NY Times Article: Fossils Reveal Clues on Human Ancestor

[columbusdude82]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/science/20fossil.html?_r=1&ref=science&oref=slogin

[nzhardgain]

you have lost

Came from nothing indeed.Man ,even the basic building block of life is far too complex to even consider that it randomly happened.Yet you take it as fact far more complex things just randomly evolved from this.

[columbusdude82]

What came from nothing? Define "nothing."

[Deicide]

you have lost

Came from nothing indeed.Man ,even the basic building block of life is far too complex to even consider that it randomly happened.Yet you take it as fact far more complex things just randomly evolved from this.

Well if your god designed us he was the biggest fuck up ever; what engineer would design our plumbing that way, arsehole right next to our pecker, pissing AND cumming out of our pecker, the need to piss and take dumps...terrible engineer; that is why I advocate unintelligent design.

[NeoSeminole]

Man ,even the basic building block of life is far too complex to even consider that it randomly happened.Yet you take it as fact far more complex things just randomly evolved from this.

fill a box with 10 ping pong balls and 10 billiard balls. Then, shake it for a while. What do you see? The heavy billiard balls settle on bottom while the lighter ping pong balls settle on top. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Much in the same way, atoms arrange themselves to form bonds according to the principles of chemistry and physics. These simple bond interactions are the basis for more complex molecules. While all of this occurs at the microscopic level, we perceive the resulting 'organization' at the macroscopic level. Salt, for example, is nothing more than a bunch of sodium (Na) atoms bonded with chlorine (Cl) atoms. Now let's take this a step further, say... a billion years in the making. The blueprint for life - DNA - originated from molecules that arranged themselves to form copies of itself. The replication of these molecules required resources which soon became limited, resulting in natural selection. Thus began the evolutionary radiation that resulted in all the life forms you see around you today.

[nzhardgain]

fill a box with 10 ping pong balls and 10 billiard balls. Then, shake it for a while. What do you see? The heavy billiard balls settle on bottom while the lighter ping pong balls settle on top. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Much in the same way, atoms arrange themselves to form bonds according to the principles of chemistry and physics. These simple bond interactions are the basis for more complex molecules. While all of this occurs at the microscopic level, we perceive the resulting 'organization' at the macroscopic level. Salt, for example, is nothing more than a bunch of sodium (Na) atoms bonded with chlorine (Cl) atoms. Now let's take this a step further, say... a billion years in the making. The blueprint for life - DNA - originated from molecules that arranged themselves to form copies of itself. The replication of these molecules required resources which soon became limited, resulting in natural selection. Thus began the evolutionary radiation that resulted in all the life forms you see around you today.

Break it down even further.Who made the box and the balls?.Who set them in motion?Something doesnt come from nothing.Mutation is a destructive rather than a constructive process yet u guys base your theory on it.
Its really that hard to recognise a superior being?

[OzmO]

Break it down even further.Who made the box and the balls?.Who set them in motion?Something doesnt come from nothing.Mutation is a destructive rather than a constructive process yet u guys base your theory on it.
Its really that hard to recognise a superior being?

and who or what created the reality that allows for those balls to do what they do?  Who or what made the billiard balls act the way they act?

From nothing a whole universe with physical laws that became a canvass for what our consciousness experiences

[Deicide]

I see where this is going; hey I too am an advocate of unintelligent design  . Watch an astrophysicist talk about it, or as he calls it, Stupid Design:

[NeoSeminole]

Break it down even further.Who made the box and the balls?.Who set them in motion?Something doesnt come from nothing.

who made whatever created the box? Who set whatever made it into motion? I'm sorry but your line of reasoning is stupid. Perhaps nobody will ever know the answer to what created our universe. However, throwing our hands up in the air and saying "God did it" will never get us closer to the truth.

Mutation is a destructive rather than a constructive process yet u guys base your theory on it.
Its really that hard to recognise a superior being?

I question where you got your information from. It certainly didn't come from a biology course taught at a university. Mutations can be beneficial, harmful, or neutral.

[Deicide]

who made whatever created the box? Who set whatever made it into motion? I'm sorry but your line of reasoning is stupid. Perhaps nobody will ever know the answer to what created our universe. However, throwing our hands up in the air and saying "God did it" will never get us closer to the truth.

I question where you got your information from. It certainly didn't come from a biology course taught at a university. Mutations can be beneficial, harmful, or neutral.

Yup, the god of the gaps is the final and last incarnation of the invisible 'creator'. As each of the gaps gets filled he runs for cover into the next one. But they don't get it.

[nzhardgain]

who made whatever created the box? Who set whatever made it into motion? I'm sorry but your line of reasoning is stupid. Perhaps nobody will ever know the answer to what created our universe. However, throwing our hands up in the air and saying "God did it" will never get us closer to the truth.

I question where you got your information from. It certainly didn't come from a biology course taught at a university. Mutations can be beneficial, harmful, or neutral.

You dont like the answer.My line of reasoning is simple to understand.My background is of no importance.

Examples of mutations in the fossil line causing evolving and intelligence improvement from one species or kind to another please..

[loco]

I question where you got your information from. It certainly didn't come from a biology course taught at a university. Mutations can be beneficial, harmful, or neutral.

"The underlying genetic mechanism of evolution is random mutation, and specifically mutation that is beneficial to life. Biology textbooks in theory present positive and negative mutations to students as though these were commonplace and roughly equal in number. However, these books fail to inform students that unequivocally positive mutations are unknown to genetics, since they have never been observed (or are so rare as to be irrelevant).

The biology textbooks in other chapters teach that most mutations are pathologic, or disease-causing, but they don't apply that information to evolution. The worst diseases doctors treat today are caused by genetic mutations. Nearly 4,000 diseases are caused by mutations in DNA.4 "The human genome contains a complete set of instructions for the production of a human being…. Genome research has already exposed errors |mutations| in these instructions that lead to heart disease, cancer, and neurological degeneration."5 These diseases are crippling, often fatal, and many of the affected pre-born infants are aborted spontaneously, i.e., they are so badly damaged they can't even survive gestation. However, the biology textbooks, when discussing mutation in evolution, only discuss the very rare "positive" mutation, like sickle cell anemia. The fact of some 4,000 devastating genetic diseases is suppressed from publication."  - Barney Maddox, M.D.

1 Stolz, M. 2006. Chairman's Corner. THR Physician Connection, 9(4):1.
2 Miller, K. and Levine, J. 1998. Biology: The Living Science. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall, 271.
3 Campbell, N. et al. 1997. Biology: Concepts & Connections. Menlo Park, CA: Benjamin Cummins, 426.
4 Nora, J. et al. 1994. Medical Genetics: Principles and Practice. Philadelphia: Lea and Feliger, 3.
5 The Human Genome Project. Announcement from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School, May 6, 1993.

[Straw Man]

I see where this is going; hey I too am an advocate of unintelligent design  . Watch an astrophysicist talk about it, or as he calls it, Stupid Design:

this is a great link

[NeoSeminole]

You dont like the answer.My line of reasoning is simple to understand.My background is of no importance.

your line of reasoning is simple to understand b/c it's stupid. All you did was arbitrarily choose a starting point and call it "God." Nowhere did you provide any evidence to support your belief.

Examples of mutations in the fossil line causing evolving and intelligence improvement from one species or kind to another please..

[NeoSeminole]

loco, it's funny how you go to such great lengths when all it takes is a simple glance to realize your posts are full of bullshit.

[OzmO]

I see where this is going; hey I too am an advocate of unintelligent design  . Watch an astrophysicist talk about it, or as he calls it, Stupid Design:

I watched about 75% of it.    This guy might consider doing stand up.   

Very good points.   

[nzhardgain]

your line of reasoning is simple to understand b/c it's stupid. All you did was arbitrarily choose a starting point and call it "God." Nowhere did you provide any evidence to support your belief.

Ive supplied my evidence.Starts in the book of genesis.Evidence surrounds you .Science tells you your belief is actually impossible.
The thought of a higher deity actually is too much for your mind to handle at this time.
Your diagrams and pictures of genetic dead ends as our origin is hard to understand.Would you mind breaking it down for me and explain whats going on?

PS. Who made the balls and the box and who set them in motion neo?

[Deicide]

Ive supplied my evidence.Starts in the book of genesis.Evidence surrounds you .Science tells you your belief is actually impossible.
The thought of a higher deity actually is too much for your mind to handle at this time.
Your diagrams and pictures of genetic dead ends as our origin is hard to understand.Would you mind breaking it down for me and explain whats going on?

PS. Who made the balls and the box and who set them in motion neo?

A monotheised, local Semitic deity, called Yaweh, conveniently called 'god' in the English language.

Or was it Odin or Zeus? or Dagda? or Queztelcoatl?

[loco]

loco, it's funny how you go to such great lengths when all it takes is a simple glance to realize your posts are full of bullshit.

So glad I can amuse you, NeoSeminole!   

To what "great lengths" are your referring to?  It's so easy.  Just google positive mutations or beneficial mutations.  It's a joke.

So, why don't you explain to all of us what you mean "it takes is a simple glance to realize your posts are full of bullshit"?  Why don't you tell us what it is you saw at first glance?  What is it about Dr. Maddox's quote that isn't true?  Come on, tell us.

Here is another one, this one from one of your buddies

"It is entirely in line with the accidental nature of mutations that extensive tests have agreed in showing the vast majority of them detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing, just as changes accidentally introduced into any artificial mechanism are predominantly harmful to its useful operation. According to the conception of evolution based on the studies of modern genetics, the whole organism has its basis in its genes. Of these there are thousands of different kinds, interacting with great nicety in the production and maintenance of the complicated organization of the given type of organism. Accordingly, by the mutation of one of these genes or another, in one way or another, any component structure or function, and in many cases combinations of these components, may become diversely altered. Yet in all except very rare cases the change will be disadvantageous, involving an impairment of function."

-- H.J. Muller, "How Radiation Changes the Genetic Constitution",
Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists,
Volume 11, number 9, Nov 1955, pp 329-338 and 352 (extract from page 331)

[Deicide]

So glad I can amuse you, NeoSeminole!   

To what "great lengths" are your referring to?  It's so easy.  Just google positive mutations or beneficial mutations.  It's a joke.

So, why don't you explain to all of us what you mean "it takes is a simple glance to realize your posts are full of bullshit"?  Why don't you tell us what it is you saw at first glance?  What is it about Dr. Maddox's quote that isn't true?  Come on, tell us.

Here is another one, this one from one of your buddies

"It is entirely in line with the accidental nature of mutations that extensive tests have agreed in showing the vast majority of them detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing, just as changes accidentally introduced into any artificial mechanism are predominantly harmful to its useful operation. According to the conception of evolution based on the studies of modern genetics, the whole organism has its basis in its genes. Of these there are thousands of different kinds, interacting with great nicety in the production and maintenance of the complicated organization of the given type of organism. Accordingly, by the mutation of one of these genes or another, in one way or another, any component structure or function, and in many cases combinations of these components, may become diversely altered. Yet in all except very rare cases the change will be disadvantageous, involving an impairment of function."

-- H.J. Muller, "How Radiation Changes the Genetic Constitution",
Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists,
Volume 11, number 9, Nov 1955, pp 329-338 and 352 (extract from page 331)

What's your point?

[columbusdude82]

I'll tell you his point. It's quite simple, and it's very often the same.

"I don't understand scientific concept X. Therefore, science makes no sense, and God exists. AHHAAAAAAAA!!!!!"

[loco]

What's your point?

Nothing, just supporting what nzhardgain said, which NeoSeminole denied.  I'm sure you and columbusdude82 deny it too.   Positive or beneficial mutations are so rare that they are negligible in support of evolution.  Harmful and destructive mutations, on the other hand, abound.

Mutation is a destructive rather than a constructive process yet u guys base your theory on it.
Its really that hard to recognise a superior being?

I question where you got your information from. It certainly didn't come from a biology course taught at a university. Mutations can be beneficial, harmful, or neutral.

[columbusdude82]

Mutations are rare??? Are you SURE, loco? Are you absolutely SURE?? You mean, like, one in a million years??

Damn, now all of modern biology has collapsed under the weight of loco's criticism........

[Straw Man]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6896753.stm

Butterfly shows evolution at work

Scientists say they have seen one of the fastest evolutionary changes ever observed in a species of butterfly.

The tropical blue moon butterfly has developed a way of fighting back against parasitic bacteria.
Six years ago, males accounted for just 1% of the blue moon population on two islands in the South Pacific. But by last year, the butterflies had evolved a gene to keep the bacteria in check and male numbers were up to about 40% of the population. Scientists believe the comeback is due to "suppressor" genes that control the Wolbachia bacteria that is passed down from the mother and kills the male embryos before they hatch. "To my knowledge, this is the fastest evolutionary change that has ever been observed," said Sylvain Charlat, of University College London, UK, whose study appears in the journal Science.

[Deicide]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6896753.stm

Butterfly shows evolution at work

Scientists say they have seen one of the fastest evolutionary changes ever observed in a species of butterfly.

The tropical blue moon butterfly has developed a way of fighting back against parasitic bacteria.
Six years ago, males accounted for just 1% of the blue moon population on two islands in the South Pacific. But by last year, the butterflies had evolved a gene to keep the bacteria in check and male numbers were up to about 40% of the population. Scientists believe the comeback is due to "suppressor" genes that control the Wolbachia bacteria that is passed down from the mother and kills the male embryos before they hatch. "To my knowledge, this is the fastest evolutionary change that has ever been observed," said Sylvain Charlat, of University College London, UK, whose study appears in the journal Science.

Those creationist fuckheads will just say god did it or call it micro-evolution...