Author Topic: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani  (Read 1364 times)

Dos Equis

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Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« on: October 04, 2007, 09:09:19 AM »
Is he even a practicing Catholic?

Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
         
CHERYL WITTENAUER | October 3, 2007 11:03 PM EST | 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ST. LOUIS — Roman Catholic Archbishop Raymond Burke, who made headlines last presidential season by saying he'd refuse Holy Communion to John Kerry, has his eye on Rudy Giuliani this year. Giuliani's response: "Archbishops have a right to their opinion."

Burke, the archbishop of St. Louis, was asked if he would deny Communion to Giuliani or any other presidential candidate who supports abortion rights.

"If any politician approached me and he'd been admonished not to present himself, I'd not give it," Burke told The Associated Press Wednesday. "To me, you have to be certain a person realizes he is persisting in a serious public sin."

Asked if the same would apply to politicians who support the death penalty or pre-emptive war, he said, "It's a little more complicated in that case."

Asked about Burke's comments Wednesday while campaigning in New Hampshire, Giuliani said:

"Archbishops have a right to their opinion, you know. There's freedom of religion in this country. There's no established religion, and archbishops have a right to their opinion. Everybody has a right to their opinion."

Burke says that anyone administering Communion _ ordained priest or lay minister _ is morally obligated to deny it to Catholic politicians who support an abortion-rights position contrary to church teaching.

Burke published an article in April in a church law journal that explored whether it is ever appropriate to deny Communion. Some U.S. bishops interpret church teaching to say that an individual examination of conscience, not a minister, should dictate whether a person is worthy to receive the sacrament.

Burke said denial of Communion is not a judgment. "What the state of his soul is is between God and him," he said.

The nation's bishops are expected to discuss the question again in meetings next month. Burke said he has made no policy proposal, simply laid out his thoughts in the article.

Burke will not be attending the bishops' meeting because of a prior commitment in Rome.

His stance on Giuliani was made public earlier Wednesday in an interview with The St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

A number of other Catholic presidential candidates also have abortion-rights stances in apparent conflict with church teaching. Giuliani is the only Catholic among the top-tier candidates.

Giuliani, a Republican, sometimes evokes his Catholic upbringing as he campaigns for president, yet he declines to say whether he is a practicing Catholic. He has been a longtime supporter of abortion rights.

While it is unlikely Giuliani or any other presidential candidate will present himself to Burke for Communion in the next few months, the archbishop's comments revive an issue that could be a factor for churchgoing voters.

In 2004, Burke said he would deny Communion to Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee who supports abortion rights. Several other bishops have said politicians should refrain from the sacrament if they oppose the church on such an important issue.

As for Giuliani, when a voter in Iowa asked him in August if he was a "traditional, practicing Roman Catholic," he said: "My religious affiliation, my religious practices and the degree to which I am a good or not-so-good Catholic, I prefer to leave to the priests."

Last week, Giuliani compared the scrutiny of his personal life marked by three marriages to the biblical story in which Jesus said only someone who was free of all sin should try to stone an adulterous woman.

"I'm guided very, very often about, 'Don't judge others, lest you be judged,'" Giuliani told the Christian Broadcasting Network.

"I have very, very strong views on religion that come about from having wanted to be a priest when I was younger, having studied theology for four years in college," he said.

"So it's a very, very important part of my life," he said. "But I think in a democracy and in a government like ours, my religion is my way of looking at God, and other people have other ways of doing it, and some people don't believe in God. I think that's unfortunate. I think their life would be a lot fuller if they did, but they have that right."

Republicans have been most successful with religious voters _ President Bush, a Methodist, won the Catholic vote over Kerry, a Catholic, in 2004 _ but Democratic candidates are fighting back and have spoken frequently about their religious beliefs this year.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20071003/giuliani-communion/

Tre

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2007, 01:06:48 PM »

It's a wafer and some grape juice. 

BFD?

Straw Man

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2007, 03:54:09 PM »
I'm pretty sure if Rudy get's the craving to eat the flesh of Jesus and drink the blood of Jesus he'll find a way. 


drkaje

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 03:59:25 PM »
It's pretty simple. Rudy G. is divorced.

Hedgehog

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2007, 04:33:11 PM »
That bishop doesn't seem to know his religion.

The Christian God is a forgiving one.

Everyone who accepts the Trinity can get the Communion.

The bishop is arguably committing a greater sin, preaching a false religion.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007, 04:35:00 PM »
This is about abortion, not divorce. 

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2007, 04:37:35 PM »
this guy's out of line, but it's another reminder that Rudy isn't being embraced by the far right base of the party.  Expect more of these publicity stunts.  2 days ago, "we'll run a 3rd party guy if rudy runs".  Today, it's "I wouldn't give Rudy communion"

THis DOES have effects upon the religious folks who have voted republican for 40 years and go to church every sunday.  

Dos Equis

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 04:41:28 PM »
I've read about priests saying they would refuse to give communion to politicians who support abortion.  Not that unusual.

Hedgehog

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2007, 05:08:04 PM »
I've read about priests saying they would refuse to give communion to politicians who support abortion.  Not that unusual.

I fully support priests who refuse to conduct same-sex marriage ceremonies, that actually has strong support in the Bible.

Even though I support Gay rights.

But I simply don't understand where these priests who refuse communions to certain people are coming from. That's not very Christian.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2007, 05:29:07 PM »
I fully support priests who refuse to conduct same-sex marriage ceremonies, that actually has strong support in the Bible.

Even though I support Gay rights.

But I simply don't understand where these priests who refuse communions to certain people are coming from. That's not very Christian.

Arguably, abortion has strong support in the Bible too, for those who consider it to be murder. 

Looks like this priest is saying the refusal to give communion is an individual thing, although abortion is apparently condemned by Catholic doctrine:

Burke says that anyone administering Communion _ ordained priest or lay minister _ is morally obligated to deny it to Catholic politicians who support an abortion-rights position contrary to church teaching.

Burke published an article in April in a church law journal that explored whether it is ever appropriate to deny Communion. Some U.S. bishops interpret church teaching to say that an individual examination of conscience, not a minister, should dictate whether a person is worthy to receive the sacrament.

Hedgehog

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2007, 05:44:29 PM »
Arguably, abortion has strong support in the Bible too, for those who consider it to be murder. 

Looks like this priest is saying the refusal to give communion is an individual thing, although abortion is apparently condemned by Catholic doctrine:

Burke says that anyone administering Communion _ ordained priest or lay minister _ is morally obligated to deny it to Catholic politicians who support an abortion-rights position contrary to church teaching.

Burke published an article in April in a church law journal that explored whether it is ever appropriate to deny Communion. Some U.S. bishops interpret church teaching to say that an individual examination of conscience, not a minister, should dictate whether a person is worthy to receive the sacrament.


Yes, I can understand that some people will interpret the Bible that way. I won't challenge that.

But marriage is part of the Christian tradition, and Christianity is pretty clear on the views on gay love.

So although those people are still loved by God, they're not supposed to be together, and I can understand why a priest don't want to take part in making them live together (a life in sin).

Now, if the bishop would be denying gays and other "sinners", he's definitely lost his way.

As a Christian, you could argue that Giuliani is a sinner because he's pro-abortion. But you can never refuse his right to communion.

All the more reason to grant him, then.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 06:04:10 PM »
Yes, I can understand that some people will interpret the Bible that way. I won't challenge that.

But marriage is part of the Christian tradition, and Christianity is pretty clear on the views on gay love.

So although those people are still loved by God, they're not supposed to be together, and I can understand why a priest don't want to take part in making them live together (a life in sin).

Now, if the bishop would be denying gays and other "sinners", he's definitely lost his way.

As a Christian, you could argue that Giuliani is a sinner because he's pro-abortion. But you can never refuse his right to communion.

All the more reason to grant him, then.

I see where you're coming from, though if abortion is contrary to Catholic teaching, I assume that abortion is a sin according to the Catholic church.  If that's true, then it would be consistent for a priest to condemn a politician who supports abortion.

I agree they shouldn't deny communion to anyone, including those who have been divorced, homosexuals, pro choice proponents, etc.     

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2007, 07:33:04 PM »
it's not like rudy gave $ to planned parenthood or fought hard for abortion rights....




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Hedgehog

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2007, 07:58:42 PM »
I see where you're coming from, though if abortion is contrary to Catholic teaching, I assume that abortion is a sin according to the Catholic church.  If that's true, then it would be consistent for a priest to condemn a politician who supports abortion.

I agree they shouldn't deny communion to anyone, including those who have been divorced, homosexuals, pro choice proponents, etc.     

I definitely think he's right in opposing Giuliani. There is definitely room for that sort of interpretation of the Bible IMO.

Seems like we're agreeing in this case then. :)

I'm just curious how these priests reason. Christianity is a religion of love, of forgiveness. And all of a sudden a bishop is claiming he is in control of one of the sacraments?

I'd say it's bordering on blasphemy TBH.

Just some food for thought really, not trying to instigate a big discussion. I found it interesting how such an educated Christian would seemingly lose touch with the core beliefs.

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Dos Equis

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2007, 10:35:39 PM »
I definitely think he's right in opposing Giuliani. There is definitely room for that sort of interpretation of the Bible IMO.

Seems like we're agreeing in this case then. :)

I'm just curious how these priests reason. Christianity is a religion of love, of forgiveness. And all of a sudden a bishop is claiming he is in control of one of the sacraments?

I'd say it's bordering on blasphemy TBH.

Just some food for thought really, not trying to instigate a big discussion. I found it interesting how such an educated Christian would seemingly lose touch with the core beliefs.



Yes we agree.   :)

I think denying communion, particularly for a person's position on a controversial issue, is like playing God.  I guess priests essentially do that anyway since they can forgive sins (according to the Catholic church). 

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Re: Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2007, 10:52:32 PM »
Yes we agree.   :)

I think denying communion, particularly for a person's position on a controversial issue, is like playing God.  I guess priests essentially do that anyway since they can forgive sins (according to the Catholic church). 

According to them, ...they are the gatekeepers of heaven.  ::)

...so when they need another cathedral built, ...they might let Rudy squeeze by, so long as he buys an indulgence or 2
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