon and test and deca hold lots of water dont mean good things cant come from them. 
I'd Use them early.

Using Tprop & Stanoz inj the last month has been the best (simple/basic) way Ive found.

I'd be interested to see RDW's favorite way of using the Test - Tren - Winny. Esp the end of the program.

bigjohn_bluesfan

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1467
  • yeah baby
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2007, 04:51:12 PM »
Well it certainly depends on the cycle one takes and the training ethics one keeps after a cycle.  A cycle of Deca and Abombs you are gonna blow up but then lose most of it after.  A cycle of Test, EQ, Tren, and Winny with a good PCT you will likely keep almost all of your gains, granted the actual amount of weight you gain won't be as high as the Deca/Abomb cycle, but it will be quality mass.

Keeping gains is dependant on too many things to make a generalized statement about.  Also, 20-30 lbs in 2 years isn't hard to keep those gains no matter the cycles.  A 220lb person could gain 40lbs in 1 month if they really wanted to, and I don't mean by eating McDonalds out of business.

bro, no offense but your analysis of "taking deca and blowing up but losing most of it later" is a very poor asessment... in comparison with the other compounds mentioned, with the exception of winstrol, deca has the highest rating for retaining gains.. most experts give it 8 out of 10.... just wanted to set the record straight and not have incorrect info out here...
ah yeah Im a voodo child

RDW

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
  • Get Big or Go Home
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2007, 05:27:12 PM »
bro, no offense but your analysis of "taking deca and blowing up but losing most of it later" is a very poor asessment... in comparison with the other compounds mentioned, with the exception of winstrol, deca has the highest rating for retaining gains.. most experts give it 8 out of 10.... just wanted to set the record straight and not have incorrect info out here...

I used that example because it is a common combination for people who say "I wanna get big what should I take" and don't know what they are doing.   You are right in that Deca itself does not result in a lot of loss after the fact because of its low aromatization, however it and Anadrol both have progestin activity and combined result is significant water retension as well as progestin induced gynecomastia.  This results in significant weight gain, most of which is lost after the cycle. Most of the weight that is retained is from the newly formed progestin induced gyno that generally results, which cannot be combated with the standard Nolva/Clomid the newbie who wanted to get big was given.

I realize you probably don't like me, BJBF, because of the post I made knocking your habits, but please don't try to go out of your way to try to discredit me. I have been here a long time and I think I have proven myself to be generally helpful.  There is no reason for us to bicker.

Luv2Hurt

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6036
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2007, 05:41:23 PM »
The body will eventually seek to normalize (homeostasis) once the effect of the gear is gone and as you lose strength and enthusiasm things start to fall off.  LONG cycles are said to help impart the most change in maybe keeping long term gains, by long I mean a year or more.

There is a placebo to the effect though that while on gear you saw you could push and pull bigger weights.  After cycle you will try hard to stay with these new #'s this has given you new confidence to use bigger weights and more training intensity, this may help to gain natural muscle after cycle and appear to have kept juice induced gains.

theworm

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Getbig!
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2007, 05:53:09 PM »
True.

I would say I gained 30 pound, and over the past 3 years, only lost 8, and I feel that 8 has been mainly fat.  I used test/EQ/d-bol and pct, but I train now harder than ever, sleep right, east right. 

I think most pros do not even work out when they come off, thats why they look like shit in the offseason (i.e. Melvin, etc).
you are gay.

Arnold jr

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7247
  • fleshandiron.com
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2007, 08:32:44 PM »
bro, no offense but your analysis of "taking deca and blowing up but losing most of it later" is a very poor asessment... in comparison with the other compounds mentioned, with the exception of winstrol, deca has the highest rating for retaining gains.. most experts give it 8 out of 10.... just wanted to set the record straight and not have incorrect info out here...
I used that example because it is a common combination for people who say "I wanna get big what should I take" and don't know what they are doing.   You are right in that Deca itself does not result in a lot of loss after the fact because of its low aromatization, however it and Anadrol both have progestin activity and combined result is significant water retension as well as progestin induced gynecomastia.  This results in significant weight gain, most of which is lost after the cycle. Most of the weight that is retained is from the newly formed progestin induced gyno that generally results, which cannot be combated with the standard Nolva/Clomid the newbie who wanted to get big was given.

I realize you probably don't like me, BJBF, because of the post I made knocking your habits, but please don't try to go out of your way to try to discredit me. I have been here a long time and I think I have proven myself to be generally helpful.  There is no reason for us to bicker.

BJBF, bro, I love you to death but I'm going to have to agree with RDW on this one...he hit the nail right on the head IMO.

The body will eventually seek to normalize (homeostasis) once the effect of the gear is gone and as you lose strength and enthusiasm things start to fall off.  LONG cycles are said to help impart the most change in maybe keeping long term gains, by long I mean a year or more.

There is a placebo to the effect though that while on gear you saw you could push and pull bigger weights.  After cycle you will try hard to stay with these new #'s this has given you new confidence to use bigger weights and more training intensity, this may help to gain natural muscle after cycle and appear to have kept juice induced gains.
Very well put L2H!

!@#$%

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 313
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2007, 12:53:24 PM »
it and Anadrol both have progestin activity and combined result is significant water retension as well as progestin induced gynecomastia.  This results in significant weight gain, most of which is lost after the cycle. Most of the weight that is retained is from the newly formed progestin induced gyno that generally results, which cannot be combated with the standard Nolva/Clomid the newbie who wanted to get big was given.



How do you combat the progestrogen induced gyno? Proviron on cycle? What else?

I'm on deca now, and i was getting some gyno on one side, and i started taking nolva. it has gone down a lot but i still have some left. what should i do. i've been on cycle for a while now, but i am very close to some major milestones and don't want to end my cycle just yet.

Overload

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7464
  • KO Artist
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 01:35:39 PM »
bro, no offense but your analysis of "taking deca and blowing up but losing most of it later" is a very poor asessment... in comparison with the other compounds mentioned, with the exception of winstrol, deca has the highest rating for retaining gains.. most experts give it 8 out of 10.... just wanted to set the record straight and not have incorrect info out here...

No...he is correct.

Most "experts" have never even used AAS.

8)

2ND COMING

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6307
  • Might is right.
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 02:47:37 PM »
I found that PCT combined with NO training until hormones are back to normal results in the best retention.  Otherwise, you just break down muscle that won't be rebuilt.  But, your diet better be very clean.  This is just my personal experience.

no training for 3-4weeks?

this theory is bogus IMO

theworm

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Getbig!
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 03:09:21 PM »
yeah, I strongly believe in "if you don;t use it, you will loose it."

Not workin out is what the pros do, and you ever see a pic of melvin or Gunter in the offseason?
you are gay.

Overload

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7464
  • KO Artist
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 03:10:24 PM »
I found that PCT combined with NO training until hormones are back to normal results in the best retention.  Otherwise, you just break down muscle that won't be rebuilt.  But, your diet better be very clean.  This is just my personal experience.

Well, what exactly is your experience?

i know this would kill all my gains but i'm open to anything with some research.

8)

theworm

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4019
  • Getbig!
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2007, 03:20:58 PM »
I really cannot see how this can occur from a medical standpoint.  If they are not being used, they will break down and become atrophic.  for instance, bed bound people loose a hell of a lot of muscle mass only in a few days, and become very week despite the best nutrition etc...

you are gay.

trab

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4950
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2007, 03:32:15 PM »
I really cannot see how this can occur from a medical standpoint.  If they are not being used, they will break down and become atrophic.  for instance, bed bound people loose a hell of a lot of muscle mass only in a few days, and become very week despite the best nutrition etc...



Yeah, but they are sick.

Ive found it best to hit major muscle groups so hard that theres no way Im touching them again for 5 days.

Ive found I can go up to 10 days and still make strength gains on the bench... any longer is asking to regress.
Many guys are training more often than is productive, but not heavy and focused enough.

Beef from Heavier work seems to  hang around a lot better thru layoff or if you get sick or hurt.

Bottom line is need experiment find what works for YOU the individual. And that changes over time/ development.

RDW

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
  • Get Big or Go Home
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2007, 04:36:04 PM »
Everyone's body is different obviously and will respond to lengths off and on differently.  I personally would never go more than 10-14 days off.  Every 12 weeks I take a full week off then start right back where I left off. 

Quote
I found that PCT combined with NO training until hormones are back to normal results in the best retention.  Otherwise, you just break down muscle that won't be rebuilt.  But, your diet better be very clean.  This is just my personal experience.

Why won't these muscles be rebuilt?  I'm failing to understand medically what you are describing here.  If, perhaps, during a PCT is the only time you take a break then I don't doubt that you come back stronger.  If that is the case I suggest doing what I described and take a week or 2 off every 12-20 weeks.

RDW

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
  • Get Big or Go Home
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2007, 05:13:45 PM »
How do you combat the progestrogen induced gyno? Proviron on cycle? What else?

I'm on deca now, and i was getting some gyno on one side, and i started taking nolva. it has gone down a lot but i still have some left. what should i do. i've been on cycle for a while now, but i am very close to some major milestones and don't want to end my cycle just yet.

Winstrol is not bad as a progesterone inhibitor and is obviously accessable to anyone who is getting gear, obviously it can be harsh on your liver and I don't recommend stacking it with dbol or another 17AA.  The only legal herb I know of that has supposed anti progesterone properties is Queen Anne's Lace (Wild Carrot).  If you are in dire straights you can try to get your hands on a morning-after pill, but I really don't know what the resulting side effects could be on a male as there really aren't any studies out there on it.  Chemically I would think it would work though  ;D

bigjohn_bluesfan

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1467
  • yeah baby
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2007, 06:44:22 PM »
I used that example because it is a common combination for people who say "I wanna get big what should I take" and don't know what they are doing.   You are right in that Deca itself does not result in a lot of loss after the fact because of its low aromatization, however it and Anadrol both have progestin activity and combined result is significant water retension as well as progestin induced gynecomastia.  This results in significant weight gain, most of which is lost after the cycle. Most of the weight that is retained is from the newly formed progestin induced gyno that generally results, which cannot be combated with the standard Nolva/Clomid the newbie who wanted to get big was given.

I realize you probably don't like me, BJBF, because of the post I made knocking your habits, but please don't try to go out of your way to try to discredit me. I have been here a long time and I think I have proven myself to be generally helpful.  There is no reason for us to bicker.

I dont dislike you. I just didnt particularly care for you bashing me when you dont know me. i actually have read alot of your posts and I have learned a few things. I dont know alot about steroids. I have only ran a few cycles. I come here so I can learn from guys like you and have fun in the processs. My natural personality is to joke and act crazy. I cant help that, its the way I am. I do take my bodybuilding and training seriously, and I can see where you could get aggrivated with the nonsense, however, this forum needs some silliness mixed with the seriousness or its no fun.
ah yeah Im a voodo child

Arnold jr

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7247
  • fleshandiron.com
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2007, 07:13:50 PM »
I dont dislike you. I just didnt particularly care for you bashing me when you dont know me. i actually have read alot of your posts and I have learned a few things. I dont know alot about steroids. I have only ran a few cycles. I come here so I can learn from guys like you and have fun in the processs. My natural personality is to joke and act crazy. I cant help that, its the way I am. I do take my bodybuilding and training seriously, and I can see where you could get aggrivated with the nonsense, however, this forum needs some silliness mixed with the seriousness or its no fun.
Agreed, it does need just a little bit of this to keep things light and enjoyable...you 2 guys play nice, lol!

Rimbaud

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9884
  • There can be only one.
Re: Keepable gains?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2007, 12:34:12 AM »
I dont dislike you. I just didnt particularly care for you bashing me when you dont know me. i actually have read alot of your posts and I have learned a few things. I dont know alot about steroids. I have only ran a few cycles. I come here so I can learn from guys like you and have fun in the processs. My natural personality is to joke and act crazy. I cant help that, its the way I am. I do take my bodybuilding and training seriously, and I can see where you could get aggrivated with the nonsense, however, this forum needs some silliness mixed with the seriousness or its no fun.

I also agree. That's why we love you John because you're way out there...  ;)