Some facts about muslims and the Islam

[tu_holmes]

You are right but you need to tell me what is the difference between a suicide bombing of a busy market and a rocket attack on a Hospital of sick adults and kids?

Well, one is done in the name of crazy and the other is done in the name of a religion?

[Hedgehog]

I think a lot of people in this thread are making valid points:

BFury, the Muslim community seems to have a big problem becoming secular, good point. Although Islam isn't 2000 years old, it's approx 1400 years old. This is actually something interesting, because 500 years ago, how secular were our societies?

There are those who argues that Islam is 500 years after Christianity in its development. Well, I think we don't have 500 years, and that there is another difference: The Qu'ran is supposedly the direct words of Allah, leaving no room for interpretation to our modern times.

The Muslim culture and the Western Democracy aren't kosher. They don't mix. That's a big problem.

You have lots of tolerant individuals in our society that doesn't want to see the errors of the Muslim culture. Somehow, they think these people are excused by their culture to not treat women like equals, to have different laws.

We can never accept the Muslim culture. But we must accept and help the Muslims, learn them democracy.

Finally, "modern" Muslims, those who claims to be Muslims, but live just like a regular bloke, don't do the Ramadan, and don't follow the preachings of Muhammad (PBUH), they're not living the Muslim way.

Either you follow the Qu'ran 100%. Or you don't. There's no in between. Or some "modern day Islam version". Because the Qu'ran was written by Allah, and Allah is without flaws. So if you want to make adjustments to the Qu'ran, then you're obviously not believing in Allah as an almighty God.

[Stark]

I think a lot of people in this thread are making valid points:

Either you follow the Qu'ran 100%. Or you don't. There's no in between. Or some "modern day Islam version". Because the Qu'ran was written by Allah, and Allah is without flaws. So if you want to make adjustments to the Qu'ran, then you're obviously not believing in Allah as an almighty God.

That's rubbish Hedge, they have different parts of Islam that modernice as much as the Christians have. Bahia for example has been founded 1963 in Iran it's a mix between Christian and Islam, Participants in the Bahia faith believe in the spiritual unity of all humankind. The Bahia faith is actually quite open and tolerant when it comes to other religions and belief systems, and that is only one example.

The Problem is that when people think of Islam they automatically think of Woman oppressed, man with long beard hitting their woman and doing hate speeches against the west, the Islam or the people precising Islam I have seen couldn't be further from the truth.

[Nordic Superman]

Stark you are an idiot.

You source is bias for a start and comes directly from propganda by islamic institutions.

Muslims follow a religion of peace, mercy, and forgiveness, and the majority have nothing to do with the extremely grave events which have come to be associated with their faith.

False:

Islam isn't a religion of peace. It's whole principle revolves around submitting to a god and gods law (sharia). Within Islamic jurisprudence, jihad is usually taken to mean military exertion against non-Muslims. Jihad is both defensive and to expand the islamic regime.

The Arabic word 'Islam' simply means 'submission', and derives from a word meaning 'peace'

False:

The word Islam means "submission", or the total surrender of oneself to God. Peace and the name islam have no association.

They believe that the Divine Law, the Shari'a, should be taken very seriously, which is why issues related to religion are still so important.

Are you aware what sharia law is? Do you wish for a primer?

Who is Muhammad?

Do you wish for a primer on muhammads behaviour? The majority of which is dispicable. Note the increase in violence as the koran progresses and islam gains adherents. Coincicdence?

Among the reasons for the rapid and peaceful spread of Islam was the simplicity of its doctrine - Islam calls for faith in only One God worthy of worship. It also repeatedly instructs man to use his powers of intelligence and observation.

False. Islamic spread was due almost entirely via the sword. How can you be so STUPID to believe this tripe you've posted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/assassins.htm

LOTS OF EVIDENCE REFUTING YOUR POST.

[Nordic Superman]

That's rubbish Hedge, they have different parts of Islam that modernice as much as the Christians have. Bahia for example has been founded 1963 in Iran it's a mix between Christian and Islam, Participants in the Bahia faith believe in the spiritual unity of all humankind. The Bahia faith is actually quite open and tolerant when it comes to other religions and belief systems, and that is only one example.

The Problem is that when people think of Islam they automatically think of Woman oppressed, man with long beard hitting their woman and doing hate speeches against the west, the Islam or the people precising Islam I have seen couldn't be further from the truth.

Hedge is correct.

The koran is a copy of "the mother of books" the book that has been at the side of god for eternity. It is infallible and all knowing. There are passages in the koran that state you will burn in hell fire and allah himself will torture you for enternity if you do not follow the koran in it's completeness.

Islam is repressive towards women, the men do have long beards. Muslims do seem to be vocal in hating the west whilst living on state pensions e.g. Britain. So, what's your point?

Most people act fine on a face to face relationship. Murderers go through life being loved and liked by the unknowing.

You my friend are a typical soon to be muslim convert.

Educate yourself from a different angle:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/

[Stark]

Stark you are an idiot.



LOTS OF EVIDENCE REFUTING YOUR POST.

I told you before if you cannot play by the simple rules of an adult discusion than don't bother replying to my post...

[Nordic Superman]

I told you before if you cannot play by the simple rules of an adult discusion than don't bother replying to my post...

Intelligent adults don't dismiss extremely strong evidence countering their position on a subject.

Only naive sheep do.

Funny thing is, my information benefits YOU. "Oh I won't listen because he called me, even tho if I did listen I would see a new perspective on thing", what a fucking child.

You're a cheerleader for the politically correct socialist regime in Europe... WELL DONE!

[Stark]

Intelligent adults don't dismiss extremely strong evidence countering their position on a subject.

Only naive sheep do.

Funny thing is, my information benefits YOU. "Oh I won't listen because he called me, even tho if I did listen I would see a new perspective on thing", what a fucking child.

You're a cheerleader for the politically correct socialist regime in Europe... WELL DONE!

Look it's extremely simple, people have differnet opinion I know I shouldn't even explain this to you, I do fully respect your view I do respect that you don't share the same believe as myself in probably many things, does that mean we cannot have a discussion anymore? of course not this is what makes a discussion worth while and fun, otherwise what are you going to discuss if both parties share the same opinion... all you can do than is to agree were is the fun in that.
A discussion is not about winning or loosing (however I'm not surprised you think so) it's about challenging each other and about stimulating each other on a mental level, and unfortunately there is no room for name calling.
Its fun to see that especially people like yourself don't have the stamina to discuss anything without eventually name calling, what en phisize me to believe that you have no more arguments left and have to fall back to cheep shot.

[Hedgehog]

Look it's extremely simple, people have differnet opinion I know I shouldn't even explain this to you, I do fully respect your view I do respect that you don't share the same believe as myself in probably many things, does that mean we cannot have a discussion anymore? of course not this is what makes a discussion worth while and fun, otherwise what are you going to discuss if both parties share the same opinion... all you can do than is to agree were is the fun in that.
A discussion is not about winning or loosing (however I'm not surprised you think so) it's about challenging each other and about stimulating each other on a mental level, and unfortunately there is no room for name calling.
Its fun to see that especially people like yourself don't have the stamina to discuss anything without eventually name calling, what en phisize me to believe that you have no more arguments left and fall back to cheep shot.

Nordic may use harsh language at times, but facts are facts: The Qu'ran is perfect, the direct words of Allah.

Those who think you can have equality between genders in a Muslim society, they're either not informed about Islam, or doesn't have the balls to cut their ties with a religion that has horrible values.

[Nordic Superman]

Look it's extremely simple, people have differnet opinion I know I shouldn't even explain this to you, I do fully respect your view I do respect that you don't share the same believe as myself in probably many things, does that mean we cannot have a discussion anymore? of course not this is what makes a discussion worth while and fun, otherwise what are you going to discuss if both parties share the same opinion... all you can do than is to agree were is the fun in that.
A discussion is not about winning or loosing (however I'm not surprised you think so) it's about challenging each other and about stimulating each other on a mental level, and unfortunately there is no room for name calling.
Its fun to see that especially people like yourself don't have the stamina to discuss anything without eventually name calling, what en phisize me to believe that you have no more arguments left and have to fall back to cheep shot.

We can behave like pseudo intellectuals on a bodybuilding forum all day if you would like.

People have to get somewhat aggressive with peoples like yourself because you detract from the argument. You do not refute any of the statements I have made in this thread.

I don't know whether your critique of my discussion style is a guise to veil the fact you have no answers to my statements or not. Of course my methods are debate are not like the koran, they are fallible.

Adieu good sir.

[Stark]

Nordic may use harsh language at times, but facts are facts: The Qu'ran is perfect, the direct words of Allah.

Those who think you can have equality between genders in a Muslim society, they're either not informed about Islam, or doesn't have the balls to cut their ties with a religion that has horrible values.

The post you quoted has nothing to do with his arguments, as I have said despite of himself I for once fully respect his Opinion however I refuse to discuss interesting topics with people that cannot post more than two arguments without calling somebody an idiot..
I cannot believe you don't understand that, and actually call it "harsh language" cursing a lot and underlining your arguments with a lot of fucks and other curse words is harsh language, calling somebody a childish sheep idiot in an adult conversation makes you look incredible stupid and not very mature.

[Hedgehog]

Some people argue foolishly that "Muhammad did improve the situation for women".

And this is true, he did. For his time, he made lots of social reforms.

These people then argues that Muhammad wasn't able to give women equality then, or that if he would've lived today, he would've done it.

But then, you're subscribing human limits to Allah, and his prophet.

But the Qu'ran isn't a worldy book. It's a divine book, and what is in it doesn't get old.

[Hedgehog]

The post you quoted has nothing to do with his arguments, as I have said despite of himself I for once fully respect his Opinion however I refuse to discuss interesting topics with people that cannot post more than two arguments without calling somebody an idiot..
I cannot believe you don't understand that, and actually call it "harsh language" cursing a lot and underlining your arguments with a lot of fucks and other curse words is harsh language, calling somebody a childish sheep idiot in an adult conversation makes you look incredible stupid and not very mature.

Ok. But lets get back to the issue at hand then.

[Stark]

We can behave like pseudo intellectuals on a bodybuilding forum all day if you would like.

People have to get somewhat aggressive with peoples like yourself because you detract from the argument. You do not refute any of the statements I have made in this thread.

I don't know whether your critique of my discussion style is a guise to veil the fact you have no answers to my statements or not. Of course my methods are debate are not like the koran, they are fallible.

Adieu good sir.

You can do that on the Gossip and any other board for all I care, but not on this board (that is my opinion and I stand by it) and I don't detract from the arguments I COUNTER the arguments with arguments from myself... THAT is what a discussion is all about, not to roll over and to admit you being wrong all along
I would be downright disappointed if you would do that, I enjoyed our intellectual correspondence immensely until you went for the cheap shots.

[Stark]

Ok. But lets get back to the issue at hand then.

Of course we can, you have never responded to my counter Argument saying there are reformed and modern Islamic believes as in Bahia who is a mix of Christian and Islamic believe.

[Nordic Superman]

You can do that on the Gossip and any other board for all I care, but not on this board (that is my opinion and I stand by it) and I don't detract from the arguments I COUNTER the arguments with arguments from myself... THAT is what a discussion is all about, not to roll over and to admit you being wrong all along
I would be downright disappointed if you would do that, I enjoyed our intellectual correspondence immensely until you went for the cheap shots.

So I await your counter on my statements regarding islam

[Stark]

Sure thing I will have to quote different things I don't agree with...

The koran is a copy of "the mother of books" the book that has been at the side of god for eternity. It is infallible and all knowing. There are passages in the koran that state you will burn in hell fire and allah himself will torture you for enternity if you do not follow the koran in it's completeness.

Kinda similar to the Bibel don't you think? I don't see a problem with that since I don't believe in Hell or Heaven.

Islam is repressive towards women, the men do have long beards. Muslims do seem to be vocal in hating the west whilst living on state pensions e.g. Britain. So, what's your point?

I have to agree with you somehow on the repressive issue towards woman, however there are Millions and Millions of woman who seem to choose this lifestyle.
Regarding the hate "they" seem to vocal, don't you think it's kinda odd that we lifed amongst Muslims for years and years and never had any groundbreaking issues?

Most people act fine on a face to face relationship. Murderers go through life being loved and liked by the unknowing.

I'm not quit sure what you're argument here is, please elaborate.

You my friend are a typical soon to be Muslim convert.

Very wrong that means just because I'm also immensely interested in my countries past that mean I will end up being a Nazi? I would never "convert" to Islam simply because I believe that ALL religions have nothing to do with God or what ever will wait for us after we are dead I have my own theories but I will not share them with anybody here since I think they are private, trust me I have stopped being a Christian like the Church wants me to be since I reached the age of reason.

Educate yourself from a different angle:

Nuh of course I do lol I read about 3 online Newspapers every day, One Conservative One in the Middle an one more social/left, to form your own opinion you need to discover both parts otherwise I would just babble what ever I think sounds best right?

[Nordic Superman]

Sure thing I will have to quote different things I don't agree with...
Kinda similar to the Bibel don't you think? I don't see a problem with that since I don't believe in Hell or Heaven.
I have to agree with you somehow on the repressive issue towards woman, however there are Millions and Millions of woman who seem to choose this lifestyle.
Regarding the hate "they" seem to vocal, don't you think it's kinda odd that we lifed amongst Muslims for years and years and never had any groundbreaking issues?
I'm not quit sure what you're argument here is, please elaborate.
Very wrong that means just because I'm also immensely interested in my countries past that mean I will end up being a Nazi? I would never "convert" to Islam simply because I believe that ALL religions have nothing to do with God or what ever will wait for us after we are dead I have my own theories but I will not share them with anybody here since I think they are private, trust me I have stopped being a Christian like the Church wants me to be since I reached the age of reason.
Nuh of course I do lol I read about 3 online Newspapers every day, One Conservative One in the Middle an one more social/left, to form your own opinion you need to discover both parts otherwise I would just babble what ever I think sounds best right?

Firstly, the bible is mutually exclusive of this discussion. It's not required to mention the Bible when discussing islam. Criticising one thing then shifting the blame because something else does it isn't logical.

But on that subject, I don't believe the bible to be the infallible word of God. The ten commandments however as depicted in the bible ARE the direct words of god. The BIG difference is the core: the bible doesn't project itself as the infallible word of God like the extreme ways in which the koran does.

They don't chose that lifestyle. A minority do of course, but the vast majority don't. Do you think I chose to be baptised?

The murderer thing was basically to say: they will tell you what you want to you face. Muslims will tell you the nice aspects. Murder/jihad doesn't motivate the majority of people so it makes sense to advertise the less harsh and commendable aspects of islam. This gets more adherents. Getting more adherents plays a big part in your role as a muslim.

Of course the thought of jihad does motivate some people, and the people most likely to commet jihad are converts. This is psychological aspect of people character that draws them.

It's only when you get a deeper understanding of islam (outside that of what the muslims want you to think, and also what the socialist regime of Europe wants you to believe) that the majour fault lines are visible.

[Stark]

Firstly, the bible is mutually exclusive of this discussion. It's not required to mention the Bible when discussing islam. Criticising one thing then shifting the blame because something else does it isn't logical.

But on that subject, I don't believe the bible to be the infallible word of God. The ten commandments however as depicted in the bible ARE the direct words of god. The BIG difference is the core: the bible doesn't project itself as the infallible word of God like the extreme ways in which the koran does.

They don't chose that lifestyle. A minority do of course, but the vast majority don't. Do you think I chose to be baptised?

The murderer thing was basically to say: they will tell you what you want to you face. Muslims will tell you the nice aspects. Murder/jihad doesn't motivate the majority of people so it makes sense to advertise the less harsh and commendable aspects of islam. This gets more adherents. Getting more adherents plays a big part in your role as a muslim.

Of course the thought of jihad does motivate some people, and the people most likely to commet jihad are converts. This is psychological aspect of people character that draws them.

It's only when you get a deeper understanding of islam (outside that of what the muslims want you to think, and also what the socialist regime of Europe wants you to believe) that the majour fault lines are visible.

I made a parallel between the Bible and Islam simply because I wasn;t sure why you made that statement of hell and fire since you can find the exact same thing in the bible.
And again in many points I agree with you here, I do also believe that the Islam like any other religion is a mindspinning way of controlling people for the soul purpose of a view old men, however all my discussions with you is that I do not accept that most Muslims would choose the way of Jihad (a term that doesn't mean holy war in itself but has become a catch phrase by the Western Media and people in the radical Islamic underground to server the pourpus they need).
I sadens me that it only needs a handfull from a Billion people to commit a crime like 9/11, but does that mean we cannot trust all of them?
And I mainly form my opinion by thinking rational, people want to survive have a nice life prosper and get some where for their children's sake, only very view of these see themself pushed to the take the extreme I believe, and these view people are not enough for me to condemn a futher billion of people simply by the action a view 1000.
.

[Nordic Superman]

The majority of muslims won't commit jihad.

That doesn't falsify the FACT that jihad is a requirement put upon them by god.

Jihad doesn't directly mean wage war. It does however mean take land in the name of islam. A lot of leftists report jihad only means a personal inner struggle. Totally fictitious statement.

The fact is I was criticising the title of your thread and your opening post which is both false, bias and only serves to protect the ignorant against the truths of islam.

In your opening post you didn't list your motives which now seem to be: not all muslims are bad (I agree) etc.

I honestly believe the MAJORITY of muslims don't see the non-muslim as equals. Sure they can be nice to my face etc, but at the end of the day... behind closed doors...

[Hedgehog]

Of course we can, you have never responded to my counter Argument saying there are reformed and modern Islamic believes as in Bahia who is a mix of Christian and Islamic believe.

Sure I did.

I stated that Islam cannot be reformed, because if it is, then the words of the Qu'ran are deemed less than perfect, which they cannot be, since they are the words, the direct words, of Allah.

That's where a big problem lies.

And we need to recognize this. Ie, Islam is fundalistic in its very own structure, by the way it's constructed.

If you're Muslim, and don't agree with absolutely everything in the Qu'ran, you're actually saying that Allah isn't Almighty.

I also agree with Nordic in that you're making a classic left wing apologist mistake by bringing in Christianity and its evils into the discussion. There's no logic in doing that, since we're discussing Islam here.

I disagree with Nordic in his description of regimes in Europe as "Socialist", it's simply not true, and he probably knows it.

Essentially it boils down to this:

If a Muslim lived like an enlightened, democratic person who believed in equality between genders... Do you think he would still be following the ways of the Qu'ran?

[headhuntersix]

Pretty  good debate...it all boils down to a few facts. Of the 19 major conflicts 17 involve Muslims. They are driven by religious ideology vs political which is much harder to fight and defeat. That fact alone has returned us from the 150-200 or so year break we've had with major religious wars. Ideological wars involve sides that both want to win and are willing to except something less, to survive if they come out on the short end. Both have economies to protect. These nutbags don't. They are driven by the desire to die for their cause, they don't care about money other then a means to an end. They are fueled by hate and a book that is 1500 years out of date.

[Nordic Superman]

I disagree with Nordic in his description of regimes in Europe as "Socialist", it's simply not true, and he probably knows it.

He knows it but his foreseight cannot be faulted.

I know the path we're on, you and your comrades can continue to be in denial tho.

[Hedgehog]

Pretty  good debate...it all boils down to a few facts. Of the 19 major conflicts 17 involve Muslims. They are driven by religious ideology vs political which is much harder to fight and defeat. That fact alone has returned us from the 150-200 or so year break we've had with major religious wars. Ideological wars involve sides that both want to win and are willing to except something less, to survive if they come out on the short end. Both have economies to protect. These nutbags don't. They are driven by the desire to die for their cause, they don't care about money other then a means to an end. They are fueled by hate and a book that is 1500 years out of date.

Good point about the out of date book. It's very important.

But what's often forgotten, is the question on how to solve the problem. I believe confrontation, aggression, is wrong. Then, you only fuel the fundamentalists more arguments.

Instead, I'd like to see more diplomacy, more economical ties between our cultures, tie them up with us, instigating democracy there.

And stop the fcuking leeching of their natural resources. That will forever create a reason for people in the Middle Eastern region to look for a unifying channel, which Islam is.

[headhuntersix]

I think the leeching thing is to an extent overblown. U have Kuwait..alot of rich people. UAE/Qater etc all doing well. While Saudi Arabia pushes extreme Islamic laws, religious police/laws against women etc. They don't spred their wealth around as some arab countries have been able to do. We get blamed for this. Israel gets blamed as propoganda for these governments keeping their own people down.