Author Topic: Democracy  (Read 1927 times)

Nordic Superman

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Democracy
« on: October 10, 2007, 07:33:35 AM »
Given a scenario (e.g. invade & war etc), there is an issue where a decission must be made, what would you believe would result in the best outcome:

# Everyone is informed of the issue. People vote to the best of their ability, votes aggregated, tolled etc, decision made on the outcome of that vote

OR

# You have an arrangement like the house of commmons / US senate etc etc where these elected peoples make the decision

What would result in the best?

For me it's hard to say. In England I'd say house of commons narrowly, only because people are lazy. (Still think there should be an EU referrendum unlike that communist Hedge).

Do you believe the people should be given more options to vote on matters? There are many laws passed in england that i think the citizens should have had a say in.
الاسلام هو شيطانية

militarymuscle69

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 10:31:50 AM »
Given a scenario (e.g. invade & war etc), there is an issue where a decission must be made, what would you believe would result in the best outcome:

# Everyone is informed of the issue. People vote to the best of their ability, votes aggregated, tolled etc, decision made on the outcome of that vote

OR

# You have an arrangement like the house of commmons / US senate etc etc where these elected peoples make the decision

What would result in the best?

For me it's hard to say. In England I'd say house of commons narrowly, only because people are lazy. (Still think there should be an EU referrendum unlike that communist Hedge).

Do you believe the people should be given more options to vote on matters? There are many laws passed in england that i think the citizens should have had a say in.

our Generals go to war college and study military tactics from the inside for 20+ years before they make reccomendations to the SecDef/Pres on going to war. They don't base decisions on heart, which is where the average person would base their decision
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JBGRAY

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 02:32:23 PM »
In the given scenario of invasion and war, I think the decision should be left to elected officials.  Officials that we of course elected through popular vote.  Many of these officials are more "enlightened" and have access to classified information, information that which may justify the reasons for going to war and is not privy to public dissemination.  Plus, as 240 likes to ascertain, the people at the highest level, as well as a minority of the US citizenry, know that it takes borderline illegal actions and controversial measures in order to maintain our way of life.  While I'd love for there for there to be a worthy alternative action against this, it is unlikely we will test or mention it, partially do to the powerful lobbyists that oppose such a measure(Big Oil, Wal-Mart, the Israeli Lobby).

Besides, have you seen or heard the majority of our voters and the basis of things they vote on?  I believe the vast majority do not know the issues and vote according to frivolous things, such as family political history, race/sex of the candidate, religion of the candidate, and others.  In addition, have you heard some of the common person's perceptions and reasons as to exactly WHY we should leave Iraq?  I sure as hell wouldn't based on their word alone, and you propose giving them that sort of power?  I'd guarantee there'd be a referendum on sending the troops BACK to Iraq because gas hit over 7 dollars a gallon.

We're not all informed Getbig Political Board posters  ;)

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 02:52:15 PM »
In the given scenario of invasion and war, I think the decision should be left to elected officials.  Officials that we of course elected through popular vote.  Many of these officials are more "enlightened" and have access to classified information, information that which may justify the reasons for going to war and is not privy to public dissemination.  Plus, as 240 likes to ascertain, the people at the highest level, as well as a minority of the US citizenry, know that it takes borderline illegal actions and controversial measures in order to maintain our way of life.  While I'd love for there for there to be a worthy alternative action against this, it is unlikely we will test or mention it, partially do to the powerful lobbyists that oppose such a measure(Big Oil, Wal-Mart, the Israeli Lobby).

Besides, have you seen or heard the majority of our voters and the basis of things they vote on?  I believe the vast majority do not know the issues and vote according to frivolous things, such as family political history, race/sex of the candidate, religion of the candidate, and others.  In addition, have you heard some of the common person's perceptions and reasons as to exactly WHY we should leave Iraq?  I sure as hell wouldn't based on their word alone, and you propose giving them that sort of power?  I'd guarantee there'd be a referendum on sending the troops BACK to Iraq because gas hit over 7 dollars a gallon.

We're not all informed Getbig Political Board posters  ;)
end thread :)

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 08:58:08 PM »
LOL @ the referendum to lower gas prices.

Most would agree.  Imagine food prices going up 300% too.  Yeah, we'd all be voting for a war again hahahaha.

And really, I don't give a shit if the people running the place have to break some rules worldwide if it keeps things nice here.  I'm sorry, but it's true.  And you all agree to some extent.  Politics is such an exercise in futility.  There are a group of 6 or 8 folks who have a realistic chance at winning, and they're already all on the same page: Stay in Iraq, let's get ready to cook Iran.  Period.  So the agenda is the same no matter who gets in.  And none of us would really change it - we just talk like that to clear the conscience.

LOL... last night, Rudy said if Iraq didn't have oil, we never would have invaded.  And that Iran would be a "paper dragon" making weak threats, except they have oil.  So, the US should act on them to protect it.  LOL!  the honesty is actually refreshing finally.  No more BS about WMD... we're not even going to hit their facilities now.  It's all about destablizing their infrastructure and putting in our oil mgmt team.

You can say I'm wrong, but I'll point at afghanistan and iraq as two reasons I'm right.  And in 4 years, we'll be ratcheting up the war machine against syria.  You know it's true. 

MB_722

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 10:28:03 PM »
Ron Paul - Hardball 10-09-07

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QiYNgRjOZzs


Decker

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 08:18:12 AM »
...it takes borderline illegal actions and controversial measures in order to maintain our way of life.  While I'd love for there for there to be a worthy alternative action against this, it is unlikely we will test or mention it, partially do to the powerful lobbyists that oppose such a measure(Big Oil, Wal-Mart, the Israeli Lobby).

...
Of course the rejoinder to this is that once the effects of the US's "borderline illegal actions" are understood by the public after a fact-based analysis, the effort to secure our way of life--ie. $3/gallon instead of $7/gallon--would be brought under scrutiny.

The left wing media has done a great job of NOT showing the mutilated or the dead from Iraq along with NOT writing about the illegality of the Iraq invasion.  But I'll be damned if the left wing media shows Bush giving his propaganda talks in front of a military audience time and again.

If the public sees the Iraq invasion in terms of death and destruction and instability on a more consistent basis and in a more concrete fashion, perhaps the facile rationale of 'maintaining our way of life' would take on a different, more human, tone.

As for the corporate powers that be, they can be controlled by castrating lobbyists with federally funded elections and stripping the coporate entity of 'personhood' under our Constitution.  That's a start.

Or we can roll over and view these man-made monstrosities as forces of nature that must be acknowledged and surrendered to.

militarymuscle69

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2007, 08:21:35 AM »
Of course the rejoinder to this is that once the effects of the US's "borderline illegal actions" are understood by the public after a fact-based analysis, the effort to secure our way of life--ie. $3/gallon instead of $7/gallon--would be brought under scrutiny.

The left wing media has done a great job of NOT showing the mutilated or the dead from Iraq along with NOT writing about the illegality of the Iraq invasion.  But I'll be damned if the left wing media shows Bush giving his propaganda talks in front of a military audience time and again.

If the public sees the Iraq invasion in terms of death and destruction and instability on a more consistent basis and in a more concrete fashion, perhaps the facile rationale of 'maintaining our way of life' would take on a different, more human, tone.

As for the corporate powers that be, they can be controlled by castrating lobbyists with federally funded elections and stripping the coporate entity of 'personhood' under our Constitution.  That's a start.

Or we can roll over and view these man-made monstrosities as forces of nature that must be acknowledged and surrendered to.

so during your time spent in Iraq pre-invasion, you thought it was more stable?
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Decker

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2007, 08:49:05 AM »
so during your time spent in Iraq pre-invasion, you thought it was more stable?
Pre-invasion Iraq under Hussein was not engaged in an all out civil war the way Post-invasion Iraq is today.

Unless you know something about the current situation that the rest of us don't.

militarymuscle69

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 10:24:38 AM »
Pre-invasion Iraq under Hussein was not engaged in an all out civil war the way Post-invasion Iraq is today.

Unless you know something about the current situation that the rest of us don't.

post invasion Iraq is only engaged in civil war in very small areas. I guess EVERYONE in Iraq  living in terror from Saddam and his kids is better than a small percentage engaged in civil war?
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Camel Jockey

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 10:47:39 AM »
The latter.

240 is Back

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 10:54:30 AM »
post invasion Iraq is only engaged in civil war in very small areas. I guess EVERYONE in Iraq  living in terror from Saddam and his kids is better than a small percentage engaged in civil war?

1) What percentage of Iraqis are engaged in the civil war?
(You said small, so at the very least you should be able to give us a decent estimate)

2) Do you consider innocent civilians killed/wounded daily to be "engaged" in civil war? 

Decker

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 10:59:53 AM »
post invasion Iraq is only engaged in civil war in very small areas. I guess EVERYONE in Iraq  living in terror from Saddam and his kids is better than a small percentage engaged in civil war?
Please show me a link that verifies the civil war is only in small areas of Iraq.

What business is it of yours or the US's how the Iraqis lived their lives?  

Is the US the world's police?

What are your views on invading other oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabi and Egypt?

240 is Back

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2007, 11:22:55 AM »
Please show me a link that verifies the civil war is only in small areas of Iraq.

He won't.  He makes up numbers regularly.  He once mocked me for talking about Canada's oil.  MM69 is like headhunter6 with downs syndrome (no offense, BB). 

Decker

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2007, 11:29:38 AM »
He won't.  He makes up numbers regularly.  He once mocked me for talking about Canada's oil.  MM69 is like headhunter6 with downs syndrome (no offense, BB). 
I think he's a smart person.  I think that he's defending the life he has chosen the best he can.  He can't help it that the honor of the military has been desecrated by the Bush administration. B/c of that, he is backing the wrong pony.

militarymuscle69

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2007, 11:52:37 AM »
1) What percentage of Iraqis are engaged in the civil war?
(You said small, so at the very least you should be able to give us a decent estimate)

2) Do you consider innocent civilians killed/wounded daily to be "engaged" in civil war? 

You know it is a small percentage 240, because you are smarter than most on here. Everyone knows that not even all of baghdad is in conflict much less all of Iraq. Pre-war, ALL of Iraq was oppressed.

As far as your second question, it happens both ways. Some are killed by civil war infighting, some are killed by religious nutbags and their carbombs

The US has always been the worlds police Decker, and yes, we still are

Saudi and Egypt aren't comparable to Iraq...and yes I have been to both..you?

240 you know I never made up numbers about canada's oil but I do remember you sending me this PM about that same issue when later that day you were caught "making" up shit about the NG

"i admit i was wrong on the guard issue, i'm just having fun with ya dude.  i don't claim to know everything about the military, and I thank you for the job youre doing there."

So no need to bring up old issues little guy

Last but not least, I am not a Bush backer Decker, but like most here you skim read and don't try and learn a person's point of view. The honor of the military is in no way desecrated as I observed in Detroit a couple weeks ago when 1,000 plus people welcomed back a soldier from Iraq, Or the countless thanks I recieve when someone finds out I am military. But Iraq is and will be better off because of us being there. As soon as you spend one day on the ground there and stop getting tainted points of view I will debate that issue with you
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Decker

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2007, 12:14:29 PM »
You know it is a small percentage 240, because you are smarter than most on here. Everyone knows that not even all of baghdad is in conflict much less all of Iraq. Pre-war, ALL of Iraq was oppressed.

As far as your second question, it happens both ways. Some are killed by civil war infighting, some are killed by religious nutbags and their carbombs

The US has always been the worlds police Decker, and yes, we still are

Saudi and Egypt aren't comparable to Iraq...and yes I have been to both..you?

240 you know I never made up numbers about canada's oil but I do remember you sending me this PM about that same issue when later that day you were caught "making" up shit about the NG

"i admit i was wrong on the guard issue, i'm just having fun with ya dude.  i don't claim to know everything about the military, and I thank you for the job youre doing there."

So no need to bring up old issues little guy

Last but not least, I am not a Bush backer Decker, but like most here you skim read and don't try and learn a person's point of view. The honor of the military is in no way desecrated as I observed in Detroit a couple weeks ago when 1,000 plus people welcomed back a soldier from Iraq, Or the countless thanks I recieve when someone finds out I am military. But Iraq is and will be better off because of us being there. As soon as you spend one day on the ground there and stop getting tainted points of view I will debate that issue with you

If you support the invasion of IRaq or you are, or were, in Iraq fighting the Iraqis you are a Bush Backer by virtue of those facts.

Bush has desecrated the military b/c he's turned it into a group of murdering thugs (that's why a legal foundation for use of force is important--without it, the military is just murdering).  The cheering for the guy in Detroit is for him and the vestiges of respect the military has carried since WWII.

As for all of Iraq being oppressed by Hussein, that's just not true.  How about the Al Qaeda in Iraq that Hussein wanted dead?  He could not reach them b/c they were in areas of Iraq outside of his control.

240 is Back

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2007, 12:21:55 PM »
You know it is a small percentage 240

Yes.  But .001% of a population is very capable of making the other 99.999% live in terror/chaos.

militarymuscle69

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2007, 12:48:18 PM »
If you support the invasion of IRaq or you are, or were, in Iraq fighting the Iraqis you are a Bush Backer by virtue of those facts.

Bush has desecrated the military b/c he's turned it into a group of murdering thugs (that's why a legal foundation for use of force is important--without it, the military is just murdering).  The cheering for the guy in Detroit is for him and the vestiges of respect the military has carried since WWII.

As for all of Iraq being oppressed by Hussein, that's just not true.  How about the Al Qaeda in Iraq that Hussein wanted dead?  He could not reach them b/c they were in areas of Iraq outside of his control.

I'm not a Bush backer because I am in the military jackass. I joined with Bill at the helm and will see at least 3 more before I punch out. I will Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, and obey the orders of the officers appointed over me no matter who is sitting in the big chair. And for you to call the military murdering thugs is crossing the line. I can't help it your homo ass can't think for himself. Look up a few more Democrat talking points and parrot them. You need to get out ofyour mom's basement and experience the world before you continue to sit in the comfort I provide for you and act like you are better. You are an uneducated fool Decker that happens to be well read. That in no way equals intelligence which is unfortunate for you.
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Decker

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2007, 01:01:28 PM »
I'm not a Bush backer because I am in the military jackass. I joined with Bill at the helm and will see at least 3 more before I punch out. I will Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic, and obey the orders of the officers appointed over me no matter who is sitting in the big chair. And for you to call the military murdering thugs is crossing the line. I can't help it your #### ass can't think for himself. Look up a few more Democrat talking points and parrot them. You need to get out ofyour mom's basement and experience the world before you continue to sit in the comfort I provide for you and act like you are better. You are an uneducated fool Decker that happens to be well read. That in no way equals intelligence which is unfortunate for you.
I did not say that b/c anyone is in the military, he/she is a Bush Backer but asking you to read my posts instead of skimming them is too much.

I am sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution too.  I do that all the time in this forum and in my job.  I’m a lawyer.

If a country uses force, and that use of force is illegal or unjustified, then the deaths resulting from that use of force are murder.  I’m sorry if that offends you.  But that’s how it is.  So you know what you can do with your “crossing the line” nonsense.

I am educated.  I have a BS in English, a JD and an LLM—that’s a master of laws.  If I appear to act like I’m better than you with the content of my posts…well I’m sorry b/c that’s not my intent.  Just between you and me, I don’t think I’m that smart…my brother and sister’s IQs dwarf mine.

Your anger betrays you.

militarymuscle69

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2007, 02:33:34 PM »
If you support the invasion of IRaq or you are, or were, in Iraq fighting the Iraqis you are a Bush Backer by virtue of those facts


So that isn't calling me a Bush backer? I fought there.....No skim reading here
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Decker

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Re: Democracy
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2007, 02:43:51 PM »
If you support the invasion of IRaq or you are, or were, in Iraq fighting the Iraqis you are a Bush Backer by virtue of those facts


So that isn't calling me a Bush backer? I fought there.....No skim reading here
In life you always have a choice.  If you chose to go into Iraq by Bush's order you are following him.  You are backing his plan. 

You did not have to go.

Sure that would have complicated your life horribly but it also allows a glimpse into what type of human being you are.

So I stand by my point that "If you support the invasion of IRaq or you are, or were, in Iraq fighting the Iraqis you are a Bush Backer by virtue of those facts."

How does following Bush's order to attack Iraq make you any sort of an opponent of the man?

Enjoy your evening and no hard feelings.