Author Topic: zero carb ketosis question/thoughts.. (Read 4771 times)

candidizzle · « **on:** October 16, 2007, 06:26:43 AM »

It is very common to hear that fat intake doesnt neeed to be moderated while on a zero carb/low carb diet. i believe the atkins diet even allos for cheese and bacon to be consumed.

It is also common to hear from more well informed nutrition advisors that fat intake should be moderately high, and pretty much all healthy fats.

but i am wondering... are fats not a source of energy, just as carbs are? if your body doesnt have any carbs, sure, your glucogan will always be at zero(im not sure if that iss the rigth term...but what i mean to say is that with a zero carb diet; you will always burn body fat once the fuel sources arent present in the blood stream.)...,

BUT even if you have had ZERO and i mean ZERO carbs throughout the day; wont your body still use the fat youve consumed for energy before it will turn to its self for calories?

so..wouldnt the only effective way to burn fat all day and be in ketosis to have a diet with ZERO fats and ZERO carbs... (or, as little fats as possible, with zero carbs, since almost all sources of protein have at least a very small of fat in them)...

But on the other hand...fats are your body's natural testosteronne boosters/regulators, and without them your t levels will fall sharply. and also, without the intake of fat's your body, in theory, goes into survival mode and holds onto body fat, and would burn muscle tissue before any fat tissue as a way of protecting itself from starvation...

so maybe supplementing with a small amount of fish oil ...maybe like 1 gel cap with every meal, eating lets say 6 meals a day, each meal consisting of 45ish grams of VERY lean protein and 1, maybe two, grams of fish oil....

maybe that is the ideal diet for burning body fat and maintaining muscle/testosterone levels.

i have done a diet very similar to this for the last 10 or so days...living off tuna +egg whites and water. (plus a multi vitamin). so my carbs have literally been ZERO, and my fat intake has been close two between one half gram fishoil, to two grams fish oil per meal.

i have only been eating two or three times a day..each meal consisting of between 50-100 grams of protein, and i was drinking lots of green tea and coffee... both of which are zero calories, both of which have caffiene(stimulates the metabolism), and green tea has anti dioxidants.

lots and lots of walking during the day as well....but no weight training. (except for i did body weight ab workouts like every other night.)..morning cardio..and one day i actually did eat some carbs and fats and went to the gym for a full body workout.

the results from this diet were amazing as far as fat loss goes. very very noticeable difference in bf% over a very short period of time. BUT, i DID lose some muscle. not very much mind you..but a little bit, and just in the legs, little bit in the arms. i am thinking that with a higher protein intake, and a small increase in healthy fats+ daily weight training (done at high wweight low reps) will be just as effective at burning fat and keeping me in ketosis, but will allow me to hold onto all the muscel while i cut.

starting this diet today...as supplements to it i am drinking pure l-glutamine+pure creatien monohydrate mixed in water before during and after my workouts...taking l-carnitine in the morning on an empty stomach,taking green tea extract three times daily, taking a b-vitamin complex twice daily, and a multi vitamin twice daily.

littleguns · « **Reply #1 on:** October 16, 2007, 07:26:43 AM »

Yes fats can/will be used as energy as they yield 9 K/cals BUT you do need at least 20 gms of Carbs to maintain certain brain activities and other metabolic processes wthin the body

candidizzle · « **Reply #2 on:** October 16, 2007, 08:45:19 AM »

carbs, OR FATS, i presume...since i have went ZERO carb many times , many days in a row, and i am stillalive and well.

so maybe supplement with 20 grams of fishoil...less when i am eating tuna.

Jerryme7 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 16, 2007, 09:58:36 AM »

Candizzle....do you take virgin coconut oil.

If you do, please tell me more...Ive bought some but Im very afraid to use it because of the high fat content. But I do want to experiment with the zero carb method when I carb deplete to see if it will cut me up. Is virgin coconut oil beneficial to use when I do zero carb?

Please let me know....thanks!

Iron_Sheik · « **Reply #4 on:** October 16, 2007, 10:10:03 AM »

I don't believe you would lose as much muscle if you added more fats or better yet, cycled your carbs.

WhiteHulk4 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 16, 2007, 11:29:27 AM »

Candidizzle,

Here's the deal... When you eat a lot of carbs, your body burns carbs for energy; both from the stored glycogen and from the carbs you eat at each meal. When you drop carbs and eat fat instead, your body switches fuel sources and burns fat for energy; both from stored bodyfat and the fat you eat at each meal.

So what do you think would happen if you dropped all fat and all carbs, and ate nothing but protein. Well, then your body will be forced to use protein for fuel - and you guessed it! That'll come from both stored muscle protein and from the protein you eat at each meal! Did you catch the part about "stored muscle protein"

By forcing your body to rely on protein for fuel, your body WILL take it from wherever it is available - and your muscle tissue is always available!

If you want to encourage your body to burn FAT not MUSCLE, then you need to feed it fat; so that it can get used to burning fat for fuel! Obviously, the higher the ratio of healthy fats to saturated fats (no need for trans fats EVER), the better.

Seriously dude, take what you've been doing and replace about 400-600 calories from protein with calories from Flax Oil or Fish Oil and I GUARANTEE that the fat will melt off at a MUCH FASTER rate than what you've been seeing.

In addition, you REALLY should try to carb-load at least one day per week (after you've followed the low-carb phase for 2 straight weeks). You could basically eat unlimited amounts of carbs on that day, and you won't see one ounce of fat return. But keep it to a day; and do a full-body workout the very next morning.

Good Luck!

The_Crusher · « **Reply #6 on:** October 17, 2007, 12:30:37 PM »

Quote from: WhiteHulk4 on October 16, 2007, 11:29:27 AM

Candidizzle,

Here's the deal... When you eat a lot of carbs, your body burns carbs for energy; both from the stored glycogen and from the carbs you eat at each meal. When you drop carbs and eat fat instead, your body switches fuel sources and burns fat for energy; both from stored bodyfat and the fat you eat at each meal.

So what do you think would happen if you dropped all fat and all carbs, and ate nothing but protein. Well, then your body will be forced to use protein for fuel - and you guessed it! That'll come from both stored muscle protein and from the protein you eat at each meal! Did you catch the part about "stored muscle protein" By forcing your body to rely on protein for fuel, your body WILL take it from wherever it is available - and your muscle tissue is always available!

If you want to encourage your body to burn FAT not MUSCLE, then you need to feed it fat; so that it can get used to burning fat for fuel! Obviously, the higher the ratio of healthy fats to saturated fats (no need for trans fats EVER), the better.

Seriously dude, take what you've been doing and replace about 400-600 calories from protein with calories from Flax Oil or Fish Oil and I GUARANTEE that the fat will melt off at a MUCH FASTER rate than what you've been seeing.

In addition, you REALLY should try to carb-load at least one day per week (after you've followed the low-carb phase for 2 straight weeks). You could basically eat unlimited amounts of carbs on that day, and you won't see one ounce of fat return. But keep it to a day; and do a full-body workout the very next morning.

Good Luck!

WhiteHulk4,

Nice write up! ~ The_Crusher

WhiteHulk4 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2007, 10:50:05 AM »

Thanks dude!

Pete Nice · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2007, 01:25:00 PM »

Quote from: WhiteHulk4 on October 16, 2007, 11:29:27 AM

Candidizzle,

Here's the deal... When you eat a lot of carbs, your body burns carbs for energy; both from the stored glycogen and from the carbs you eat at each meal. When you drop carbs and eat fat instead, your body switches fuel sources and burns fat for energy; both from stored bodyfat and the fat you eat at each meal.

So what do you think would happen if you dropped all fat and all carbs, and ate nothing but protein. Well, then your body will be forced to use protein for fuel - and you guessed it! That'll come from both stored muscle protein and from the protein you eat at each meal! Did you catch the part about "stored muscle protein" By forcing your body to rely on protein for fuel, your body WILL take it from wherever it is available - and your muscle tissue is always available!

If you want to encourage your body to burn FAT not MUSCLE, then you need to feed it fat; so that it can get used to burning fat for fuel! Obviously, the higher the ratio of healthy fats to saturated fats (no need for trans fats EVER), the better.

Seriously dude, take what you've been doing and replace about 400-600 calories from protein with calories from Flax Oil or Fish Oil and I GUARANTEE that the fat will melt off at a MUCH FASTER rate than what you've been seeing.

In addition, you REALLY should try to carb-load at least one day per week (after you've followed the low-carb phase for 2 straight weeks). You could basically eat unlimited amounts of carbs on that day, and you won't see one ounce of fat return. But keep it to a day; and do a full-body workout the very next morning.

Good Luck!

yeah, good stuff White hulk

candidizzle · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2007, 01:27:49 PM »

hmm..after reading this post...it does make sense. and i am thinking that taking one capsule of fish oil before my morning cardio might help me burn more fat. what do you think?

Pete Nice · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2007, 01:34:01 PM »

might help a little as during your morning cardio your body will be searching for some fuel. It might also help spare some muscle tissue. The only problem is that you would be supplying your body with extra fat when your body could be using what you already have...would maybe be better if you had a liquid form of it like the Coromega stuff as studies have shown your body absorbs it much quicker

candidizzle · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2007, 01:36:47 PM »

Quote from: Pete Nice on October 18, 2007, 01:34:01 PM

might help a little as during your morning cardio your body will be searching for some fuel. It might also help spare some muscle tissue. The only problem is that you would be supplying your body with extra fat when your body could be using what you already have...would maybe be better if you had a liquid form of it like the Coromega stuff as studies have shown your body absorbs it much quicker

yes that is what i was thinking. starved cardio is thought to make your body use itself for energy..and the low intensity makes it go for fat instead of proteins. feeding it a very small amount of fat (9 calories worth) would get it into the fat burning mode (using ketones for energy) and makign it very easy to slip over to using body fat ketones as opposed to ingested ketones...

what do you guys think? makes sense right?

WhiteHulk4 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2007, 02:55:46 PM »

One capsule of fish oil isn't going to do much one way or another. It is true that if you feed your body some fuel before your workout, whatever it is, your body is going to burn that fuel during your workout. So if you eat a bowl of cereal before cardio, you're going to burn those carbs during cardio. And if you take some Flax Oil before your cardio, your body is probably going to burn that during your cardio.

But think about it. If you take 1 Tbsp of Flax Oil 1st thing, that's only 120 calories and it's going to encourage your body to use fat for fuel during your cardio. I sure hope you're going to burn more than 120 calories during your cardio! If you burn 500 calories total, you're all but guaranteeing that 380 calories are going to come straight from your stored body fat.

Another great time (when cutting carbs) is to take Flax Oil (or fish oil - and SPOONFULLS not capsules) immediately after your workout. That's when your body is starving for fuel... Give it some immediately and whatever it is, in this case fat, that's going to move up the pyramid real quick of your body's preferred source of fuel.

I just read your post again, and 9 calories of anything might at as well be nothing at all. If you gave a starving man 9 calories of food, he'd still be starving! If you're body is hungry for fuel, you've got to give it something it can actually use.

Has Beens · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2007, 04:27:29 PM »

Quote from: WhiteHulk4 on October 18, 2007, 02:55:46 PM

One capsule of fish oil isn't going to do much one way or another. It is true that if you feed your body some fuel before your workout, whatever it is, your body is going to burn that fuel during your workout. So if you eat a bowl of cereal before cardio, you're going to burn those carbs during cardio. And if you take some Flax Oil before your cardio, your body is probably going to burn that during your cardio.

But think about it. If you take 1 Tbsp of Flax Oil 1st thing, that's only 120 calories and it's going to encourage your body to use fat for fuel during your cardio. I sure hope you're going to burn more than 120 calories during your cardio! If you burn 500 calories total, you're all but guaranteeing that 380 calories are going to come straight from your stored body fat.

Another great time (when cutting carbs) is to take Flax Oil (or fish oil - and SPOONFULLS not capsules) immediately after your workout. That's when your body is starving for fuel... Give it some immediately and whatever it is, in this case fat, that's going to move up the pyramid real quick of your body's preferred source of fuel.

I just read your post again, and 9 calories of anything might at as well be nothing at all. If you gave a starving man 9 calories of food, he'd still be starving! If you're body is hungry for fuel, you've got to give it something it can actually use.

This is new to me but makes perfect sense. For example, If doing AM cardio on an empty stomach...how long prior to cardio should be flax be taken ?

candidizzle · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2007, 04:49:49 PM »

Quote from: WhiteHulk4 on October 18, 2007, 02:55:46 PM

Another great time (when cutting carbs) is to take Flax Oil (or fish oil - and SPOONFULLS not capsules) immediately after your workout. That's when your body is starving for fuel... Give it some immediately and whatever it is, in this case fat, that's going to move up the pyramid real quick of your body's preferred source of fuel.

I just read your post again, and 9 calories of anything might at as well be nothing at all. If you gave a starving man 9 calories of food, he'd still be starving! If you're body is hungry for fuel, you've got to give it something it can actually use.

wow you seem very knowledgeable. i hoep you dont mind answering my questions..

my idea is exactly what you said....giving my body fat for fuel, then burning more fuel than i gave it, will guarantee that my body is using fat for fuel the rest of the exercise.....so in order to achieve this guarantee; and yet maximize the amount of burned fat, i would need to give my body the lowest effective amount of fat to get it to guarantee the burning of fat for the rest of the workout. my guess was that any amount of useable fat would be enough; just because it would get your body using ketones(ketones...that is the right term, yes?), and thus it would keep using fat for the rest of the cardio..

when cutting down on carbs...the atkins diet, even in stage 1, recommends that you get 20 grams of carbs a day. and the palumbo diet recommends you get 50 grams. what do you think? i would think that zero carbs would be the most effecient way of getting your body to use fat. should i intake any carbs ata ll? and if so, how much? since there is a discrepency between the two diets already...

and if you dont mind answering another question... how much fat do i need to take in per day if i am 195 lbs, 5'11'' and 12 %bf. i am cutting(obviously) and my carb intake is zero(unless of course you say that the 20 gram or 50 gram approach is better).

WhiteHulk4 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2007, 07:52:45 AM »

Once your body gets accustomed to burning fat as it's primary source of fuel - you're in ketosis. You don't need to be on a ZERO CARB diet to be in ketosis. You just have to feed your body quite a bit less than it needs to get by on.

So if you're the true target audience of the Atkins Diet, which is couch slugs; then you would need to stay below 20 grams a day. However, the reason Palumbo is recommending 50 grams, is because he knows his audience is probably busting ass in the gym!

Think about it in terms of calorie ratios. An effective low carb scenario would be about 45% protein, 45% fat and 10% carbs. If you're eating 2,000 calories a day, then that's exactly 50 grams of carbs all day. If your body is only getting 10% of it's fuel from carbs, it's not going to choose that fuel source; because it can't get things done on 200 calories!

The only day that would be effective for truely doing a ZERO CARB day, is the day after a carb up. Because if you've been in ketosis for 6 days, then eat MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF CARBS on day 7; then on day 8, you do a full body workout and eat no carbs all day - you'll be back in ketosis on day 9.

Honestly, when I'm doing such a diet, I probably go through about 3-5 ketostix a day. It helps to teach you how your body reacts to what you eat. It's an invaluable tool!

candidizzle · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2007, 08:26:46 AM »

awesome info! thank you so much whitehulk.

so after 6 days of ketosis i can do one high carb day? or i should wait two weeks?

...i am thnking i might stretch it out untill holloween and make my high carb day all candy and pies! would this be of any consequence in comparison to making it all carbs like oatmeal and rice?

WhiteHulk4 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2007, 10:49:07 AM »

It's definitely good to get a full 2 weeks under your belt before you do the carb up. And on the high-carb day, the more fat you include in the day, the better really. Pizza is perfect on a carb-up day. The higher fat intake, will keep your body burning fat. Candy and Pie sounds pretty good!

candidizzle · « **Reply #18 on:** October 19, 2007, 01:09:12 PM »

OH. ohhhh ...ohh..oh.

sorry i think i just ograsmed at that advice.

pumpkin pie!!! peeps!!! reeses pieces!!! PIZZA!!!

younggunz · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2007, 08:42:24 PM »

just to chime in some info u should always have at least 50g of carbs a day, its not going to hurt your diet any and yes it is vital for life!

candidizzle · « **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2007, 09:15:01 AM »

your wrong actuallly young gunz. consuming those carbs is for brain function. when you get zero carbs, the brain is forced to use ketones for energy. this pushes forward the mscuular use of ketones, and further progresses you into fat loss and a state of prefernetial fat use for energy. also; one of the good things about a ketogenic diet is that once your brain gets over the first 48 hours of switching from glucose to ketones; ketones are a much better energy source for the brain. you will notice a lifted state of mind, an easier time concentrating, and clearer thought.

white hulk; i was wondering....what is the correct proportion of fats to proteins ? is it really "what you feed it is what it will use", thus you have to have more fat calories than protein calories per day in ordser to fully utilize fats for energy all day? or is starting out each day with fat, and supplementing small amounts through out the day sufficient to keep your body prefering fats for energy? and another question...i was always under the impression that there was no need for a caloric restriction pof protein while on a ketogenic diet. i am getting the sense that this is false...that a caloric deficit is still needed. is this true?

i have been thinking that the best diet would be like this
110 grams of fats per day(with as high a ratio of polyunsaturated fats to other fats possible)
200 grams protein per day.

1800 calories... 1000 coming from fats, 800 from proteins.

this would kee your body using fats for energy; since thats what your feeding it the most calories of...and it would be giving you enough protein to repair your muscles.

is this the correct philosophy?

i actually HOPE NOT.

I am hoping that this other theory i have is correct....

start the day by supplementing with fatty acids. do your cardio with only this in your stomach. thus, your cardio should be being done fully on fat for energy. then, the next meal should contain fats. supplement with a few grams of polyunsaturated before this meal. but the protein intake could be whatever you wanted it to be. then....the next meal would contain a small amount of fats; again prteoin whatever you wanted it to be... so on and so on feeding your body small amounts of fat through out the day and in the intervals between meals when the small amount has been used up for energy, then your body dives into body fat stores with ease. at the end of the day, dont eat anything for an hour or two before bed, take a few grams of polyunsaturated and o light cardio just to work into those few grams of fat. then go to sleep....all night you should be slowly burning fat for energy from your body.

would this be more correct?

is it a misconception that only a certain amount of the protein we consume actually gets absorbed? once i was told that the human body could only absorb 35 grams of protein at once...the rest was then shit out. by numerous people i was told this. then anothe rcouple people said the number was 50 grams, and then we shit out the remaining. the most believeable of all the numbers i recieved that applied to this theory of limited absorbtion capability was that it was different for everyBODY, that one body might be able to absorb 30 grams, one body might be able to absorb 70. that it was in relation to body size, testosterone levels, and the bodies need for protein at that time. but still, even with a big body, high test, and damaged muscles...your bodyw ouldnt not be absorbing 100 grams of protein if you ate it, it just isnt capable of doing it. so.....whats the truth? is the an absorbtion limit? if so, is it low enough to actually matter? if not, can proteins be stored as fat? if so, can they be stored as fat if they still have a purpose in the body(there are still some damaged muscles in the body that the molcules coudl repair)?

...if the human body works like i think it does...very efficiently...it doesnt make sense to me that a protein molecule could be stored as fat at a time in the body when there is muscle tissue damage still apparent.. so, if a protein absorbtion limit did not exist, or even if it did but it was high enough to allow for free floating aminos to circulate foir quite soem time, and you did have lets say 100 grams of digested protein flowing through your veins, wouldnt those 100 grams most logically be used to repair as much damaged muscle tissue as possible for 100 grams of protein; and then, only then, when the body no longer needs these building block because they have already repaired every damaged muscle tissue fiber that neeeded repairing, only then would there be a possibility of proteins being stored as fat?

and even then...protien is supposed to be a building block nutrient, carbs and fats are energetic nutrients...how can a building block nutrient be stored in the same manor and form as energetic nutrients? and in the same material as well (adipose)..?

i know i asked a whoel lot of questions, but i would love to hear some good answers to these questions.

WhiteHulk4 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2007, 12:43:27 PM »

You know who I really hate? People that say "A Calorie is A Calorie!" While I firmly believe this isn't true, I do think that you can eat too many protein calories, and it WILL result in fat gain.

You don't just shit out a percentage of the protein from a high-protein meal. If you eat a meal that contains 100 grams of protein, you're not just going to let 50 grams of it fall out of your ass. You're going to digest it all. And what you don't use, will be stored as energy (fat). Granted, if you're going to over eat on any of the three macronutrients, Protein is the one to do it with, because the energy cost of just digesting protein is fairly large. But in the end, you're still going to have excess fuel in your system that you can't use - and as you stated, your body is very "efficient" at utilizing everything - therefore storing excess energy (not shitting it out!).

To answer another one of your questions - Do you need a caloric deficit for a ketogenic diet to work? Well, sort of. When I say that, I mean that if you were to eat at a maintenance level, you'd probably still lose fat - just because you're body has become a fat-burning machine. However, combine that WITH a caloric deficit and you'll lose weight a LOT faster!

That's why I always laugh at the obese people that just go to the buffet and HOG OUT on every single non-carb, greasy, saturated fat filled, nasty thing they can stuff in their face! It's sad really, that these people are so misguided. They probably lost that initial 20lbs (which was all water) eating that way, and think that it'll happen again. Anywho, that's another story!

As for correct proportion... I'd say 45% Protein, 45% Fat, and 10% Carbs. Or 50% P, 40% F, and 10% C. The bottom line is, you can't do Low-Carb AND Low-Fat at the same time... Obviously, the reverse is also true! Though, wouldn't that be the best diet ever HIGH CARB & HIGH FAT!!!

candidizzle · « **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2007, 12:50:28 PM »

thnak you so much for the answer.

so, what food choices do you eat then? whole eggs..?? most seem to require alot of efa supplentation, or have too much carbs in them. like people recommend eating almonds and peanut butter..but they both have alot of carbs with their fats.

WhiteHulk4 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 22, 2007, 01:16:48 PM »

Most nuts are good choices! 2 oz of mixed nuts has about 340 calories, 30 grams of fat, 12 carbs, 4 fiber, and 10 protein. Subtract the 4 grams of fiber and that's only 8 carbs total.

8 carbs x 4 = 32 calories. That's only 9% of calories coming from carbs. Which fits into the scheme of things pretty well! All Natural Peanut Butter has a similar profile.