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Author Topic: How the "Science" is done for pet food  (Read 2774 times)
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« on: September 11, 2007, 11:58:14 AM »

A look into the "science" and what experimental dogs have to go through so pet dogs can be fed food they are not designed to eat, what a damn shame:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine/02pet-t.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=5e5047c3cc41f371&ex=1189569600
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 01:24:23 PM »

A look into the "science" and what experimental dogs have to go through so pet dogs can be fed food they are not designed to eat, what a damn shame:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine/02pet-t.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=5e5047c3cc41f371&ex=1189569600

What I think is funny about that article is the subconscious bias.  Take the illiojujenostomy tube----thats a standard feeding tube used to supply nutrition to dogs where the stomach must be bypassed. .  For example a Great Dane post GDV surgery or a dog hit by a car with a diaphragmatic hernia.   To read that article, its straight from the devil.   However if its placed correctly, the dog will heal with only a small intestinal adhesion to the body wall and the tube can be removed and the site closed with no negative effects. 

And this is the best quote I've seen in a long, long time about pet foods.... 
Quote
“People buy diets on the basis of two things,” Fahey said. “The first is palatability. You put it on the floor and the dogs clean up the bowl.” He lifted a pencil from a desk and held it in the air. The second thing, he explained, is the appearance of the stool. “It should be half as long as this pencil, picked up as easily as this pencil, Ziplocked — and away we go.”
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~flower~
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 02:12:58 PM »

I think keeping dogs in cages with minimal exercise and companionship so they can be studied on how they can be fed food they shouldn't be eating in the first place is bullshit.

  The stools would NATURALLY be smaller if they weren't fed the FILLER that those studies are carried out for.

  You missed my whole ironic meaning in posting that.
   Angry

  The pet food industry propagates harm by first inflicting harm!!

  Did you notice where he says he is an independent and does these studies for the pet food craponies so they don't have to be affiliated with them? 



  With his academic status and independent financing, George Fahey’s research spares pet-food manufacturers the negative publicity they might attract if they ran their own experiments on surgically altered dogs.
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~flower~
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 02:15:10 PM »

As Fahey described the lab’s procedures, the room grew quiet, and by the end of his monologue the dogs sat in total silence, their eyes plaintive. Clearly, they were begging, but begging for what? Perhaps they expected to be fed. Perhaps they longed for an end to their captivity. Fahey grinned and said nothing, but the moment we left the room and shut the green metal door, it sounded as if some evil doctor had begun to torture the poor animals. They howled and blubbered and brayed and whined, and their pathetic ululations followed us as we traced our way back down the yellow cinder-block hallway, past the cattle gates, through the final door and out to the light of a hot Midwestern afternoon.

“What made them so upset?” I asked.

“They thought you were going to take them out to play,” Fahey said. “Look what you did.”



  All in the name of feeding crap food!!   


 Or IN THE NAME OF MAKING MONEY ON CRAP FOOD!!! 

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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 02:27:38 PM »

As Fahey described the lab’s procedures, the room grew quiet, and by the end of his monologue the dogs sat in total silence, their eyes plaintive. Clearly, they were begging, but begging for what? Perhaps they expected to be fed. Perhaps they longed for an end to their captivity. Fahey grinned and said nothing, but the moment we left the room and shut the green metal door, it sounded as if some evil doctor had begun to torture the poor animals. They howled and blubbered and brayed and whined, and their pathetic ululations followed us as we traced our way back down the yellow cinder-block hallway, past the cattle gates, through the final door and out to the light of a hot Midwestern afternoon.

“What made them so upset?” I asked.

“They thought you were going to take them out to play,” Fahey said. “Look what you did.”



  All in the name of feeding crap food!!   


 Or IN THE NAME OF MAKING MONEY ON CRAP FOOD!!! 



Ok, think of it this way....would you know it was "crap" food if none of this research was ever done?   How would you reach that conclusion?  By conjecture and opinion? 


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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 03:22:22 PM »

Ok, think of it this way....would you know it was "crap" food if none of this research was ever done?   How would you reach that conclusion?  By conjecture and opinion? 



 All processed pet food is crap.  Some are crappier than others is all.   Smiley


 Might as well do a study with humans to find out how we can add bark and rocks to our diet. We shouldn't be eating bark and rocks, and what we should be eating is right there in front of us, but I bet lots of money could be made if there was a food that used bark and rocks as the bulk of it and with the right "science" done it could even be made to look like its good for you.


    Grin
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~flower~
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 03:30:06 PM »

And furthermore............. ........ Roll Eyes


  Those are not real life studies.  We all know that stress, exercise, and other variables can affect how bodies functions including how it uses food.

  So keeping companion animals caged like that is not even a good study to begin with!! 

 Junk science on junk food!!     Angry

  I believe I did hear one company (it might of even been  Tongue Iams) that said they were using feeding trials done with honest to goodness family pets.  No animals in cages, animals that were living a LIFE. 

 I don't think pets should suffer so people can feed them shit.  That is suffering with no purpose. 

 Everybody think about that the next time you pour a bowl of processed food chunks.   A dog somewhere is sitting in a cage so your dog can eat crap it shouldn't and some bunk science dude can feel good telling you it is great for him, and some big CEO dude can continue to make money.

   This concludes my "feel good" speech for today. 
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 05:23:47 PM »

And furthermore............. ........ Roll Eyes 

that part was kind of funny
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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 05:40:50 PM »

And furthermore............. ........ Roll Eyes


  Those are not real life studies.  We all know that stress, exercise, and other variables can affect how bodies functions including how it uses food.

  So keeping companion animals caged like that is not even a good study to begin with!! 

 Junk science on junk food!!     Angry

  I believe I did hear one company (it might of even been  Tongue Iams) that said they were using feeding trials done with honest to goodness family pets.  No animals in cages, animals that were living a LIFE. 

 I don't think pets should suffer so people can feed them shit.  That is suffering with no purpose. 

 Everybody think about that the next time you pour a bowl of processed food chunks.   A dog somewhere is sitting in a cage so your dog can eat crap it shouldn't and some bunk science dude can feel good telling you it is great for him, and some big CEO dude can continue to make money.

   This concludes my "feel good" speech for today. 


LOL@ feel good speech.   I'm not going to agree or disagree in your comments about commercial food being "shit".  We've been through this, I honestly don't think you can trust the average human to feed themselves a nutritious diet, much less feed their dogs (or their children for that matter).

I personally am not a big fan of animal research, but there is no realistic alternative for many studies (I'm staying very, very general with this statement on purpose because there are many, many alternatives with others and the most noninvasive proceedure should ALWAYS be the one chosen).  The infamily feeding trials were done by both Iams and Purina if I'm not mistaken.  I've worked in two hospitals that also did final feeding trials on animals (these were for both prescription and regular diets) The problem with those sort of feeding trials is the innate degree of variability you have with different households.  The initial research needs to be done where you can guarantee that the dogs are not getting snuck table scraps or other stuff that so, so many households feed their dogs.    The only way to do that is to conduct the research in a laboratory situation.  Its not ideal, but its humans that are once again at fault.  

I've worked with research animals of a variety of species, from birds to mice and rats to dogs to yucatan minature swine to cattle to llamas and alpacas to horses to nonhuman primates.  Of all of those, I really do think a "reasonable" quality of life can be developed in most general instances except for the nonhuman primates.   Thats a whole different ballgame that becomes very complex depending on the species.   A big key component of it is the quality of the laboratory crew that is hired for the research project.  These are the people who are so often overlooked but really are the ones that will give a "normal" life to the animals.  I've worked as one of those people as an undergrad and the attitude of the researcher towards the animals are directly reflected by their animal care crew.  

I don't know if you know or not, but the thoroughbred and quarterhorse of my wifes are both research lab parolees.  The quarterhorse is a pretty complex story, but the thoroughbred was basically an off the track gelding who'd run his life out winning a few hundred thousand.  He had laryngeal paralysis, and as a gelding, was basically worthless.   He was bought at a surplus acution and from there got taken into my wifes lab, where an experimental surgery was done to correct his laryngeal paralysis.  He was also used as a surgical teaching horse for insertion of a coil embolus for gutteral pouch mycosis.  This horse spent his time as a research horse, was brushed twice per day, lunged daily,  had regular foot care, was given some "carrot/mint/apple time---my wifes term she does with all of the horses in her research---and in all honesty taken better care of in my opinion than a large number of horses I've seen in the private sector.  Once the research projects were done, rather than be euthanized, all of the horses in the group this thoroughbred came from were adopted out---we ended up with the thoroughbred--except for one mare, who in all honesty was too dangerous for anyone but the most experienced horse owner tohandle and quite frankly, we couldnt' find that type of owner interested in her.  We tried.  She was euthanized because of her temperment, not because of lab protocol.  

What I'm trying to say is that while animal research may not be unavoidable, the attitude of the researcher and the attitude of the staff of that researcher can make a tremendous amount of difference in the quality of life of the research animals.   Does that make sense?  
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~flower~
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 09:40:31 AM »

Reasonable quality of life is debatable.    Roll Eyes     I just find it disgusting to do studies of that nature in order to see how animals can be fed food they shouldn't be eating and don't need.   

  So what do YOU feed Vet?  I'm sure people here would like to know what you consider a good food.
   Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 10:49:06 AM »

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main


heres a listing of some ingredients to avoid...

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2007, 11:30:05 AM »

i ate dog food a few times in college... just the dry stuff... it was ok  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2007, 12:35:31 PM »

i ate dog food a few times in college... just the dry stuff... it was ok  Smiley

yeah I did too.  BowWow with Equal and milk tastes the same as GrapeNuts Cereal.   
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~flower~
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2007, 01:46:03 PM »

So what do you feed your dogs?
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2007, 02:14:01 PM »

So what do you feed your dogs?

You know, no matter what I answer on this one, I'm going to get slammed.... 

I feed all of my dogs a commercially available dog food.  I'm not saying more than that because of the bias that will result from my answer.   I personally have no brand loyalty.   I feed the brand I feed because my wife gets it at wholesale cost where she works, my dogs love the taste of it, they produce a relatively small amount of feces, and they are healthy with none of the apparent "allergy" issues associated with some dogs and commercial diets.  That brand has changed through the years based on finances (its difficult to feed 5 large breed dogs on two resident/intern salaries).  I also feed the food I feed because I live much of my life out of a cans of chicken and protein shakes with microwaved potatos and vegetables.  I dont' have the time or energy to cook and balance a diet when I've had what I consider to be success feeding a commercial diet.  Hell, I don't have time to cook my own food, much less the dogs.   

There, answer your question? 
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2007, 02:16:34 PM »

So what do you feed your dogs?


more importantly, what will you feed your WOOO when I move in?   Grin
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2007, 02:37:27 PM »

You know, no matter what I answer on this one, I'm going to get slammed.... 

I feed all of my dogs a commercially available dog food.  I'm not saying more than that because of the bias that will result from my answer.   I personally have no brand loyalty.   I feed the brand I feed because my wife gets it at wholesale cost where she works, my dogs love the taste of it, they produce a relatively small amount of feces, and they are healthy with none of the apparent "allergy" issues associated with some dogs and commercial diets.  That brand has changed through the years based on finances (its difficult to feed 5 large breed dogs on two resident/intern salaries).  I also feed the food I feed because I live much of my life out of a cans of chicken and protein shakes with microwaved potatos and vegetables.  I dont' have the time or energy to cook and balance a diet when I've had what I consider to be success feeding a commercial diet.  Hell, I don't have time to cook my own food, much less the dogs.   

There, answer your question? 

so....

gravy train?

 Grin
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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2007, 03:02:16 PM »



I feed the brand I feed because my wife gets it at wholesale cost where she works, my dogs love the taste of it, they produce a relatively small amount of feces, and they are healthy with none of the apparent "allergy" issues associated with some dogs and commercial diets. 

Great excerpt from that post because coming from an actual VETERINARIAN it shows that dogs do not need to be fed raw food in order to be more like animals "in the wild".  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  I don't need to switch my dog from Eagle Pack Holistic Select to BARF because it is "technically", and "on paper" better for them, WHICH I DO NOT ARGUE.  I just don't think any dog should be moved off of any food that keeps them healthy, energetic, and happy.
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2007, 03:05:45 PM »

You know, no matter what I answer on this one, I'm going to get slammed.... 

I feed all of my dogs a commercially available dog food.  I'm not saying more than that because of the bias that will result from my answer.   I personally have no brand loyalty.   I feed the brand I feed because my wife gets it at wholesale cost where she works, my dogs love the taste of it, they produce a relatively small amount of feces, and they are healthy with none of the apparent "allergy" issues associated with some dogs and commercial diets.  That brand has changed through the years based on finances (its difficult to feed 5 large breed dogs on two resident/intern salaries).  I also feed the food I feed because I live much of my life out of a cans of chicken and protein shakes with microwaved potatos and vegetables.  I dont' have the time or energy to cook and balance a diet when I've had what I consider to be success feeding a commercial diet.  Hell, I don't have time to cook my own food, much less the dogs.   

There, answer your question? 


  I get slammed all the time, yet I still stand up and say what I do and why I do it.

  I figure if you can go and post why doing this is good, or why doing this is bad, you can certainly say what it is you do or don't do. 

  If people should respect and take into consideration when you post about stuff, maybe you should go beyond just lip service and stand behind what you do.

 If you are afraid to say what you feed, then maybe YOU have the problem with it.




          Grin
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2007, 03:09:29 PM »

Great excerpt from that post because coming from an actual VETERINARIAN it shows that dogs do not need to be fed raw food in order to be more like animals "in the wild".  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  I don't need to switch my dog from Eagle Pack Holistic Select to BARF because it is "technically", and "on paper" better for them, WHICH I DO NOT ARGUE.  I just don't think any dog should be moved off of any food that keeps them healthy, energetic, and happy.




 Yet the VETERINARIAN won't say what he feeds? 

Being that people want to know what Vet thinks on subjects (even I do!) I think this is probably one of the questions people want answered because they listen to what he says.   He has posted about what to look for in a food etc, so what does HE feed?


 I think his choice would be a good balance to what people hear me saying is my choice. 

 



    And since I won't be around as much, Vet will be the main side to get info from. 

   Whether anyone has ever agreed or disagreed with anything I have posted I always tried to provide as much info, actual studies, links to more info, pros and cons, my personal reasons, experiences, and what and why I have made the choices I have made or the recommendations I have. 

  Good Luck, some of what I have posted proves that all the info is not forthcoming from the "professionals" we are supposed to trust.  (that is not directed at Vet, though he was unaware of some studies and info that contradict what most vets say to do).
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 03:26:39 PM »


  Being that people want to know what Vet thinks on subjects (even I do!) I think this is probably one of the questions people want answered because they listen to what he says.   He has posted about what to look for in a food etc, so what does HE feed?


 I think his choice would be a good balance to what people hear me saying is my choice. 

 


Flower I understand that, but in defense of Vet, it doesn't matter what he feeds, because his dog is not everyone else's dog.  I know a two dogs, both from the same litter, who don't like Canidae.  Loose stools and mad gas.  Plato on the other hand was on Canidae from like 6 months to 17 or 18 months and was perfect on it, although I switched to Eagle Pack in hopes of a little more predictability with bowel movements, and it helped.

I break your balls all the time because of the raw food thing and I am not arguing that it is PROBABLY the best for a dog.  But, it isn't the only food for a dog.  If Vet's dog is doing well on Science Diet or something, then so be it.
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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 03:33:09 PM »

If I, a die hard raw feeder, can take the time to look at kibbles and do research to try and find a recommendation or 2 to give people that want to feed kibble, or what to look for in one, then I don't think it is asking much of someone people respect here, what he feeds.

I have seen other people ask him that question in the past and he has ignored it (like he tried this time, but he knows I will just keep asking it til he responds  Grin)

  What if I told people to stay away from this or that or said do this or whatever yet wouldn't say what I actually do for my dogs? 

Hell most of the shit I post I have to back up a few times over with studies or at minimum good peer reviewed articles! 

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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 03:42:19 PM »

If I, a die hard raw feeder, can take the time to look at kibbles and do research to try and find a recommendation or 2 to give people that want to feed kibble, or what to look for in one, then I don't think it is asking much of someone people respect here, what he feeds.

I have seen other people ask him that question in the past and he has ignored it (like he tried this time, but he knows I will just keep asking it til he responds  Grin)

  What if I told people to stay away from this or that or said do this or whatever yet wouldn't say what I actually do for my dogs? 

Hell most of the shit I post I have to back up a few times over with studies or at minimum good peer reviewed articles! 



Flower, when have I ever made forboding dietary recommendations---as in You MUST FEED THIS DIET?  I don't for a reason.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are many, many different commercial dog foods out there.  Some are way better than others.  I also think the average American can't balance their own diet, so its unrealistic to expect them to do it for their pet.  Homemade diets need to be carefully prepared to prevent dietary imbalances. 
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 04:08:27 PM »

Flower, when have I ever made forboding dietary recommendations---as in You MUST FEED THIS DIET?  I don't for a reason.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are many, many different commercial dog foods out there.  Some are way better than others.  I also think the average American can't balance their own diet, so its unrealistic to expect them to do it for their pet.  Homemade diets need to be carefully prepared to prevent dietary imbalances. 

 I don't believe I asked you what you think people MUST feed, I asked what YOU feed.   I have seen others ask you that same question. 

 Considering I don't feed kibble but have recommended a brand or 2 in the past, I thought maybe someone who actually FEEDS kibble and isn't some rumdumb, might say what he feeds. 

  If not just post your bank account and routing info instead, that's not very personal.   Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 05:00:04 PM »

I feed my dog Kit Kats, Harbo Gummy Bears & Miller Genuine Draft.


He looks happy to me.......except for the Hershy Squirts
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