Author Topic: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....  (Read 6239 times)

jmt1

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good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« on: September 05, 2007, 12:16:19 PM »

Dog Food ~ Decoding Fact from Fiction

     The great dog food debate- the good the bad and the ugly. How does one choose? If you follow your television you may believe that the companies that advertise on there have foods full of tasty meat and chock full of great vitamins and minerals, but is it true? Not so much. In the world of dog food it is buyers beware, yet the average person picking up a supermarket brand of dog food is unaware of the hazard. This does not make them bad owners they are simply uninformed owners. Who knew you needed to research dog food more diligently than your own food?

     While it is true many dogs have lived out full life spans on Ol' Roy or a similar low-quality kibble for years, it does not mean it is the best choice. It would be like you going out to eat at your local McDonalds daily. You wouldn't eat junk food on a daily basis and neither should your pet either.

     Better quality foods are highly digestible which means there is less waste to come out! Poor quality pet foods contain fillers, like corn. It makes your dog feel full but is highly indigestible. Feeding a premium food means that your dog will eat less, IAMS suggest that you feed a 25 lbs dog 4 cups of kibble. On a holistic brand like Solid Gold, you are likely to feed 1.5 cups or less! Holistic brands cost more but last longer than any supermarket brand. Since your pet is healthier by feeding a premium brand, it also means fewer visits to the vet.

Veterinarians and the Pet Food Industry~

     Veterinarians and nutrition is a touchy subject for many. I love my vet. She is great, when it comes to the overall well being of my dog. When it comes to nutrition, I respect her, but I do not want her suggestions. When I go to my doctor, and I have a nutrition based problem I see a specialist. The same is true in the animal world. While some vets can specialize in certain areas like nutrition, which require hours of research and practical work the average vet has 3-5 hours of nutrition studies per semester. A drop in the bucket in comparison to the countless hours studied on the medical health of animals. While I will not take the statistics offered from vet schools without a grain of salt, a typical veterinary medical student spends about 4,000 hours in classroom, laboratory, and clinical study. That's a lot of education, and without specializing, very little of it is on food. So why do so many people exclusively trust their vet's opinion? They are professionals and are devoted to the care of our pets but are sorely lacking when it comes to a pet's diet.

     Without doing your own research you honestly would not know what is in the food you feed your precious cat or dog. Also, they get kickbacks in selling food whether it be IAMS, Science Diet or Hill's Veterinary Formula (made by Science Diet). Charles Danten was a veterinarian in Montreal for 20 years. Now he's a journalist who writes about the ethics of his former profession. He told Marketplace that the mark up on premium pet food accounted for as much as 20 per cent of his income. Unless your pet has a serious problem that is untreatable in any other form, there is no reason to use Hill's. For short term problems there are benefits, but it has a large price tag for the daily feeding of mediocre ingredients for the life span of your pet. If you understand the animal's problem, you can often find a better food that will also help your pet. Every vet diet I have looked at contains mediocre to bad ingredients. Some have reasons for working like the K/O kangaroo and Oatmeal from Eukanuba's Vet line (most dogs have never been exposed to kangaroo and can not be allergic to something they have never been in contact with) and others like the gastro formulas are just a load of bad ingredients that do not seem to have any calming properties. There is little reason for a dog to be on any vet formula for life. With some care and research you can find better foods that will also do the same job if not a better one without a prescription. It does not matter which brand a vet pushes, Hill's, Medi-cal or Eukanuba's veterinary diets. They all have a similar jumble of less than desirable ingredients.

jmt1

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2007, 12:17:24 PM »
Rating Your Current Kibble~

     How to grade your dog's food:
Start with a grade of 100:

1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points

2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points

5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer's rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points

6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3points

9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points

11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

Extra Credit:

1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points

2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points

3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

If the food contains barley, add 2 points

9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point

13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point

94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D
69 = F

     This is a list of some foods to give you an idea on how they score. I did not add them up, so if the math is not correct, I was not responsible, though I appreciate having the list to use.

Eagle Pack Holistic: 119 A +
Wellness Super5Mix Chicken: 117 A+
Solid Gold Bison-123 points A+
Eagle Pack Natural: 94 A
Canidae-119 points A+
Natural Balance Duck and Potato-114 points A+
Eagle Pack Large and Giant Breed Puppy: 94 A
Timberwolf Organics Lamb and Venison-136 points A+
Innova-117 points A+
Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken-114 points A+
Chicken soup-113 points A+
Flint River Ranch: 92 (non-specific fat source) B
Eukanuba Natural Lamb and Rice-87 points B
Nutro Natural choice Lamb and Rice-85 points C
Nutro Chicken, Rice, & Oatmeal: 85 (non-specific fat source) C
Eukanuba Large Breed Adult: 83 C
Iams Large Breed: 83 C
Iams Lamb Meal and Rice-74 points D
Science Diet chicken adult maintainance-45 points F
Bil-Jac select-37 points F
Science Diet Large Breed: 68 F
Pro Plan All Breed: 68 F
Pedigree Complete Nutrition: 42 F
Pedigree Adult Complete-14 points F
Ol Roy-9 points F
Purina Beneful- 17 points F


read the full article here...http://www.iheartpaws.com/articles/35/1/Dog-Food--Decoding-Fact-from-Fiction-by-Laura-Presley/Page1.html

Vet

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2007, 12:40:23 PM »
reasonable information....


There are very, very few board specialized veterinary nutritionists out there.   I am lucky enough to know and have the ability to work with one who, while she isn't boarded she holds a PhD in nutrition and has been through a veterinary nutrition residency.  Unfortunately political bullshit within the ACVN will keep her from ever taking boards.  and I work with a second one who while he isn't a veterinarian, he is working on his PhD in nutrition.   I cosider myself lucky to have those two individuals just a phone call away if I need them. 


One thing mentioned is the "kick backs".   I have to say those are becoming fewer and fewer as pet food companies shift their sales of higher priced pet foods from the veterinarians office to large grocery stores (like Iams moving to Walmart).   My wife and I were talking about this just the other day....   what we got as "freebies" in veterinary school from the food companies, her students just aren't seeing.  Now some of that varies from school to school, but it sure seems to be changing.    The down side to this is that in some cases veterinary students are goign to get even less information about animal nutrition than they did before the less involved the pet food companies are.  Thats not necessarily a good thing at all. 

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2007, 01:29:18 PM »

   Kibble manufacturers "sponsoring" nutrition classes is an oxymoron!!

      ;D

  I suppose that if kibble is going to be pushed some education on how to put the things back in that have been processed out is necessary.    8)

  You are not really talking rocket science here though in feeding carnivores!!   

 It's amazing how people can manage to feed themselves, yet feeding an animal is made out to be sooooooooo difficult.     

  Considering carnivores (dogs, cats, ferrets) don't need carbs (veggies, grains) it should be a lot easier to feed them than to feed ourselves, yet I don't see Human Kibble on the shelves.
     ::)

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2007, 01:32:22 PM »
5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points           ???

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points    ???

 

If the food contains barley, add 2 points     ???
 

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point      ???

 

 None of these belong in a CARNIVORE DIET.   



    The meat section of your grocery store is also the carnivore section 
;)


   





   

Geo

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 01:44:37 PM »
who came up with the idea to feed cats fish anyways ?

it's not like cats can catch fish in the wild,because I watch alot of wildlife shows and not once have I ever seen a wild tiger or cheetah or puma walk up to a stream and pull out a fish when it was hungry...


I could see feedin a bear fish because bears eat fish (i've seen bears pull fish out of streams on the TV) but then again keepin bears is illegal, so when ya come to think about it fish are gettin a raw deal here...

I just thought I'd vent on behalf of fish everywhere !

knny187

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 02:56:55 PM »
If I gave my cat a chance at a fish bowl.....

her new name would be "The Gordon Fisherman"

Vet

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2007, 03:16:59 PM »

   Kibble manufacturers "sponsoring" nutrition classes is an oxymoron!!

      ;D

  I suppose that if kibble is going to be pushed some education on how to put the things back in that have been processed out is necessary.    8)

  You are not really talking rocket science here though in feeding carnivores!!   

 It's amazing how people can manage to feed themselves, yet feeding an animal is made out to be sooooooooo difficult.     

  Considering carnivores (dogs, cats, ferrets) don't need carbs (veggies, grains) it should be a lot easier to feed them than to feed ourselves, yet I don't see Human Kibble on the shelves.
     ::)



LOL.  Carnivore or carnivorous omnivore?   ;D

Thats where the fruit is coming from.  Wild dogs---including foxes and coyotes will eat plant material readily.  Hell I 've got a hard time some days to keep my one staffie from grazing like  an old cow in the yard...



you also touch on the one problem I'v egot with "Homemade" diets.  I really, really dont' think the average person can feed themselves well (I'm writing this as I'm eating reduced fat cheezeits and a diet mountian dew).   Those who know better sometimes just choose not to do so (admit it, cheeze its just taste good) and there are many who just don't care.  They are going to eat for taste no matter what.   I just dont' think you can expect the average american who eats pretty much pure crap to be able to feed their dogs appropriately when they cant feed themselves.   

Vet

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 03:21:00 PM »
who came up with the idea to feed cats fish anyways ?

it's not like cats can catch fish in the wild,because I watch alot of wildlife shows and not once have I ever seen a wild tiger or cheetah or puma walk up to a stream and pull out a fish when it was hungry...


I could see feedin a bear fish because bears eat fish (i've seen bears pull fish out of streams on the TV) but then again keepin bears is illegal, so when ya come to think about it fish are gettin a raw deal here...

I just thought I'd vent on behalf of fish everywhere !

LOL.  It depends on the big cat.   Fishing cats from SE asia get their name from somewhere.  ;D

Jaguars, mountian lions, and tigers will all readily fish in captive situations and in the wild. 


And it is legal to own bears in some parts of the US.  I had a client in Ohio bring a 500 lb, seriously pissed off black bear into the vet hospital on the back of his ford ranger.  Thank god the truck had a campershell.  ;D

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2007, 03:27:00 PM »
We've already gone over the fact that dogs, cats and ferrets are carnivores.

 The fruits and veggies are put in to make the "nutritional value" look good and because it sounds good to people.  Wholesome grains!  Nutritious Veggies!!

 Feeding a carnivore is not difficult at all. It is easier than feeding yourself because you don't and shouldn't be feeding carbs (vegs, grains, fruits). 

 People think it is difficult because that is what they have been led to believe.  And thanks for proving that the even the "educated" have fallen for that.   ;)


  But people can keep on feeding them junk food they can't digest that easily, shit that has to have stuff added to it to make it able to even be called food.

 It's so much easier to treat them for the problems that arise from a substandard diet than to take a few minutes to learn how easy it is to feed them.

  Seriously, what is so difficult about feeding a dog?
  :-\

Hedgehog

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2007, 03:35:18 PM »
We've already gone over the fact that dogs, cats and ferrets are carnivores.

 The fruits and veggies are put in to make the "nutritional value" look good and because it sounds good to people.  Wholesome grains!  Nutritious Veggies!!

 Feeding a carnivore is not difficult at all. It is easier than feeding yourself because you don't and shouldn't be feeding carbs (vegs, grains, fruits). 

 People think it is difficult because that is what they have been led to believe.  And thanks for proving that the even the "educated" have fallen for that.   ;)


  But people can keep on feeding them junk food they can't digest that easily, shit that has to have stuff added to it to make it able to even be called food.

 It's so much easier to treat them for the problems that arise from a substandard diet than to take a few minutes to learn how easy it is to feed them.

  Seriously, what is so difficult about feeding a dog?
  :-\

I have to agree with you on many points here.

Many people tend to give their dogs food from the table, the leftovers. Which means the dog will get pasta, rice, cakes and whatever the fcuk else.

Maybe the stupid dog owners think they're treating the dogs with "goodies".

But like you say, they're just giving the dog trouble.

I'm sure lots of the intestinal problems that dogs get are not natural, but rather related to uneducated owners.

As empty as paradise

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2007, 03:48:25 PM »
My dogs very rarely get any treats, people or dog treats. I do have a bag of dog biscuits but I very rarely hand them out. 

  But honestly, if I only had one dog I would probably spoil it by giving it some of my food/snacks occasionally.  But with 4 of them that would mean I get nothing, and I don't like sharing snacks!!!!   

     ;D


  When Tad comes to work he does get a few pieces of my chicken, but at home he gets nothing. 

Vet

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2007, 04:19:16 PM »
We've already gone over the fact that dogs, cats and ferrets are carnivores.

 The fruits and veggies are put in to make the "nutritional value" look good and because it sounds good to people.  Wholesome grains!  Nutritious Veggies!!

 Feeding a carnivore is not difficult at all. It is easier than feeding yourself because you don't and shouldn't be feeding carbs (vegs, grains, fruits). 

 People think it is difficult because that is what they have been led to believe.  And thanks for proving that the even the "educated" have fallen for that.   ;)


  But people can keep on feeding them junk food they can't digest that easily, shit that has to have stuff added to it to make it able to even be called food.

 It's so much easier to treat them for the problems that arise from a substandard diet than to take a few minutes to learn how easy it is to feed them.

  Seriously, what is so difficult about feeding a dog?
  :-\

The same that is so difficult about feeding humans......    ;)


And for the record, Flower, I'm just trying to get you riled up with what I posted.  I know weve beeen over this before... and I'm sure we'll go over it again.  If I had to rank cat, dog, and ferret in terms of "carnivorisness", its pretty much a no brainer.  Ferrets and Cats are strict carnivores with little digestive ability to handle plant material.  Dogs do to a degree have some (again the example of a dog eating grass or wild canids eating fruit), but they are far more carnivore than they are anything else.


Hedge also brought up the huge point of table scraps....   Thats the numberone cause of obesity in pets.  The fact that humans feed a 9 lb dog a human sized scrap over and over through out the day and don't stop to think that the dog is 9 lbs, not 220.  Excess calories leads to obesity.  Its pretty simple.   ;) 

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2007, 05:24:32 PM »
There should be a human kibble!!! 

 Fresh is not where it's at!! Processed is the new thang!!!

   Why eat something nutritious and wholesome when you could eat something "balanced" and "fortified" and "complete".


  Bioavailibilty is so yesterday!!




        ::)


jmt1

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2007, 05:41:02 PM »
i would agree that a properly balanced raw or barf diet would be best. from what i have heard in talking to other dog owners there are still many who refuse to feed their dogs any raw meat.  maybe its just out of convienence or some concerns they have over raw meat.  either way those owners should atleast learn to look at labels and choose a quality kibble over much of the low grade garbage that is out there.

here is an example of one of the best kibbles on the market.

Timberwolf Organics - Wilderness Elk Dry
Ingredients:
Fresh elk, salmon meal, millet, sweet potatoes, oats, flaxseed

Timberwolf Organics - Ocean Blue
Ingredients:
Low ash white fish meal, salmon, potatoes, sardine/mackerel/anchovy/tuna oils

Timberwolf Organics - Dakota Bison
Ingredients:
Fresh bison meat, salmon meal, millet, sweet potatoes, oats, flaxseed

much better choice than one of the many popular store brands like science diet for example.

Science Diet - Adult Large Breed
Ingredients:
Corn meal, chicken by-product meal, soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid)

Science Diet - Light Adult
Ingredients:
Corn meal, soybean mill run 16%, chicken by-product meal, peanut hulls 10.8% (a source of fiber), corn gluten meal, soybean meal, chicken liver flavor, vegetable oil


vet what do you tell people in your office when they ask you for advice on what to feed?

Lord Humungous

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2007, 07:31:26 PM »
Through Flowers advice and phone calls she convinced me to put Oscar on a BARF diet. I feed him, beef and bone, raw meaty bones, raw green tripe, and a pork/veggie mix. His coat, teeth and over all health are 10x better. His poop has been reduced and doesnt smell as bad and for once he looks forward to meals! If you can do it I say feed raw its totally worth it!
X

temper35

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2007, 08:33:37 PM »
Flower get off your raw diet high horse, jesus christ.  You feed a raw diet, WE GET IT. 

You act like wild animals eat fresh meat every single day.  Wolves go days without eating and graze/snack on herbage until they do eventually kill something.  By this logic since "OMGZ DA CARNIVORES DEY DON'T EAT FROOTS" you should be feeding your dog every 2-3 days only.  Your spiel is so annoying it really is.

temper35

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2007, 08:38:06 PM »
PS-  Most vets know shit about canine nutrition, and that is why alot of vets sell science diet.  The vet who gave Plato his shots at 16 weeks said science diet was "one of the best" when I said I am not feeding that to my dog.

Al-Gebra

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2007, 08:47:23 PM »
PS-  Most vets know shit about canine nutrition, and that is why alot of vets sell science diet.  The vet who gave Plato his shots at 16 weeks said science diet was "one of the best" when I said I am not feeding that to my dog.

step away from the keyboard and take ten deep breaths.

temper35

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2007, 09:24:02 PM »
step away from the keyboard and take ten deep breaths.

Yeah oh my god I am so enraged let me go lay down....

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2007, 04:06:43 AM »
Flower get off your raw diet high horse, jesus christ.  You feed a raw diet, WE GET IT. 

You act like wild animals eat fresh meat every single day.  Wolves go days without eating and graze/snack on herbage until they do eventually kill something.  By this logic since "OMGZ DA CARNIVORES DEY DON'T EAT FROOTS" you should be feeding your dog every 2-3 days only.  Your spiel is so annoying it really is.



  High horse?  So posting about "better" kibbles is fine, but it is not fine to post about feeding real food?    ::)    Everyone has been brainwashed that kibble is the only way to feed, so posting about raw is needed so that people are aware of that option, and the myths and scare tactics that have been used to keep the kibble gravy train going need to be dispelled.  I don't think pointing out ingredients that are touted as being great in a kibble and making it a better one should be ignored and not pointed out that that is for hype only and marketing. 

  I do fast my dogs for either a meal, and sometimes a whole day.  It is common to do if there is no health cause (such as the animal being on meds that require to be taken with food).

 
  Tis a shame that you think feeding real food is considered being on a "high horse".   ::)    I don't think it is, I think it is just a natural way to feed, nothing special about it, nature came up with it.
   ;D
 


 

Princess L

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2007, 04:41:36 AM »
Rating Your Current Kibble~


10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points


 :-\  I wonder why  ???


9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points


I seem to recall reading a long time ago that flax oil isn't that great of a thing for dogs (or was it cats?).  Something about them not being able to assimulate it or something... ???   Nothing bad, just a waste basically...


:

Princess L

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2007, 04:47:48 AM »

   Kibble manufacturers "sponsoring" nutrition classes is an oxymoron!!

      ;D

Yeah, I heard the local Petco puts those on...  ::)



  You are not really talking rocket science here though in feeding carnivores!!   

 It's amazing how people can manage to feed themselves, yet feeding an animal is made out to be sooooooooo difficult.     

You talking to me
  ???>:(

 :P

  Considering carnivores (dogs, cats, ferrets) don't need carbs (veggies, grains) it should be a lot easier to feed them than to feed ourselves, yet I don't see Human Kibble on the shelves.
     ::)


Sure you do!!!  It's all the hell all over!!!  Look at all the cereals, granola bars, frozen (crap) meals, cookies, crackers, Pringles, Twinkies, fruit roll-ups, shall I go on? on the shelves  ;D


:

Princess L

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2007, 04:56:24 AM »
PS-  Most vets know shit about canine nutrition, and that is why alot of vets sell science diet.  The vet who gave Plato his shots at 16 weeks said science diet was "one of the best" when I said I am not feeding that to my dog.

Just like Doctors know $hit about human nutrition.  Same thing with my vet.  I think she's old school and has been brainwashed by Hills.  She's getting an earfull next week when Scout goes in for his 1 year check up.  I'm taking the above with me.  Thanks JMT.
:

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Re: good info for those who feed their dogs kibble.....
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2007, 05:07:58 AM »
Through Flowers advice and phone calls she convinced me to put Oscar on a BARF diet. I feed him, beef and bone, raw meaty bones, raw green tripe, and a pork/veggie mix. His coat, teeth and over all health are 10x better. His poop has been reduced and doesnt smell as bad and for once he looks forward to meals! If you can do it I say feed raw its totally worth it!

  Get off your high horse!!!   
     ;D