Author Topic: The Emptiness of Theology  (Read 2748 times)

columbusdude82

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The Emptiness of Theology
« on: September 21, 2007, 09:20:31 AM »
Brilliant article from a brilliant man  ;D
(Emphasis added by me)

The Emptiness of Theology
by Richard Dawkins
from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 18, Number 2.

A dismally unctuous editorial in the British newspaper the Independent recently asked for a reconciliation between science and "theology." It remarked that "People want to know as much as possible about their origins." I certainly hope they do, but what on earth makes one think that theology has anything useful to say on the subject?

Science is responsible for the following knowledge about our origins. We know approximately when the universe began and why it is largely hydrogen. We know why stars form and what happens in their interiors to convert hydrogen to the other elements and hence give birth to chemistry in a world of physics. We know the fundamental principles of how a world of chemistry can become biology through the arising of self-replicating molecules. We know how the principle of self-replication gives rise, through Darwinian selection, to all life, including humans.

It is science and science alone that has given us this knowledge and given it, moreover, in fascinating, over-whelming, mutually confirming detail. On every one of these questions theology has held a view that has been conclusively proved wrong. Science has eradicated smallpox, can immunize against most previously deadly viruses, can kill most previously deadly bacteria. Theology has done nothing but talk of pestilence as the wages of sin. Science can predict when a particular comet will reappear and, to the second, when the next eclipse will appear. Science has put men on the moon and hurtled reconnaissance rockets around Saturn and Jupiter. Science can tell you the age of a particular fossil and that the Turin Shroud is a medieval fake. Science knows the precise DNA instructions of several viruses and will, in the lifetime of many present readers, do the same for the human genome.

What has theology ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has theology ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? I have listened to theologians, read them, debated against them. I have never heard any of them ever say anything of the smallest use, anything that was not either platitudinously obvious or downright false. If all the achievements of scientists were wiped out tomorrow, there would be no doctors but witch doctors, no transport faster than horses, no computers, no printed books, no agriculture beyond subsistence peasant farming. If all the achievements of theologians were wiped out tomorrow, would anyone notice the smallest difference? Even the bad achievements of scientists, the bombs, and sonar-guided whaling vessels work! The achievements of theologians don't do anything, don't affect anything, don't mean anything. What makes anyone think that "theology" is a subject at all?

OzmO

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2007, 10:23:10 AM »
I see the basis of your argument with loco as being his hatred of science.  If loco stated he was a solid creationist i believe you'd correct.  but he hasn't and although he's big on the bible being the 100% word of God, it seems he's questioned evolution becuase it is still full of holes.


This article is great but really it's overstating the obvious.

As bumbling as science has been in the last several hundred years it has brought about great advances and cures for many things.   

It is still however unable to explain so much more.

columbusdude82

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2007, 10:27:47 AM »
Quote
It is still however unable to explain so much more.

It can't explain those things YET.

And even if science can't explain something (yet), what on earth makes you think theology can? How can you trust the same people who brought you the talking-snake theory and "earthquakes and disease as the wages of sin" to explain something that the world's most brilliant minds can't explain YET?

OzmO

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2007, 03:43:46 PM »
It can't explain those things YET.

And even if science can't explain something (yet), what on earth makes you think theology can? How can you trust the same people who brought you the talking-snake theory and "earthquakes and disease as the wages of sin" to explain something that the world's most brilliant minds can't explain YET?

Very good points c-82,  but i don't look to theology to explain those things....never have.  Theology has served me in matters of the heart and soul.

theology has nothing to do with science.

columbusdude82

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2007, 04:56:36 PM »
Very good points c-82,  but i don't look to theology to explain those things....never have.  Theology has served me in matters of the heart and soul.

theology has nothing to do with science.

Yet theology is always seeking to meddle in science. Theologians, most of whom wouldn't know a stem cell from an electron, think they actually have something important to tell society and science.

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2007, 10:55:33 AM »
Yet theology is always seeking to meddle in science. Theologians, most of whom wouldn't know a stem cell from an electron, think they actually have something important to tell society and science.

i think your a little gun hoe on the science thing. you seem to think that spiritual discussions, philosophical discussions etc are all that matter. you seem to think that empirical, material things are all that exist. however, can i point out the fact that the mind is no were to be found, it is immaterial. you cant weigh a though, measure its length etc.. but you cannot deny it. tachyons are another immaterial thing that cannot be denied etc.. there are other examples. but i think if you go through life requiring empirical proof for all things your missing out. im not trying to argue rationally but im saying rather that spiritual matters give alot of people joy and happiness. i would say more so then technology. in psychology there are known happiness traps you might say, and things that provide happiness. none of them are material, none of them are found in science save health.


i think theology matters to alot of people. you just have a different view.

there are numerous prominent scientists that beleive in god, and beleive in a spiritual side. dawkins is the opposite.

if theology was gone tommorrow i think alot of people would miss it, namely the religious and spiritual people of this world. i think he is always over the top with regards to religion, but makes some good points.

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2007, 10:57:56 AM »
i always dislike the creationism views, the bullshit they sling at knowledge etc...

im as scientific as the next man, i just feel theres something more to life.

also, im aware that feelings are misleading and that beleif or faith is not rational on this matter, but that doesnt matter. if you try to rationalize it, after a while you'll figure out that you cant.

i could be wrong, or right, but im all for improving quality of life and i think faith, spirituality and science all do that to a degree.

columbusdude82

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2007, 10:06:38 PM »
i think your a little gun hoe on the science thing. you seem to think that spiritual discussions, philosophical discussions etc are all that matter. you seem to think that empirical, material things are all that exist. however, can i point out the fact that the mind is no were to be found, it is immaterial. you cant weigh a though, measure its length etc.. but you cannot deny it. tachyons are another immaterial thing that cannot be denied etc.. there are other examples. but i think if you go through life requiring empirical proof for all things your missing out. im not trying to argue rationally but im saying rather that spiritual matters give alot of people joy and happiness. i would say more so then technology. in psychology there are known happiness traps you might say, and things that provide happiness. none of them are material, none of them are found in science save health.


i think theology matters to alot of people. you just have a different view.

there are numerous prominent scientists that beleive in god, and beleive in a spiritual side. dawkins is the opposite.

if theology was gone tommorrow i think alot of people would miss it, namely the religious and spiritual people of this world. i think he is always over the top with regards to religion, but makes some good points.

Yes sir. I see your point. I know it is very important for a person to have a "spiritual" or "transcendent" dimension, and not just be a lean mean science machine. But I don't see why that transcendent dimension must involve superstition, gods, devils, heavens, hells, magic, myth and the like.

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2007, 04:15:27 AM »
Yes sir. I see your point. I know it is very important for a person to have a "spiritual" or "transcendent" dimension, and not just be a lean mean science machine. But I don't see why that transcendent dimension must involve superstition, gods, devils, heavens, hells, magic, myth and the like.

Very good, columbusdude82!   ;D

What do you think this spiritual dimension must involve?

columbusdude82

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2007, 06:03:48 AM »
Well, for me at least: music, art, literature, enjoyment of nature, contemplation, the companionship of friends and people I look up to, learning about the universe...

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2007, 08:48:35 AM »
Well, for me at least: music, art, literature, enjoyment of nature, contemplation, the companionship of friends and people I look up to, learning about the universe...


yes these are all the things i appreciate in life much more then the material things in my life.


OzmO

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2007, 09:20:55 AM »
Well,  I hate to think we are nothing but a piece of flesh with a consciousness destine to end as dust.

columbusdude82

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2007, 09:31:43 AM »
Well,  I hate to think we are nothing but a piece of flesh with a consciousness destine to end as dust.

Would you rather trick yourself into believing fairy tales instead?

OzmO

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2007, 09:45:53 AM »
Would you rather trick yourself into believing fairy tales instead?

You see this debate as so  polarize,  black or white.   I don't believe in those fairy tales any more than i believe we are a piece of flesh with a consciousness destine to end as dust.   

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2007, 12:27:40 PM »
You see this debate as so  polarize,  black or white.   I don't believe in those fairy tales

Yet a vast number of hard-core religious people do, and the problem arises when they try to force those beliefs on others, through meddling in the political process (in the US) or at the point of a gun (in places like the Middle East).



Quote
...any more than i believe we are a piece of flesh with a consciousness destine to end as dust.   


It's not a pleasant reality, but it's reality nonetheless.  Only the very strong can accept it, which is likely why humans are drawn to religion in the first place.  You can take comfort in the fact that after you're gone, you won't be around to lament your non existence.  It will be the same as it was before you were born.  Contemplation of death is far worse than death itself... that's why when I go I hope it happens quickly, so I don't have time to reflect on it.
Ron: "I am lazy."

columbusdude82

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2007, 04:01:46 PM »
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piece of flesh with a consciousness destine to end as dust.

I never said that's all we can be. Sure, that's the bare minimum, but we can be so much more. We can make so much more of life, but definitely not by believing magic and superstition...

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2007, 04:15:16 PM »
I never said that's all we can be. Sure, that's the bare minimum, but we can be so much more. We can make so much more of life, but definitely not by believing magic and superstition...

spiritually has nothing to do with magic and superstition.

But in the atheists world, there's no getting away from what you are.   meat with thoughts

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2007, 04:37:36 PM »
spiritually has nothing to do with magic and superstition.

But in the atheists world, there's no getting away from what you are.   meat with thoughts

You are still in the habit of generalizing: "the atheists," "the atheist world"...

"Atheist" is just a vague word that means "doesn't believe in a god." That's like saying "doesn't believe in Santa Clause."

Would you say "ASanta-ist children don't enjoy Christmas"? Or that "AToothfairy-ist children don't get money under their pillow"?

That's ridiculous. You are you. Yes, you are a pile of flesh and neurons and all that, but in your brief moment under the sun, you can make so much out of it.

You don't have to spend it cowering in front of the tired old deities of the iron age. Look up at the stars, better still, look through a telescope. See how glorious and majestic they are. Don't tell me burning bushes and virgin births come any where near as awesome!!!

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2007, 07:23:18 PM »
You are still in the habit of generalizing: "the atheists," "the atheist world"...

"Atheist" is just a vague word that means "doesn't believe in a god." That's like saying "doesn't believe in Santa Clause."

Would you say "ASanta-ist children don't enjoy Christmas"? Or that "AToothfairy-ist children don't get money under their pillow"?

That's ridiculous. You are you. Yes, you are a pile of flesh and neurons and all that, but in your brief moment under the sun, you can make so much out of it.

You don't have to spend it cowering in front of the tired old deities of the iron age. Look up at the stars, better still, look through a telescope. See how glorious and majestic they are. Don't tell me burning bushes and virgin births come any where near as awesome!!!

there are many arguments against the materialistic reductionist approach which have nothing to do with fairy tales for instance. santa claus is a fictional character that delivers presents, that has no purpose and is made of things already in existence. your mind cannot fathom that which doesnt already exist, a strange concept.

however, to beleive we are nothing more then neural matter whose life is a series of action potentials controlled by na/k and calcium and a few neurotransmitters is hard to swallow when your consider the transcendent nature of experience. consciousnous is such a nebolous entity in itself, but its harder to imagine that non-sentience created sentient beings. that we are literally frozen energy come alive from the the big bang on(obviously since the creation of baryonic matter via electromagnetic radiation). that is you have to beleive that a rock can become self sentient and achieve awarness, something if find ludicris(that doesnt mean it never occured though).

also many prominant neurologists such as eccles and penrose have views that are somewhat dualistic but not in the cartesian way.

i use to beleive in a benevolent creator simply because i was having a rough go of life. however, i have settled(not happily) on a more pantheistic god, or more towards spirituality like ozmo. i beleive there is more to life because of reasons like the above, and simply because i have a feeling there is(not rational, but faith is rational, and only retards rationalize things that cant be done ;D.



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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2007, 07:24:13 PM »
sorry for the double post, but i find arguments against science to be lacking, but arguments in spite of science and combined with knowledge to be useful.

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2007, 03:47:39 AM »
spiritually has nothing to do with magic and superstition.

But in the atheists world, there's no getting away from what you are.   meat with thoughts

Exactly! So what? Deal with it and make the best of it!
I hate the State.

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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2007, 05:25:42 PM »
Exactly! So what? Deal with it and make the best of it!

that is your belief, its like OZMO saying you have a soul and karma is in play so deal with it.


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Re: The Emptiness of Theology
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2007, 06:40:12 PM »
that is your belief, its like OZMO saying you have a soul and karma is in play so deal with it.



No; my beliefs have evidence and data to back them up, soul and karma have nothing but ancient mythology and superstition.
I hate the State.