Author Topic: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know  (Read 11916 times)

Stark

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Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« on: September 24, 2007, 01:35:43 PM »

for over a year neo cons have been trying to build a case against Iran. They have been feeding Americans lies and nothing but lies.

Remember these were the same people who told us Iraq was months away from nuclear weapon.

What did Ahmadinejad say?

“Ahmadinejad Didn’t Say “Israel Must Be Wiped Off The Map”


Global-Research, January 20, 2007
Information Clearing House

Across the world, a dangerous rumour has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran’s President has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, “Israel must be wiped off the map.” Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made, as this article will prove.

BACKGROUND:

On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled “The World Without Zionism.” Large posters surrounding him displayed this title prominently in English, obviously for the benefit of the international press. Below the poster’s title was a slick graphic depicting an hour glass containing planet Earth at its top. Two small round orbs representing the United States and Israel are shown falling through the hour glass’ narrow neck and crashing to the bottom.

Before we get to the infamous remark, it’s important to note that the “quote” in question was itself a quote they are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomaini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. Although he quoted Khomaini to affirm his own position on Zionism, the actual-words belong to Khomaini and not Ahmadinejad. Thus, Ahmadinejad has essentially been credited (or blamed) for a quote that is not only unoriginal, but represents a viewpoint already in place well before he ever took office.

THE ACTUAL-QUOTE:

So what did Ahmadinejad actually say? To quote his exact words in Farsi: “Emam ghoft in rezhim-e eshghalgar-e Qods bayad az safheh-ye rozgar mahv shavad.”

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word “Regime,” pronounced just like the English word with an extra “eh” sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase “rezhim-e eshghalgar-e Qods” (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question: what exactly did he want “wiped from the map”? The answer is: nothing. That’s because the word “map” was never used. The Persian word for map, “nagsheh,” is not contained anywhere in his original-Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase “wipe out” ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran’s President threatened to “wipe Israel off the map,” despite never having uttered the words “map,” “wipe out” or even “Israel.”

THE PROOF:

The full quote translated directly to English:

“The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time.”

Word by word translation:

Emam (Khomaini) ghoft (said) in (this) rezhim-e (regime) eshghalgar-e (occupying) Qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye rozgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Here is the full transcript of the speech in Farsi, archived on

www.president.ir/farsi/ahm

adinejad/speeches/1384/aba

n-84/840804sahyonizm.htm

THE SPEECH AND CONTEXT:

While the false “wiped off the map” extract has been repeated infinitely without verification, Ahmadinejad’s actual-speech itself has been almost entirely ignored. Given the importance placed on the “map” comment, it would be sensible to present his words in their full context to get a fuller understanding of his position. In fact, by looking at the entire speech, there is a clear, logical-trajectory leading up to his call for a “world without Zionism.” One may disagree with his reasoning, but critical appraisals are infeasible without first knowing what that reasoning is.

In his speech, Ahmadinejad declares that Zionism is the West’s apparatus of political-oppression against Muslims. He says the “Zionist regime” was imposed on the Islamic world as a strategic bridgehead to ensure domination of the region and its assets. Palestine, he insists, is the frontline of the Islamic world’s struggle with American hegemony, and its fate will have repercussions for the entire Middle East.

Ahmadinejad acknowledges that the removal-of America’s powerful grip on the region via the Zionists may seem unimaginable to some, but reminds the audience that, as Khomaini predicted, other seemingly invincible empires have disappeared and now only exist in history books. He then proceeds to list three such regimes that have collapsed, crumbled or vanished, all within the last 30 years:

(1) The Shah of Iran- the U.S. installed monarch
(2) The Soviet Union
(3) Iran’s former arch-enemy, Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein

In the first and third examples, Ahmadinejad prefaces their mention with Khomaini’s own words foretelling that individual-regime’s demise. He concludes by referring to Khomaini’s unfulfilled wish: “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise.” This is the passage that has been isolated, twisted and distorted so famously. By measure of comparison, Ahmadinejad would seem to be calling for regime change, not war.

THE ORIGIN:

One may wonder: where did this false interpretation originate? Who is responsible for the translation that has sparked such worldwide controversy? The answer is surprising.

The inflammatory “wiped off the map” quote was first disseminated not by Iran’s enemies, but by Iran itself. The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran’s official-propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference. International-media including the BBC, al-Jazirah, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source. Iran’s Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own. Though the IRNA wording was inaccurate and misleading, the media assumed it was true, and besides, it made great copy.

Amid heated wrangling over Iran’s nuclear program, and months of continuous, unfounded accusations against Iran in an attempt to rally support for pre-emptive strikes against the country, the imperialists had just been handed the perfect raison d’etre to invade. To the war hawks, it was a gift from the skies.

It should be noted that in other references to the conference, the IRNA’s translation changed. For instance, “map” was replaced with “earth.” In some articles it was “The Qods occupying regime should be eliminated from the surface of earth,” or the similar “The Qods occupying regime must be eliminated from the surface of earth.” The inconsistency of the IRNA’s translation should be evidence enough of the unreliability of the source, particularly when transcribing their news from Farsi into the English language.

THE REACTION:

The mistranslated “wiped off the map” quote attributed to Iran’s President has been spread worldwide, repeated thousands of times in international media, and prompted the denouncements of numerous world leaders. Virtually every major and minor media outlet has published or broadcast this false statement to the masses. Big news agencies such as The Associated Press and Reuters refer to the misquote, literally, on an almost daily basis.

Following news of Iran’s remark, condemnation was swift. British Prime Minister Tony Blair expressed “revulsion” and implied that it might be necessary to attack Iran. U.N. chief Kofi Annan cancelled his scheduled trip to Iran due to the controversy. Ariel Sharon demanded that Iran be expelled from the United Nations for calling for Israel’s destruction. Shimon Peres, more than once, threatened to wipe Iran off the map. More recently, Israel’s Benjamin Netanyahu, who has warned that Iran is “preparing another holocaust for the Jewish state” is calling for Ahmadinejad to be tried for war crimes for inciting genocide.

The artificial-quote has also been subject to additional-alterations. U.S. officials and media often take the liberty of dropping the “map” reference altogether, replacing it with the more acutely threatening phrase “wipe Israel off the face of the earth.” Newspaper and magazine articles dutifully report Ahmadinejad has “called for the destruction of Israel,” as do senior officials in the United States government.

President George W. Bush said the comments represented a “specific threat” to destroy Israel. In a March 2006 speech in Cleveland, Bush vowed he would resort to war to protect Israel from Iran, because…” the threat from Iran is, of course, their stated objective to destroy our strong ally Israel.” Former Presidential-advisor Richard Clarke told Australian TV that Iran “talks openly about destroying Israel,” and insists, “The President of Iran has said repeatedly that he wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.” In an October 2006 interview with Amy Goodman, former UN Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter referred to Ahmadinejad as “the idiot that comes out and says really stupid, vile things, such as, ‘It is the goal-of Iran to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.” The consensus is clear.

Confusing matters further, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad pontificates rather than give a direct answer when questioned about the statement, such as in Lally Weymouth’s Washington Post interview in September 2006:

“Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

We need to look at the scene in the Middle East 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

Our suggestion is very clear: Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted…. The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

You’ve been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago…

So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let’s allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people.”

The exchange is typical-of Ahmadinejad’s interviews with the American media. Predictably, both Mike Wallace of 60 Minutes and CNN’s Anderson Cooper asked if he wants to “wipe Israel off the map.” As usual, the question is thrown back in the reporter’s face with his standard “Don’t the Palestinians have rights? etc.” retort (which is never directly answered either). Yet he never confirms the “map” comment to be true. This did not prevent Anderson Cooper from referring to earlier portions of his interview after a commercial-break and lying, “as he said earlier, he wants Israel wiped off the map.”

Even if every media outlet in the world were to retract the mistranslated quote tomorrow, the major damage has already been done, providing the groundwork for the next phase of disinformation: complete character demonization. Ahmadinejad, we are told, is the next Hitler, a grave threat to world peace who wants to bring about a new Holocaust. According to some detractors, he not only wants to destroy Israel, but after that, he will nuke America, and then Europe! An October 2006 memo titled Words of Hate: Iran’s Escalating Threats released by the powerful Israeli lobby group AIPAC opens with the warning, “Ahmadinejad and other top Iranian leaders are issuing increasingly belligerent statements threatening to destroy the United States, Europe and Israel.” These claims not only fabricate an unsubstantiated threat, but assume far more power than he actually possesses. Alarmists would be better off monitoring the statements of the ultra-conservative Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, who holds the most power in Iran.

As Iran’s U.N. Press Officer, M.A. Mohammadi, complained to The Washington Post in a June 2006 letter:

“It is not amazing at all, the pick-and-choose approach of highlighting the misinterpreted remarks of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in October and ignoring this month’s remarks by Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, that “We have no problem with the world. We are not a threat whatsoever to the world and the world knows it. We will never start a war. We have no intention of going to war with any state.”

The Israeli government has milked every drop of the spurious quote to its supposed advantage. In her September 2006 address to the United Nations General-Assembly, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni accused Iran of working to nuke Israel and bully the world: “They speak proudly and openly of their desire to ‘wipe Israel off the map.’ And now, by their actions, they pursue the weapons to achieve this objective to imperil the region and threaten the world.”

Addressing the threat in December, a fervent Prime Minister Ehud Olmert inadvertently disclosed that his country already possesses nuclear weapons: “We have never threatened any nation with annihilation. Iran, openly, explicitly and publicly threatens to wipe Israel off the map. Can you say that this is the same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons, as America, France, Israel, and Russia?”

MEDIA IRRESPONSIBILITY:

On December 13, 2006, more than a year after The World Without Zionism conference, two leading Israeli newspapers, The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz, published reports of a renewed threat from Ahmadinejad. The Jerusalem Post’s headline was Ahmadinejad: Israel will be ‘wiped out,’ while Haaretz posted the title Ahmadinejad at Holocaust conference: Israel will ’soon be wiped out.’

Where did they get their information? It turns out that both papers, like most American and western media, rely heavily on write ups by news wire services such as the Associated Press and Reuters as a source for their articles. Sure enough, their sources are in fact December 12th articles by Reuter’s Paul Hughes [Iran president says Israel’s days are numbered], and the AP’s Ali Akbar Dareini [Iran President: Israel Will be wiped out].

The first five paragraphs of the Haaretz article, credited to “Haaretz Service and Agencies,” are plagiarized almost 100% from the first five paragraphs of the Reuters piece. The only difference is that Haaretz changed “the Jewish state” to “Israel” in the second paragraph, otherwise they are identical.

The Jerusalem Post article by Herb Keinon pilfers from both the Reuters and AP stories. Like Haaretz, it uses the following Ahmadinejad quote without attribution: [”Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out,” he added]. Another passage apparently relies on an IRNA report:

“The Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was, and humanity will achieve freedom,” Ahmadinejad said at Tuesday’s meeting with the conference participants in his offices, according to Iran’s official-news agency, IRNA.

He said elections should be held among “Jews, Christians and Muslims so the population of Palestine can select their government and destiny for themselves in a democratic manner.”

Once again, the first sentence above was wholly plagiarized from the AP article. The second sentence was also the same, except “He called for elections” became “He said elections should be held…”

It gets more interesting:

The quote used in the original-AP article and copied in The Jerusalem Post article supposedly derives from the IRNA. If true, this can easily be checked. Care to find out? Go to: www.irna.ir/en/news/view/m

enu-234/0612134902101231.h

tm

There you will discover the actual-IRNA quote was:

“As the Soviet Union disappeared, the Zionist regime will also vanish and humanity will be liberated.”

Compare this to the alleged IRNA quote reported by the Associated Press:

“The Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was, and humanity will achieve freedom.”

In the IRNA’s actual-report, the Zionist regime will vanish just as the Soviet Union disappeared. Vanish. Disappear. In the dishonest AP version, the Zionist regime will be “wiped out.” And how will it be wiped out? “The same way the Soviet Union was.” Rather than imply a military threat or escalation in rhetoric, this reference to Russia actually validates the intended meaning of Ahmadinejad’s previous misinterpreted anti-Zionist statements.

What has just been demonstrated is irrefutable proof of media manipulation and propaganda in action. The AP deliberately alters an IRNA quote to sound more threatening. The Israeli media not only repeats the fake quote but also steals the original-authors’ words. The unsuspecting public reads this, forms an opinion and supports unnecessary wars of aggression, presented as self defense, based on the misinformation.

This scenario mirrors the kind of false claims that led to the illegal U.S. invasion of Iraq, a war now widely viewed as a catastrophic mistake. And yet the Bush administration and the compliant corporate media continue to marinate in propaganda and speculation about attacking Iraq’s much larger and more formidable neighbour, Iran. Most of this rests on the unproven assumption that Iran is building nuclear weapons, and the lie that Iran has vowed to physically destroy Israel. Given its scope and potentially disastrous outcome, all this amounts to what is arguably the rumour of the century.

drkaje

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2007, 02:29:55 PM »
Stark,

Facts will only confuse them.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2007, 01:16:26 AM »
exactly, I made a similar post on this point at the beginning of 2007.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=120360.0

pretty much crickets there too :D

Nordic Superman

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2007, 02:26:31 AM »
In the last few paragraphs you give more credibility to a state run media outlet (IRNA) than you do the AP.

I agree on most parts but some offering credibility to that source is laughable.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

drkaje

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2007, 04:15:34 AM »
exactly, I made a similar post on this point at the beginning of 2007.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=120360.0

pretty much crickets there too :D

You guys thinking the problem is a lack education/facts is endearing.

Slapper

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2007, 07:10:03 PM »
Good post! It shows how little fact-checking is done nowadays...

I was apalled at the treatment the Iranian president received at Columbia University. I just can't believe the pot shots he was dealt with from all these "freedom-loving" deans and university presidents, who insulted him in a very arrogant manner.

I am pissed at these motherfuckers because, had we switched the Iranian president with Bush, they wouldn't daaaaare say shit to GB.

Pick on the weak. I hate those individuals! I hate Columbia!

Camel Jockey

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2007, 09:08:58 PM »
Preaching to people who have their minds made up already, which implies your post as pointless.

Some people will not change their views and have them set in stone.

GroinkTropin

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 09:35:56 PM »
Who fucking cares? Iran STONES WOMEN TO DEATH OVER NOTHING, HANGS PEOPLE FOR BEING GAY FUCK THOSE WORTHLESS FUCKS. Name ONE thing the middle east gives other than pain suffering and fucking oil just one. One medical advancement. Just one contribution to the human race I will leave you alone otherwise fuck them.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2007, 01:08:01 AM »
Who fucking cares? Iran STONES WOMEN TO DEATH OVER NOTHING, HANGS PEOPLE FOR BEING GAY FUCK THOSE WORTHLESS FUCKS. Name ONE thing the middle east gives other than pain suffering and fucking oil just one. One medical advancement. Just one contribution to the human race I will leave you alone otherwise fuck them.
Hey, the only thing we are fucking after bubba are the facts ::)  Nobody here tried to pass the Iranian gov off as benevolent...  Who fucking cares?  Everyone who gives a shit about knowing exactly what is fact or fiction fed to us by neocon douchebags hungry for more war.  What Iran does to women may be bad but it's not worth going to war over.  Contrary to popular neocon believe, this nation was not created to police the world.

24KT

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2007, 01:30:50 AM »
Who fucking cares? Iran STONES WOMEN TO DEATH OVER NOTHING, HANGS PEOPLE FOR BEING GAY FUCK THOSE WORTHLESS FUCKS. Name ONE thing the middle east gives other than pain suffering and fucking oil just one. One medical advancement. Just one contribution to the human race I will leave you alone otherwise fuck them.

The European Renaissance to start.

Mathematics, Astronomy, Science, Medicine, Literature, Agriculture, Arabic Numerals, and Alcohol etc., etc., etc.
The list is endless, so I trust those 9 areas will suffice.

Now Fvck off!  Please and Thank You.
w

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 02:09:43 AM »
The European Renaissance to start.

Mathematics, Astronomy, Science, Medicine, Literature, Agriculture, Arabic Numerals, and Alcohol etc., etc., etc.
The list is endless, so I trust those 9 areas will suffice.

Now Fvck off!  Please and Thank You.
Nice ;)  Kind of ironic he would care about their human rights violations and in the same post say fuck em.

headhuntersix

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2007, 02:50:12 PM »
Hey Jag...we've gone down this road about how wonderful the Rags are before..guess what alll revisionist Bullshit. Imaragheadijad should go die in a fire..who cares at this point if he said what he said....he hates us, he sits on a shit ton of oil..and can't play nicely with the rest nof us....he needs to go.
L

GroinkTropin

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2007, 03:18:13 PM »
The European Renaissance to start.

Mathematics, Astronomy, Science, Medicine, Literature, Agriculture, Arabic Numerals, and Alcohol etc., etc., etc.
The list is endless, so I trust those 9 areas will suffice.

Now Fvck off!  Please and Thank You.

I'm going to guess you have little to no proof of any of this do you? Since I have some time to kill I will search around and see what I find. Yes I do find it ironic that I mention human rights violations and then say fuck them, it's all too easy to get carried away. I hate these people, and while we are not the world police if there is an injustice in the world, who will stand up for the little guy? Noone else is stepping up to the plate, I am more than happy to.

headhuntersix

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 03:26:25 PM »
There's a history website that goes point by point on how many of the crap attributed to arabs is either BS, overblown or distorted by an over aplogetic West. I'm digging as well.
L

headhuntersix

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 03:34:53 PM »
The reality is that the so-called “Arab” contribution to mathematics was substantially built on prior knowledge of the Hindus and the Greeks and while the Greek influence and origins are frequently acknowledged, the Hindu contribution is very rarely mentioned.

To quote from Carl B. Boyer in his "History of Mathematics", “...Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khwarizmi, ..., who died sometime before 850, wrote more than a half dozen astronomical and mathematical works, of which the earliest were probably based on the Sindhind derived from India. Besides ... [he] wrote two books on arithmetic and algebra which played very important roles in the history of mathematics. ... In this work, based presumably on an Arabic translation of Brahmagupta, al-Khwarizmi gave so full an account of the Hindu numerals that he probably is responsible for the widespread but false impression that our system of numeration is Arabic in origin. ... [pages 227-228]...”.

The hatred of Western Civilization, and the corresponding urge to glorify anything outside it, especially if it can be depicted as a victim of the West, is a well-known phenomenon of the contemporary liberal mind. One of the forms it has taken in recent years is the attempt to artificially inflate the historic achievements of other civilizations beyond what the facts support. The noble savage myth is a commonplace; what is more complex is the myth that has been bandied about concerning the supposed "golden age" of Islamic civilization during what we know as the Middle Ages.

The myth of an Islamic Golden Age is needed by Islam’s apologists to save it from being damned by its present squalid condition; to prove, as it were, that there is more to Islam than the terrorism of Bin Laden and the decadence of the oil sheiks. It is, frankly, a confession that if the world judges it by what it is today, it comes up rather short, being a religion that has yet to produce a democratic or prosperous society, or social and cultural forms admired by neutral foreign observers the way anyone can admire American freedom, Japanese order, Israeli courage, or Italian style.

Some liberal academics openly admit that they twist the Moslem past to serve their present-day intellectual agendas. For example, some who propound the myth of an Islamic golden age of tolerance admit that their goal is,

I could go on forever.....
L

headhuntersix

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 03:36:55 PM »
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={5BB95390-5AA5-4F74-ACD5-BCCE6E77931C}

This "golden" period in question largely coincides with the second dynasty of the Caliphate or Islamic Empire, that of the Abbasids, named after Muhammad’s uncle Abbas, who succeeded the Umayyads and ascended to the Caliphate in 750 AD. They moved the capital city to Baghdad, absorbed much of the Syrian and Persian culture as well as Persian methods of government, and ushered in the "golden age."

This age was marked by, among other things, intellectual achievement. A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a convincing "Islamic" golden age is that whatever flourished, did so not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for the survival of Chopin in Warsaw in 1970! Islam per se never encouraged science, in the sense of disinterested enquiry, because the only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.

As Bernard Lewis explains in his book What Went Wrong? the Moslem Empire inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle east, of Greece and of Persia, it added to them new and important innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China and decimal positional numbering from India." The decimal numbers were thus transmitted to the West, where they are still mistakenly known as "Arabic" numbers, honoring not their inventors but their transmitters.

Furthermore, the intellectual achievements of Islam’s "golden age" were of limited value. There was a lot of speculation and very little application, be it in technology or politics. At the present day, for almost a thousand years even speculation has stopped, and the bounds of what is considered orthodox Islam have frozen, except when they have even contracted, as in the case of Wahabism. Those who try to push the fundamentals of Moslem thought any further into the light of modernity frequently pay for it with their lives. The fundamentalists who ruled Afghanistan until recently and still rule in Iran hold up their supposed golden age as a model for their people and as a justification for their tyranny. Westerners should know better.

L

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 10:07:57 PM »
Hey Jag...we've gone down this road about how wonderful the Rags are before..guess what alll revisionist Bullshit. Imaragheadijad should go die in a fire..who cares at this point if he said what he said....he hates us, he sits on a shit ton of oil..and can't play nicely with the rest nof us....he needs to go.
It's not about him, he and several other world leaders can all go fuck themselves.  They're all evil asses.  It's much more about keeping neocons like Bill Kristol honest.  If Iran is doing evil ass shit, there shouldn't be much need to make crap up.  If we're going to war, let us do it knowing the whole truth and nothing but where allegations are made.

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2007, 05:17:08 AM »
..and can't play nicely with the rest nof us....

pot..kettle..black!  :D
carpe` vaginum!

ToxicAvenger

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2007, 05:18:15 AM »
carpe` vaginum!

drkaje

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2007, 09:13:10 AM »
Who fucking cares? Iran STONES WOMEN TO DEATH OVER NOTHING, HANGS PEOPLE FOR BEING GAY FUCK THOSE WORTHLESS FUCKS. Name ONE thing the middle east gives other than pain suffering and fucking oil just one. One medical advancement. Just one contribution to the human race I will leave you alone otherwise fuck them.

You realize America has killed over 700K Iraqis in the past three years. It's hypocritical to talk crap about their human rights record when we're killing them left and right. Besides, those women and homos weren't white or Jewish so no one really cares anyways. :)

Judi, you forgot to mention the Holy Qur'an.

Dos Equis

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2007, 12:25:13 PM »
You realize America has killed over 700K Iraqis in the past three years.

Noooo.  Not this again.   :)    Where are you getting this number?  From what I recall, we established on here many months ago that the half million number that some advocacy group came up with was completely unreliable.  It was based on interviews with a small number of people and then estimates were made based on those interviews.  At least that's what I remember. 

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2007, 12:52:06 PM »
Noooo.  Not this again.   :)    Where are you getting this number?  From what I recall, we established on here many months ago that the half million number that some advocacy group came up with was completely unreliable.  It was based on interviews with a small number of people and then estimates were made based on those interviews.  At least that's what I remember. 

The number released last year was 655K. That being said, it doesn't matter anyways.

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2007, 01:03:48 PM »
The number released last year was 655K. That being said, it doesn't matter anyways.

"The number released" sounds pretty official.  It wasn't. 

Some advocacy group overstating collateral damage by hundreds of thousands isn't a big deal, since those people were never dead anyway.  Is 700,00 your estimate?

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2007, 04:04:06 PM »
"The number released" sounds pretty official.  It wasn't. 

Some advocacy group overstating collateral damage by hundreds of thousands isn't a big deal, since those people were never dead anyway.  Is 700,00 your estimate?

I guessed they would have atleast killed another 45K within a year. Can't really see why the death number would matter that much, no one cares.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/

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Re: Truth: What neo cons dont want America to know
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2007, 04:49:49 PM »
You realize America has killed over 700K Iraqis in the past three years. It's hypocritical to talk crap about their human rights record when we're killing them left and right. Besides, those women and homos weren't white or Jewish so no one really cares anyways. :)

Judi, you forgot to mention the Holy Qur'an.

The numbers may be 700k, but do you think that is the actual number killed directly by Americans whether it be by gunfire, bombing/strafing runs, or other incident attributed to battle? I would think that much of these deaths were caused by indirect American involvement such as secetarian violence, power struggles, disease/famine, and all around civil war.  Also, how much of this number could actually be foreign fighters attracted to the region? 

Then you speak about that people only care about white or jewish deaths.  That isn't true.  White farmers in South Africa have been killed by the hundreds, but that does not make the news.  Anti-semitism(REAL anti-semitism, not the criticize Isreal type) is rampant throughout Europe due to massive Muslim immigration....in fact, an average of 10 Jews a day are assaulted in Paris.  That is never mentioned, unless one went to look specifically for it.  90% of interracial crime in the US is black on white, but that is never mentioned(I guess because....its expected? lol). 

Caring about human deaths?  Sure the media and general populace care about certain human deaths in regards to race, culture, religion, and region.....when it most conveniantly suits them.