Author Topic: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know  (Read 11901 times)

tu_holmes

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2007, 08:18:30 PM »
The war is totally legal... Congress voted on it, that makes it legal.

It's still WRONG.

Decker

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2007, 07:09:27 AM »
This is news?  Those in power make the rules.  That's what we elect them to do. 
I don't think so.  It can work that way sometimes but as our inept leader says, "let history judge...."

In the law there is a principle called stare decisis.  Existing court holdings affect and direct current cases.  That creates continuity.  That creates accountability.  The law might be unenforced, ignored or even suppressed for a while.  But it is there. 

For all the normalization in the media of this US led Crime Against Humanity in Iraq, International Law still exists and in that jurisdiction it can be shown that Bush is a war criminal no different than Pinochet, Eichmann or Himmler.

He may get away with it now but there is whole body of law out there that will catch up with him.

In the mean time, people like me will keep pointing this crime out.

Dos Equis

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2007, 08:58:10 AM »
I don't think so.  It can work that way sometimes but as our inept leader says, "let history judge...."

In the law there is a principle called stare decisis.  Existing court holdings affect and direct current cases.  That creates continuity.  That creates accountability.  The law might be unenforced, ignored or even suppressed for a while.  But it is there. 

For all the normalization in the media of this US led Crime Against Humanity in Iraq, International Law still exists and in that jurisdiction it can be shown that Bush is a war criminal no different than Pinochet, Eichmann or Himmler.

He may get away with it now but there is whole body of law out there that will catch up with him.

In the mean time, people like me will keep pointing this crime out.

Is the point of "stare decisis" to have courts make law or interpret existing law?  The legislature can change the law anytime they want.  It's the court's role to interpret whatever law the legislature passes. 

And Tu is absolutely right:  Congress endorsed the war already, multiple times.  You are a voice in the wilderness mang.  :)

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2007, 05:38:44 PM »
This is news?  Those in power make the rules.  That's what we elect them to do. 

They're also elected to both uphold, and follow the rules already in place.
w

tu_holmes

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2007, 05:45:05 PM »
They're also elected to both uphold, and follow the rules already in place.

If they don't it is the peoples job to remove them from the post they hold.

Who do you really hold responsible? I personally hold the people who vote them in as the responsible party then. If I don't like my officials, I vote for the other guy... end of story.

Dos Equis

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2007, 05:52:05 PM »
They're also elected to both uphold, and follow the rules already in place.

O.K.  And?

If you're talking about the war, Bush was given authority to use force, he used it, Congress endorsed his use of force at least twice afterwards, then continued to fund his use of force, repeatedly. 

tu_holmes

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2007, 05:54:15 PM »
O.K.  And?

If you're talking about the war, Bush was given authority to use force, he used it, Congress endorsed his use of force at least twice afterwards, then continued to fund his use of force, repeatedly. 


Hell, they still DO!!!

They still fund it... because the Dems are pussies!

Instead of saying, you know what, we're not funding this war, and being afraid to look like they're not "supporting the  troops", they just keep on giving money to the damn war... PISSES ME OFF!

Have some balls you bitches.


drkaje

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2007, 06:00:43 PM »
This is news?  Those in power make the rules.  That's what we elect them to do. 

Beyond being a millionaire, it's naive to believe any politician serves your intrests. It's nice they can serve up palatable bullshit but foolish to believe the average citizen is a priority to them. Things just don't work that way and haven't for a long, long time.

We've gone past deciding between the lessor of two evils to picking agreeable degrees. :)

I understand why people hawkish for the wars want to believe that way. On an emotional level, we're not done getting revenge for 911. On an intellectual level
(to the average American) all Arabs are the same. Most people don't even realize Iranians aren't Arabs, LOL! I digress, the point is.. accepting Bush and his policies were dead wrong means all those people (American, Iraqi, etc...) died for nothing. Anti-war people wouldn't emotionally and on a greater (more important) scale be able to politically survive another attack if they don't give Bush free reign... they're too afraid.

Ultimately, this has gone to the point where 'truth' has no value whatsover. Kind of sad when you think about it.

BB, the original saying was: It's called the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules. :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2007, 06:05:07 PM »
Hell, they still DO!!!

They still fund it... because the Dems are pussies!

Instead of saying, you know what, we're not funding this war, and being afraid to look like they're not "supporting the  troops", they just keep on giving money to the damn war... PISSES ME OFF!

Have some balls you bitches.



True.  No stones.  They got the majority by running against the war and then wimped out after taking office, focusing instead on things like minimum wage.  Besides, their fingerprints are all over this war.   

Dos Equis

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2007, 06:09:32 PM »
Beyond being a millionaire, it's naive to believe any politician serves your intrests. It's nice they can serve up palatable bullshit but foolish to believe the average citizen is a priority to them. Things just don't work that way and haven't for a long, long time.

We've gone past deciding between the lessor of two evils to picking agreeable degrees. :)

I understand why people hawkish for the wars want to believe that way. On an emotional level, we're not done getting revenge for 911. On an intellectual level
(to the average American) all Arabs are the same. Most people don't even realize Iranians aren't Arabs, LOL! I digress, the point is.. accepting Bush and his policies were dead wrong means all those people (American, Iraqi, etc...) died for nothing. Anti-war people wouldn't emotionally and on a greater (more important) scale be able to politically survive another attack if they don't give Bush free reign... they're too afraid.

Ultimately, this has gone to the point where 'truth' has no value whatsover. Kind of sad when you think about it.

BB, the original saying was: It's called the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules. :)

I agree to an extent.  Yes the golden rule applies.  Yes those who donate the most money get a seat at the table and are first in line.  No question that many politicians are not about principle first, but are concerned about their donors and what will keep them in office. 

That said, regarding the war, I believe it was the right thing to do.  My opinion isn't based on being a war hawk, fear, preserving any kind of beliefs, etc. 

tu_holmes

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2007, 06:10:18 PM »
True.  No stones.  They got the majority by running against the war and then wimped out after taking office, focusing instead on things like minimum wage.  Besides, their fingerprints are all over this war.   

I fucking hate both parties so badly I could spit.

It sucks when you have to vote for the one you hate the 'least'.

drkaje

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2007, 06:39:27 PM »
I agree to an extent.  Yes the golden rule applies.  Yes those who donate the most money get a seat at the table and are first in line.  No question that many politicians are not about principle first, but are concerned about their donors and what will keep them in office. 

That said, regarding the war, I believe it was the right thing to do.  My opinion isn't based on being a war hawk, fear, preserving any kind of beliefs, etc. 


How has invading Iraq made us safer?

Dos Equis

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2007, 12:32:14 AM »
How has invading Iraq made us safer?

We removed an evil and dangerous man with unlimited resources who the world believed was trying to acquire WMDs.  The same man who plundered his country's resources, sponsored terrorism, and would probably do whatever he could to help anyone who wanted to attack the U.S.  Although we obviously never found WMDs, I suspect he moved whatever he had out of the country.  There is also no legitimate reason to have a billion dollars under your mattress (we found somewhere close to this amount in one of his palaces).   

We sent to a strong message to the rest of the world that you don't mess with the U.S.  Makes talks with countries like Iran much easier, because they know we're not shy about a dropping a bomb or two. 

There have been no terrorist attacks since we invaded. 

drkaje

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2007, 04:34:02 AM »
We removed an evil and dangerous man with unlimited resources who the world believed was trying to acquire WMDs.  The same man who plundered his country's resources, sponsored terrorism, and would probably do whatever he could to help anyone who wanted to attack the U.S.  Although we obviously never found WMDs, I suspect he moved whatever he had out of the country.  There is also no legitimate reason to have a billion dollars under your mattress (we found somewhere close to this amount in one of his palaces).   

We sent to a strong message to the rest of the world that you don't mess with the U.S.  Makes talks with countries like Iran much easier, because they know we're not shy about a dropping a bomb or two. 

There have been no terrorist attacks since we invaded. 

Dude,

We put him in power.

China is just actually worse! Would you like to invade them next?

There is a perfectly legitimate reason to have a billion dollars under your mattress considering the US's influence on global banking. I bet checking under Haliburton's mattress would yield similar results. There are other nations in the region with WMDs. BTW, you really might want to check and see where the WMD's he used on the Kurds came from, LOL!

The world already knew the message. Occupying Iraq destabilized the region and created more enemies.

No terrorist attack since the invasion is a silly reason. How many attacks did we have before the occupation? They are no more connected to those bombs than US taxpayers are to the Tomahawk missiles the Navy drops on Iraq. There is no causal relationship between Iraq and 911. Bin Laden is a wahabbi from Saudi Arabia. Most of the Hijackers were Saudis... if there's any country in need of an asswhoopin.... you get my point.

911 sucked, I get that. What no one has been able to satisfactorily explain is how destroying an uninvolved country is supposed to make us all feel better. I wouldn't even have had a problem with using bombs to keep Afghanistan in the stone age... forever. Literally leaving no stone unturned and sending no aid would send the message that harboring terrorists was too expensive on a cultural level.

Like I wrote earlier, it's understandable why someone would want to believe attacking Iraq was the right thing to do. There just doesn't seem to be a verifiable, logical reason to support the argument.

I'd say we're less safe for having invaded them. One thing people can't live with for too long without taking action is fear. Fear is why we're giving up constitutional rights and allowing the government free reign. They fear us... how far would they have to go in order to feel safe? Sadly, those countries need nuclear weapons more than ever for nothing more than to delay or prevent a US attack. Just because the US will not attack a nuclear superpower. Especially one that close to Israel. It would be insane for them to not do everything possible for their country's protection. That kind of leverage is the only thing that would make the US negotiate and prevent their 'neighbors' from indiscriminately attacking.

Hedgehog

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #64 on: October 03, 2007, 06:29:41 AM »
We removed an evil and dangerous man with unlimited resources who the world believed was trying to acquire WMDs.  The same man who plundered his country's resources, sponsored terrorism, and would probably do whatever he could to help anyone who wanted to attack the U.S.  Although we obviously never found WMDs, I suspect he moved whatever he had out of the country.  There is also no legitimate reason to have a billion dollars under your mattress (we found somewhere close to this amount in one of his palaces).   

We sent to a strong message to the rest of the world that you don't mess with the U.S.  Makes talks with countries like Iran much easier, because they know we're not shy about a dropping a bomb or two. 

There have been no terrorist attacks since we invaded. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

This isn't true, the propaganda in the news is simply not true.

And check out the amount of terrorist attacks prior to 2004 (when USA invaded Iraq) and after.

Or look at the late 90's. How much terrorism was it then, in comparison to today?

I'm not asking you to discard your sceptisism of Hussein, I also believe he was a bad man. All I'm saying is: Look at the numbers.

BTW, the link could be of interest for 240 or Bust as well, who's been argueing that an aggressive foreign policy is beneficial to USA.

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Decker

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2007, 06:56:04 AM »
Is the point of "stare decisis" to have courts make law or interpret existing law?  The legislature can change the law anytime they want.  It's the court's role to interpret whatever law the legislature passes. 

And Tu is absolutely right:  Congress endorsed the war already, multiple times.  You are a voice in the wilderness mang.  :)
Both.  Precedent governs the application/interpretation of the law in a current case.

You and Tu are both incorrect as to Congress's role in the legality of the war.  Congress's endorsement (i.e., funding of the war and grant of authority to use force) has absolutely nothing to do with the legality of Bush's misuse of the Congressional grant of authority to use force in Iraq.

Here's why.

Congress gave Bush the authority to use military force to force Iraq to comply with UN inspections as required under UN resolution 1441.

Iraq let inspectors into the country in 2002 and were complying with inspections.

George Bush ordered the US military to attack Iraq in 2003 for not complying with inspections.

But Iraq was complying--the WMD inspectors were on the ground in Iraq and finding no WMDs.

Does everyone see the problem here?

As commander and chief of the armed force, the decision to attack Iraq was Bush's and Bush's alone.  Bush misused the authority to use force to compel Iraq's compliance w/ WMD inspections.  Iraq complied.  Bush attacked anyways.

That is a crime...a war crime...a crime against humanity.

And it shows the cowardice at the heart of Bush:  he attacked a prone country.  We asked for inspections, we got them and he butchered them anyways.

Hedgehog

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2007, 06:58:43 AM »
And it shows the cowardice at the heart of Bush:  he attacked a prone country.  We asked for inspections, we got them and he butchered them anyways.

In your opinion, how evident do you think this fact is to the general public?
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drkaje

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2007, 07:03:02 AM »
Both.  Precedent governs the application/interpretation of the law in a current case.

You and Tu are both incorrect as to Congress's role in the legality of the war.  Congress's endorsement (i.e., funding of the war and grant of authority to use force) has absolutely nothing to do with the legality of Bush's misuse of the Congressional grant of authority to use force in Iraq.

Here's why.

Congress gave Bush the authority to use military force to force Iraq to comply with UN inspections as required under UN resolution 1441.

Iraq let inspectors into the country in 2002 and were complying with inspections.

George Bush ordered the US military to attack Iraq in 2003 for not complying with inspections.

But Iraq was complying--the WMD inspectors were on the ground in Iraq and finding no WMDs.

Does everyone see the problem here?

As commander and chief of the armed force, the decision to attack Iraq was Bush's and Bush's alone.  Bush misused the authority to use force to compel Iraq's compliance w/ WMD inspections.  Iraq complied.  Bush attacked anyways.

That is a crime...a war crime...a crime against humanity.

And it shows the cowardice at the heart of Bush:  he attacked a prone country.  We asked for inspections, we got them and he butchered them anyways.

Decker.

The president can't be a war criminal with the amount of military and economic power the US has. I'm not saying you're wrong, merely that the definition is more political than practical.

Decker

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2007, 07:11:08 AM »
Decker.

The president can't be a war criminal with the amount of military and economic power the US has. I'm not saying you're wrong, merely that the definition is more political than practical.
You are correct.  I can't deny that.

International law is relevant only to the extent that the US honors it.  And surprise surprise the US is ignoring it...just like with terrorist allegations against Reagan/Bush for mining Nicaraguan harbors back in the 1980s.

This is what I mean about fighting the good fight.  I, and people like me, will keep pointing out the fact that Bush is thug that used the military to commit murder.  I will do that for two main reasons:

1.  It's the truth
2.  It's an irritant to his supporters b/c the truth of the assertion that he broke the law to invade Iraq is fairly obvious--somewhere in their minds, they know I'm right.

It's an uphill battle but those are the most worthwhile.

Hedgehog

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #69 on: October 03, 2007, 07:13:47 AM »
Decker.

The president can't be a war criminal with the amount of military and economic power the US has. I'm not saying you're wrong, merely that the definition is more political than practical.

I think it's very important to stress that Bush has potentially broken international laws.

Why?

Number of reasons:

1. Understanding why support for USA's war on terror is going down.

2. Understanding that US actions actually can cause increased anti-Americanism. For every action, there will always be a reaction.


If USA works with the international community, like it did much of the 1990's, or like when Nixon and Kissinger tried to reach out in the early 1970's (relatively), decreased tension and support is the result.
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #70 on: October 03, 2007, 07:22:30 AM »
We removed an evil and dangerous man with unlimited resources who the world believed was trying to acquire WMDs.  The same man who plundered his country's resources, sponsored terrorism, and would probably do whatever he could to help anyone who wanted to attack the U.S.  Although we obviously never found WMDs, I suspect he moved whatever he had out of the country.  There is also no legitimate reason to have a billion dollars under your mattress (we found somewhere close to this amount in one of his palaces).   

We sent to a strong message to the rest of the world that you don't mess with the U.S.  Makes talks with countries like Iran much easier, because they know we're not shy about a dropping a bomb or two. 

There have been no terrorist attacks since we invaded. 
lol... removed one man and vastly increased the ranks among radical groups.  Great trade off ::)  We should feel so much safer, let me dig up my assbackward logic so I feel good about it too :D  Oh, and I really doubt with our history countries out there doubt we have the willingness to drop a few bombs, that's just a stupid thing to say, what we have obliterate a country at least every decade to maintain our "don't mess with this" status? ::)  I don't know where you get your no terrorist attacks since we invaded, terrorist attacks are way way up since we invaded...

headhuntersix

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #71 on: October 03, 2007, 07:25:40 AM »
Look at what we did in the 1990's first. I don't think guy is a good link because of the Soviets and the Cold War etc. They did as much as they could given the nature of international politics. Back to the 1990's...we did nothing. We got nothing accompished with regards Israel and Palistine, despite the best efforts of the Clinton administration. The Israelis were prepared to give away the whole deal in 1998 but Arrafat shit canned that. We pulled out of Somalia. Once Clinton came into power we completely changed the ROE in that country. We pulled out essential troops and support and once we pulled out completely, Bin laden looked at that as a sign that we were weak. We got involved in Bosnia, on the side of the Muslims, a fact lost on " the faithful". We're still there for some reason. We gutted the military. We really got very little accomplished as far as foreign affairs.
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Decker

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2007, 07:26:27 AM »
In your opinion, how evident do you think this fact is to the general public?
That's a great question.  Considering the "liberal media" won't even address the topic of the legality of the invasion, I would say that the general public has no idea.

But look at what happens when I discuss this with Bush supporters on this board, they cannot deny my charges of illegality.  Instead, they spout more propaganda:  "Hussein was a bad man, he supported terrorism" (not Al Qaeda) "everyone believed he had WMDs" (wrong again) "the world is better off w/out him."

When I start to hear that nonsense, I know I've won.

The story has to be told.  Whether it catches on with the public...that's a tough one.

headhuntersix

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2007, 07:31:47 AM »
Most Americans don't care about international law...the rest of the world is for vacations as far as most folks think. I don't care about it because it presuposes that we all operate on a level playing field and that America, by her actions, defies that playing field. There is no level playing field. If other countries can screw America they will....at any oppertunity. If there is money to be made, then international law is out. Why all of a sudden is France our new friend...oil....politica l power...reemergence as being important on the world stage. They could care less about Iraq or Iran unless the oil stops flowing, so its in their strategic best interest to get back on board with the US, international law be dammed.
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #74 on: October 03, 2007, 07:40:47 AM »
Most Americans don't care about international law...the rest of the world is for vacations as far as most folks think. I don't care about it because it presuposes that we all operate on a level playing field and that America, by her actions, defies that playing field. There is no level playing field. If other countries can screw America they will....at any oppertunity. If there is money to be made, then international law is out. Why all of a sudden is France our new friend...oil....politica l power...reemergence as being important on the world stage. They could care less about Iraq or Iran unless the oil stops flowing, so its in their strategic best interest to get back on board with the US, international law be dammed.
I would say more that Americans don't think international law should have any power over the affairs of Americans which is a little different looking at America's place in a global community of nations.  If we are to totally disregard international law, your "important on the world stage" is nothing less than an obligation to be Team America World Police.  Bushie's NWO... Fuck that...