Patriots Steal Signals ( merged mega thread)

[OzmO]

What Bill did was wrong and his punishment seems  to be appropriate.

What kills me is everyone running around thinking that's why the Pats were successful the last 6 years.   

Very dumb thinking. 

[body88]

John Maddens take


Madden, who coached the Oakland Raiders from 1969-79, said stealing signs is nothing new.

"Well, I mean, we all did it, and that was part of it, getting signals," he said. "Every coach in the world is always pushing to get a competitive advantage, that's always been happening.

"And if they are giving away cues, or clues, or whatever tendencies that you could pick up, you take them, and you play against them.

"Part of it is a player giving away a play. Part of it can be the snap count, part of it can be signals that they're signaling in, or you hear the things they yell. That's always been, happening from Day 1 of football."

The difference now, he said, "is it's become so sophisticated compared to when I coached. They not only have the tape after the game, but they have all the computer stuff to edit it. They know so much more about each other than we ever did."
Other than that, he said, nothing has really changed.

"It did happen when I was coaching, before I was coaching, and after I was coaching," Madden said. "The difference here is using videotape."

Madden also bemoaned the fact that the controversy detracted from last Sunday's game.

"The Patriots were so impressive against the Jets, especially their offensive line," he said. "They played really well, so there was a lot of good football there and a lot of things that they can carry over into this game."


John Madden, Dan reeves, Parcels, Martz and Shula all saying this is no thang. Espn talking heads and ny media calling for blood. Hmmmmmmmmmmm!

[body88]

Cold hard football facts breaks down this whole fiasco and shoots big time holes in the hater parade


Belichick's rep sleeps with the football fishes
Cold, Hard Football Facts for September 13, 2007
 
(Click here for the trash-Belichick free-for-all in the Football Forum)
(Click here for the I-love-Belichick-you-leave-him-alone thread in the Football Forum)
 
By Kerry J. Byrne
Cold, Hard Football Facts capo di tutti capi
 
Bill Belichick's reputation sleeps with the football fishes after he was whacked by Gridiron Godfather Roger Goodell Thursday with the largest fine levied against a coach in NFL history.
 
Give a little assist, too, to the blood-thirsty sharks in the media for snapping up the morsels of Belichick's sinking legacy.
 
The Gridiron Godfather has wasted no time stamping his imprint on the league after inheriting the family business earlier this year. Even Michael Corleone would be impressed by the way the NFL commissioner has gone after those who have double-crossed his football family.
 
Thanks to Goodell, no fewer than six NFL players or coaches had already been whacked for all or part of the 2007 season (Rodney Harrison, Chris Henry, Tank Johnson, Pacman Jones, Michael Vick and Cowboys assistant Wade Wilson).
 
The mighty Belichick is the latest victim of the Gridiron Godfather's bloodlust, after the Patriots were caught Sunday filming the defensive signals of the N.Y. Jets, in clear violation of league policy. As a result of the infraction, according to the NFL:
Belichick will be fined $500,000 maximum
The Patriots will be fined $250,000
The Patriots will forfeit a 2008 first-round draft pick if they reach the playoffs, or a second- and third-round pick if they don’t reach the playoffs.
The fine against Belichick is the highest allowed by league policy. (You can read the text of Belichick's reaction to the penalties here, as reported by Mike Reiss of The Boston Globe.)
 
The media firestorm
Those who believe the penalty is too steep will point out, correctly, that every coach and every athlete in every sports attempts the decode the signals of their opponents.
 
Belichick made the mistake of filming the attempts. That's the whole crime here, folks.
 
Because the practice of signal-stealing is so widespread, coaches around the country, past and present, seem overwhelmed by the media firestorm that has propelled what’s essentially a tepid, lukewarm story into the national spotlight.
 
Let's put it this way: if the Detroit Lions or Arizona Cardinals committed the same violation, nobody would give it a second thought and it would barely register on the local radar screen in those communities, let alone explode into the lead story on national news networks, as "camera-gate" has become.
 
You know this is true. And we know this is true.
 
That acknowledgement makes this story, by definition, a media-created firestorm. As the Cold, Hard Football Facts noted in The Boston Herald Thursday, sharks were already circling Belichick, waiting to move in for the kill. His violation of league policy simply puts a little blood in the water that whips up his critics into a fever, especially those critics in the media who have felt slighted by him in the past.
 
But consider the reaction from the coaching community:
Don Shula is the winningest coach in NFL history. According to several reports, he actually put the blame on the Jets for allowing themselves to be taken advantage of, perhaps fully aware that every coach in history has made the same effort as Belichick (even if they didn’t film the effort). 
Former NFL coach Chuck Knox dismissed the controversy as "a whole lot about nothing," according to Art Martone of the Providence Journal.
Terry Francona, the manager of MLB's Boston Red Sox, dismissed signal-stealing as a common practice in his sport.
Hall of Fame football coach George Allen was notorious for spying on his opponents' practices.
John Tomase of the Boston Herald cites a former NFL cameraman who said that "I can guarantee you the Jets and everyone else are doing it, too."
Pigskin Jay-Walking
In the big scheme of things, what Belichick did is the pigskin equivalent of jay-walking or driving 70 in a 65 m.p.h. zone. It’s not like he committed a true violation of industry standards, like a journalist openly stealing the work of another and passing it off as his own. That’s a game perfected by vocal Belichick critics.
 
Even the Gridiron Godfather said in his statement that the use of the camera “had no impact on the outcome of the Patriots-New York Jets game.”
 
Still, Belichick did violate a clearly stated league policy, one the commissioner reiterated to the league as recenty as September 6, three days before the transgression.
 
So Belichick deserves to the pay the price.
 
And, as we noted, it’s an incredibly steep fine – the highest allowed by league policy – especially given the fact that the infraction caused no physical or financial harm to any party and had no impact on the outcome of a game, and considering that the practice of stealing team signals is, according to many sources past and present, fairly common in the coaching community.
 
But that’s why Goodell is the Gridiron Godfather and you are not: he rules with an iron hand and whacks anyone who brings shame to the family name.
 
It's not personal for Goodell, the way it is for the anti-Belichick stool pigeons in the media. These bumbling football Fredos now tearing into Belichick for filming signals (we're talking cameras!) have felt slighted by the coach's non-answers at press conferences. They're now taking it out on him in print and over the airwaves, as if it's the coach's job to make their lives easy. "Do you know who I am?!" they seem to scream with every scathing syllable. These media tools are doing what they do best, using their forums and their personal agendas to shred another reputation.
 
But, no, it's not personal to the Gridiron Godfather himself. It's strictly business: Belichick has shamed himself and the league.
 
Isolated incident?
The media tools have gone so far as to suggest this controversy clouds New England's three Super Bowls over the past seven seasons. Clearly it does, at least in the eyes of factless public perception.
 
But in light of those allegations of on-going cheating, it deserves mentioning that the NFL, in penalizing Belichick and the Patriots, cited no other incidents other than the one Sunday against the Jets. If this had been a long-term problem, it's interesting that the NFL failed to point it out when issuing its ruling. And if it had been an on-going problem over the years, it's interesting that the NFL never acted before to penalize what is clearly a violation of league policy. This failure to act upon past transgressions provides further proof that the media, especially Belichick critics in the media, drove this story.
 
It’s important to keep in mind that, as part of the penalty, the Patriots will forfeit their own picks in the 2008 draft. They have two picks in both the first and third rounds, their own pick in each round, along with San Francisco's first-round pick and Oakland's third-round pick. If the Patriots perform as well this season as many anticipate, they’ll actually keep the earlier picks and forfeit their own picks later in the round.
 
We'll have a much better idea of how New England's season will unfold Sunday night, when the Patriots host competing AFC power San Diego in what essentially becomes a rare "must-win" game in Week 2 for an organization that, often for better but this time for worse, is at the center of the nation's sporting attention.
 

[Dos Equis]

Not nearly stiff enough. The Jets played a fair game, the Pats didn't. They should have been forced to forfeit.

I agree.  I want to first say I do believe the Pats are a great team, with the best coach in the NFL, best QB in the NFL, etc., etc.  That said, what they got was a slap on the wrist IMO.  Kraft will simply write a check to cover the fines.  It will be like paying a parking ticket.  The Pats have two first round picks, so losing one will not be that big of a deal.  At a minimum, they should forfeit the game and the coach should be suspended IMO. 

I read the rule and Belichick's apology.  He hasn't really taken responsibility.  Here is the rule:  NFL rules state "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." They also say all video for coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."    http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribunereview/news/breaking/s_527413.html 

Clear as day. 

Here is part of Belichick's apology:  "Part of my job as head coach is to ensure that our football operations are conducted in compliance of the league rules and all accepted interpretations of them. My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and Bylaws was incorrect."  http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3018587 

Interpretation??  What interpretation?  That is a croc.

My view is this is no different than any other kind of "cheating," including college teams using an ineligible player.  A team can be forced to forfeit a game for using an ineligible player, even if the player has no direct impact on the outcome of the game. 

And to say this had no impact on the Jets game (or all the other games where he cheated) is wrong.  They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it gave them a competitive advantage.   

But it's over and I'm looking forward to the Pats/Chargers on Sunday.   

[body88]

Beach with all due respect you are incorrect in your assertions that the pats gained some kind of advantage from taping the jets during that game. Goodel even said they didnt. The pats never looked at the tape.



"I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight's ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused. I also apologize to Patriots fans and would like to thank them for their support during the past few days and throughout my career.

As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress."

Btw did you see my thread showing the jets violating the same rule the pats did? Where is the outrage? Look at the pictures in that thread. here is one of the several pictures catching the jets doing the same thing.




Top right hand corner filing when the pats d is on the field.

[Dos Equis]

Beach with all due respect you are incorrect in your assertions that the pats gained some kind of advantage from taping the jets during that game. Goodel even said they didnt. The pats never looked at the tape.



"I accept full responsibility for the actions that led to tonight's ruling. Once again, I apologize to the Kraft family and every person directly or indirectly associated with the New England Patriots for the embarrassment, distraction and penalty my mistake caused. I also apologize to Patriots fans and would like to thank them for their support during the past few days and throughout my career.

As the Commissioner acknowledged, our use of sideline video had no impact on the outcome of last week's game. We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage while the game was in progress."

Btw did you see my thread showing the jets violating the same rule the pats did? Where is the outrage? Look at the pictures in that thread. here is one of the several pictures catching the jets doing the same thing.




Top right hand corner filing when the pats d is on the field.

Body if this type of cheating has no impact on the game, then why do they do it? 

If the Jets cheated, they should be punished too.  I don't condone any kind of cheating by any team.  I'd have the same opinion if it was my Niners.  And I don't think you have to show someone actually benefited from cheating to have a harsh punishment.  Think of the student who gets caught with answers to a test in his pocket, while taking the test.  He is in a world of trouble, regardless of whether he actually used the answers.  We have numerous instances where a team violates rules for "cheating" and suffers severe consequences, with no showing that there was a direct impact on the outcome of a particular game.  That's really not the issue IMO (although I find it difficult to believe teams do things like this if they don't think it helps in some way).   

For example, UH men's volleyball won a national championship several years ago.  It was taken away after it came out that one of our players played in 4 matches against professional players, for no compensation, before starting his college career.  http://starbulletin.com/2003/07/15/news/story2.html

I don't think the 4 matches this guy played in before his college career had one iota of impact in his college career and in particular our national championship. 

[body88]

I'm not saying this type of thing has no impact on the game. What I'm saying is "the tape" was confiscated before the pats ever saw it. They beat the jets without the aid of any type of tape. The pats didnt cheat in that game. Goodel confirmed they did not in his statement. Roger said the outcome of the jets game had nothing to do with the confiscated tape or cheating, making the crys to replay the game a moot point. Jets fans who think they lost because the pats cheated are only cheating themselves. The comish clearly stated the tape had nothing to do with the outcome of the game. The pats where fined for having a cam on field and taping signs. Which could have lead to cheating. Roger let Bill state he had never used the tapes to cheat during a single game. Wht they did was wrong, but it amazes me how people are totally ignoring what they where found guilty off. And it aint cheatin.

As you see the jets where doing the exact same shit 

[pumpster]

Body in full denial and not much in the way of credibility as a result.

Stop posting more excuses; they did it, maybe for years.

[body88]

Body in full denial and not much in the way of credibility as a result.

Stop posting more excuses; they did it, maybe for years.

Really? Roger did not say the tape that was confiscated had nothing to do with the outcome of the jets game? Oh wait he did. Roger did not let bill release a statement which said he had never used any video footage to cheat during a game? Oh wait he did. Did the NFL cite any other incidents like this EVER when handing out the penalty? No they didnt. Where did Roger say this could have gone on for years. You are reffering to opinions written by writers with agendas. I can write an article calling the colts cheaters If I want. Dont mean its true. You are not using actual facts from people in the NFL to make some of these claims.

Get of the soap box and prove me wrong.



But in light of those allegations of on-going cheating, it deserves mentioning that the NFL, in penalizing Belichick and the Patriots, cited no other incidents other than the one Sunday against the Jets. If this had been a long-term problem, it's interesting that the NFL failed to point it out when issuing its ruling. And if it had been an on-going problem over the years, it's interesting that the NFL never acted before to penalize what is clearly a violation of league policy. This failure to act upon past transgressions provides further proof that the media, especially Belichick critics in the media, drove this story.
 

[Dos Equis]

I'm not saying this type of thing has no impact on the game. What I'm saying is "the tape" was confiscated before the pats ever saw it. They beat the jets without the aid of any type of tape. The pats didnt cheat in that game. Goodel confirmed they did not in his statement. Roger said the outcome of the jets game had nothing to do with the confiscated tape or cheating, making the crys to replay the game a moot point. Jets fans who think they lost because the pats cheated are only cheating themselves. The comish clearly stated the tape had nothing to do with the outcome of the game. The pats where fined for having a cam on field and taping signs. Which could have lead to cheating. Roger let Bill state he had never used the tapes to cheat during a single game. Wht they did was wrong, but it amazes me how people are totally ignoring what they where found guilty off. And it aint cheatin.

As you see the jets where doing the exact same shit 

I don't think the Pats won the game because of this tape, regardless of whether they watched it.  The tape had nothing to do with Randy Moss running all over the field and catching TD passes.  But does that really matter?

Maybe we're using different definitions.  I think if they broke the rule by taping signs for the purpose of stealing those signs, that's cheating.  Sounds like you're saying it's only cheating if they actually use the tape and the tape benefits them in some way? 

[body88]

I don't think the Pats won the game because of this tape, regardless of whether they watched it.  The tape had nothing to do with Randy Moss running all over the field and catching TD passes.  But does that really matter?

Maybe we're using different definitions.  I think if they broke the rule by taping signs for the purpose of stealing those that signs, that's cheating.  Sounds like you're saying it's only cheating if they actually use the tape and the tape benefits them in some way? 

Oh I see. I missunderstood you. I dont understand why they would have to replay the game? That would mean any game which there was a rule violation would have to be re played? The comish defined what the pats did as a violation of NFL rules (cam on field) not cheating.

I dont think they can prove the purpose of that tape. According to Beli and co they where trying to expose a loophole and tape the singals to build a scouting report for later use. The wording states you cant tape signs for use during game.

Look i dont think what they did was ok. I also think anti belichick head hunters pumped this wayyyy out of proportion. The like of Don Shula, Mike Martz, Parcells, Madden and reeves have all stated this was wayyyy overbown.



Just my .02

[Dos Equis]

Oh I see. I missunderstood you. I dont understand why they would have to replay the game? That would mean any game which there was a rule violation would have to be re played? The comish defined what the pats did as a violation of NFL rules (cam on field) not cheating.

I dont think they can prove the purpose of that tape. According to Beli and co they where trying to expose a loophole and tape the singals to build a scouting report for later use. The wording states you cant tape signs for use during game.

Look i dont think what they did was ok. I also think anti belichick head hunters pumped this wayyyy out of proportion. The like of Don Shula, Mike Martz, Parcells, Madden and reeves have all stated this was wayyyy overbown.



Just my .02

I don't think they should replay.  I think they should forfeit.  I know you think that's too harsh, but I think the NFL should take a hard-line stance on this, not just to punish the Pats, but to send a message to the league.  No team should be able to do this.

We’re really splitting hairs if we’re trying to distinguish a violation of the rules from cheating. 

I respect Parcells, Madden, Reeves, etc. and their opinions are important.  It's just my view that this kind of stuff affects the integrity of the game.  But I'm also one who believes we need to get drugs out of the sport.     

[body88]

I don't think they should replay.  I think they should forfeit.  I know you think that's too harsh, but I think the NFL should take a hard-line stance on this, not just to punish the Pats, but to send a message to the league.  No team should be able to do this.

We’re really splitting hairs if we’re trying to distinguish a violation of the rules from cheating. 

I respect Parcells, Madden, Reeves, etc. and their opinions are important.  It's just my view that this kind of stuff affects the integrity of the game.  But I'm also one who believes we need to get drugs out of the sport.     

Right but if the commish said the pats did not use the tape to cheat during the game, what would be the premise for a forfeit? The only rule the pats broke on that day was having a video machine on the field. Stealing signs is not illegal. Neither is building a file of them. They screwed up by using a video camera. If you are talking about stealing signs and integrity of the game it has been long lost.

The broncs cheated the cap time after time during there sb runs. They got docked a third and a fifth. You don't think a first and a 750k fine is not good enough?

Goodel is a total hard ass. The fact he took a first when the pats have so many pics ( and that was his hard ass approach_ goes to show this was driven more by media hatred then legit concern for the game.

The dolphins bragged about stealing the pats audio last year and no one gave a shit. The jets did exactly what NE was busted for during the same game, no one cares. This is about building people up then taking them down. This has just as much to do with jealousy as it does the pats effing up.


Look at Heinz Ward, making excuses the pats stole there offensive signals which led them to lose that afc game. Hilarious! The NFL hands out sanctioned tamper free headsets before the game. The offensive calls are through radio, not hand signals. Ward is making excuses for losing that day. Impossible excuses. The funny part is people think he may be on to something! What he is purposing is not only foolish it just didn't happen.

I'm going on Rogers definition of what happened, and it ain't cheating. It sure as hell isn't cheating over long periods of time. The is 100 percent speculation made up by people with agendas. The NFL has never looked into the pats cheating other then today. If they did they failed to mention it when they layed down there punishment, and when it happened.

The speculation is from people who lost to them.

[pumpster]

Body in total shock, expending waaaay too much thought on this NE blunder that's likely been going on for years. And then Bellichick turns around and does it to Mangini LOL



Belichick's blunder lacks foresight, reason

One doesn't have to be a Monday morning quarterback to realize the league's smartest coach pulled off one of the dumbest moves in recent memory.

Bill Belichick, the architect behind the New England Patriots dynasty that produced three Super Bowl championships in four years, got whacked big time by the NFL on Thursday for his behind-the-scenes role in "Videogate."

Commissioner Roger Goodell fined Belichick $500,000 and stripped the club of what could be a first-round draft choice in 2008 for the illegal videotaping of signals by the New York Jets' coaching staff in Sunday's season-opening game.

If New England makes it to the playoffs - almost a given - it will forfeit its first-round pick in the 2008 draft. Even if the Pats fail to get to the postseason, the consolation prize will be losing both a second- and third-round pick.

"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid longstanding rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," Goodell wrote in a letter to the Patriots on Thursday.

That the incident occurred during a 38-14 blowout of the Jets by a Patriots team that probably rates as the strongest Belichick has presided over in his eight seasons in Foxboro just begs the question: Why?

Why would a coach who has been favorably compared to the game's all-time greats and owns a gaudy postseason record (13-3) that is second only to the legendary Vince Lombardi risk both his reputation and that of what has been called a model franchise for such cheap tricks? Not to mention unnecessary tricks.

Depending upon who you listen to, these kind of shenanigans go on all the time in the cutthroat world of the NFL. There also is an ongoing debate among players and coaches over just how much of an edge can be gained by such deceitful tactics employed by Belichick, the master of micro-managing.

What it seems that almost everyone agrees upon is that the Patriots have pushed the envelope in this area for years, having been reported by at least two teams for similar spying episodes in the past.

That Belichick had the temerity to pull his latest stunt against the New York Jets perhaps was his biggest blunder of all.

The teams have had an increasingly antagonistic relationship over the years, and it has continued to smolder since longtime Belichick assistant and disciple Eric Mangini took the Jets head coaching job before the 2006 season.

Mangini, according to the New York Daily News, alerted NFL security on Sunday, which confiscating the video tape that will cost Belichick half a million and owner Robert Kraft another $250,000. And let's not forget the draft pick(s).

Belichick refused to shake Mangini's hand after the teams' first game in 2006 - good thing he won - and barely gave him a finger in the second matchup, when the Jets prevailed.

Those actions alone probably did not cause Mangini to turn on his former boss, but when Belichick had the audacity to attempt videotaping his arch-rival on their home turf, it was akin to sticking out his chin and daring Mangini to take a swing.

Guess what? Mangini did.
Does all this sound like the moves of the genius that Belichick has been made out to be?

What possessed Belichick to act like this? Is he merely living up to his I-know-better-than-you reputation and simply is too darn arrogant; or is he living down to his sideline wardrobe and simply is too darn sloppy?

Think the former, and here's why. The league sent out a memo before the season that clearly spelled what is not allowed. Read on:

"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

Belichick's response to that on Thursday, as he accepted "full responsibility" for the incident, is telling.

"My interpretation of a rule in the Constitution and By-laws was incorrect," Belichick said in a statement.

Huh? How don't you understand that? Sort of like telling a cop after you blow through a stop sign, "Sorry officer, my interpretation of having to stop was incorrect."

Let's face it, Belichick could care less what you or I think, but his boss does. Seeing his coach's face plastered on tabloids with blaring headlines such as "Beli-Cheat" and "Snoop Dog" must be unsettling for Kraft, who has made it a mission of running an organization beyond reproach.

Being the butt of jokes around the league and having to lay out $250,000 for Belichick's wandering camera eye probably won't help soothe Kraft's feelings.

Then there's the matter of the New England players. They now are forced to defend themselves for the actions of a coach who never has been a favorite in the locker room.

Admired for his ability? Certainly. But Belichick's cold, ruthless style in salary cap matters and player-personnel moves only play well in the locker room for one reason - he wins and, so it was believed, he wins because he prepares his team better than yours.

That perception, and the accompanying aura that has been enjoyed by the Patriots in this decade, has disappeared. Belichick's reputation as a brilliant tactician, built on 33 years of coaching, seemingly is gone overnight.

Faster than you can say ... Michael Vick.

[body88]

Pumpster still waiting for you to present me some facts to back up these claims. Not articles that are opinion and not fact. You cant thats why you keep dodging it. Here let me pose the questions to you for a third time. Then you respond with some agenda driven opinion article from the NY media proving me right time after time. That article is clearly from a NY source, and leaves out the part where Goodel says the tape has no outcome on the game. Get real Just more articles driven by opinion and not facts.

Prove that

Goodel did not say the tape had no outcome on the jets game

Goodel did not allow belichick to say he had never used sings to cheat during a game

The NFL looked into the pats cheating in the past

Mike Martz did not flat out say the  pats beat the fair and square in the superbowl

The comish busted the pats for cheating and said it


I want legit facts, not some article by some talking head with a pen.

[pumpster]

Pumpster still waiting for you to present me some facts to back up these claims. Not articles that are opinion and not fact. You cant thats why you keep dodging it. Here let me pose the questions to you for a third time. Then you respond with some agenda driven opinion article from the NY media proving me right time after time.

Prove that

Goodel did not say the tape had no outcome on the jets game

Goodel did not allow belichick to say he had never used sings to cheat during a game

The NFL looked into the pats cheating in the past

Mike Martz did not flat out say the  pats beat the fair and square in the superbowl

The comish busted the pats for cheating and said it


I want legit facts, not some article by some talking head with a pen.

Nothing more to be done; you're proving that you're living in the past with zero objectivity.



CASE CLOSED


Let's hope the players are less shell-shocked than Body, otherwise the season's already lost.

[ieffinhatecardio]

Pumpster still waiting for you to present me  some facts to back up these claims. Not articles that are opinion and not fact. You cant thats why you keep dodging it. Here let me pose the questions to you for a third time. Then you repsond with some agenda driven opinon article from the NY media proving me right time after time.

Body, stop feeding the trolls. Any and all talk of forfeits and suspensions is asinine.

BTW, do you realize that pumpster clown at one point said the CFL was as good as the NFL and that Flutie was as good as Elway or something equally insane? Think of who you're "debating" with. 

[pumpster]

Body, stop feeding the trolls. Any and all talk of forfeits and suspensions is asinine.

BTW, do you realize that pumpster clown at one point said the CFL was as good as the NFL and that Flutie was as good as Elway or something equally insane? Think of who you're "debating" with. 

My points are valid, you are a clown prone to insults for those who know better than you.

[body88]

Nothing more to be done; you're proving that you're living in the past with zero objectivity.

CASE CLOSED
Let's hope the players are less shell-shocked than Body, otherwise the season's already lost.

I win.This is the way you got when you called woods erratic and overrated!

[pumpster]

I win.This is the way you got when you called woods erratic and overrated!

the funniest thing about it is that to this day, Woods *was* erratic then, compared to now-he knew it and you didn't bwhaahahahahahahahahahah a


As far as NE, the commish agrees with me, not a FANATIC AKA Body.

[body88]

My points are valid, you are a clown prone to generalizations when you don't agree with someone.

No there not lol. You cant prove anything. You post opinions from some clown with an agenda and pass them off as facts.

Prove to me

When the NFL looked into the pats for cheating on two seperate occasions ( when who)

When Goodel said the pats cheated in the past

When the NFL said the pats cheated in the past

Goodel didnt say the tape from sun had no outcome on the game

Goodel didnt let Beli say he had never used taped signals during a game to cheat

[body88]

the funniest thing about it is that to this day, Woods *was* erratic then, compared to now-he knew it and you didn't bwhaahahahahahahahahahah a


As far as NE, the commish agrees with me, not a FANATIC AKA Body.

No there not lol. You cant prove anything. You post opinions from some clown with an agenda and pass them off as facts.

Prove to me

When the NFL looked into the pats for cheating on two seperate occasions ( when who)

When Goodel/NFL said the pats cheated in the past

When the NFL said the pats cheated currently

Goodel didnt say the tape from sun had no outcome on the game

Goodel didnt let Beli say he had never used taped signals during a game to cheat

[body88]

Body, stop feeding the trolls. Any and all talk of forfeits and suspensions is asinine.

BTW, do you realize that pumpster clown at one point said the CFL was as good as the NFL and that Flutie was as good as Elway or something equally insane? Think of who you're "debating" with. 

But Jim Dicklick of the New York dump rag said Belichick cheated 34 years ago blah blah blah

prove these claims!

Paulie Paste eater of the kindergarden chronicle told Mrs White that numerous "soures" (sour grapes losers) say Belichick stole signals when he was with the browns. Oh shit they had a losing record over those four years? I mean aaaaaaa Belichick sucks!

[ieffinhatecardio]

My points are valid, you are a clown prone to insults for those who know better than you.

Bwwaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh hhhaaaaaaaaaa

Prone to insults, sounds like you're talking about yourself. Even your avatar is an insult to someone. Nice work on the hypocrisy Prof. Hawking.

BTW, how's that CFL is as good as the NFL theory working out for you, or the Flutie is as good as Elway theory or my particular favorite, Tiger Woods is overrated?

BWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA

And last but not least, you workout with a bowflex. I won't mention your humble abode because that's just embarrassing.

[pumpster]

Hopefully the players are less shell-shocked, less delusional and more resilient than these maniacs, otherwise as far as this season...