Author Topic: Let's talk about IFBB judging! (Read 8163 times)

Chick · « **Reply #25 on:** October 24, 2007, 07:27:22 PM »

Quote from: Vince Basile on October 24, 2007, 06:27:44 PM

Ron said even the photographers at the Olympia had various opinions. That usually means the contest was close. That is why you need more judges and 7 is nowhere near enough.
Maybe Milos and I can get together and come up with a new judging method and process? I came up with such a method years ago for an organization where I was the chairman of the judging committee. While in that position I came to see how difficult it was to find good, independent judges. Some were okay for a couple of hours but faded as the day went on. Others showed bias in favour of partners. It does take an intelligent person to properly judge contests because the criterion is complex. While everyone has an opinion, not everyone can discriminate accurately while applying many factors in the process. In other words, some people are better judges than others. When we can respect the judges will be the day that fair contests happen.

The trouble is the IFBB is an assembly of mostly appointed individuals who keep their positions without much in the way of responsibility for what they do. Where is the accountability? There is hardly any avenue to change the judging system without joining the IFBB and being elected to the executive. They still appoint area vice-presidents who don't get elected. Seems to me we are all wasting our time talking about judging.

You're right...7 judges isn't enough.....that's why 13 were used at the Olympia.

Vince B · « **Reply #26 on:** October 24, 2007, 07:32:11 PM »

It would help if all the judges scores were published at the end of the show.

mrusa85 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 24, 2007, 08:18:50 PM »

Results...

http://www.ifbbpro.com/results/2007-olympia/

Stavios · « **Reply #28 on:** October 24, 2007, 08:27:10 PM »

Since Ron judged the Mr.Getbig, I wouldn't take his opinion on judging !

timfogarty · « **Reply #29 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:56:30 PM »

Quote from: Chick on October 24, 2007, 07:27:22 PM

You're right...7 judges isn't enough.....that's why 13 were used at the Olympia.

actually
http://www.ifbbpro.com/results/2007-olympia/ shows there were 11 for each round.

tommywishbone · « **Reply #30 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:08:47 PM »

Quote from: timfogarty on October 24, 2007, 10:56:30 PM

actually
http://www.ifbbpro.com/results/2007-olympia/ shows there were 11 for each round.

I'm gonna guess there were 13 judges, and the results posted, are the final numbers after the high & low were thrown out.

Chick · « **Reply #31 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:20:12 PM »

Quote from: timfogarty on October 24, 2007, 10:56:30 PM

actually
http://www.ifbbpro.com/results/2007-olympia/ shows there were 11 for each round.

11...my bad.

tommywishbone · « **Reply #32 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:22:56 PM »

Like I was sayin'... there are 11 judges.

timfogarty · « **Reply #33 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:34:56 PM »

Quote from: tommywishbone on October 24, 2007, 11:08:47 PM

are the final numbers after the high & low were thrown out.

three high and three low were tossed out. the middle 5 were used to calculate the final score

tommywishbone · « **Reply #34 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:39:19 PM »

Thanks... cool.

G o a t b o y · « **Reply #35 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:47:51 PM »

Quote from: Chick on October 24, 2007, 07:27:22 PM

You're right...7 judges isn't enough.....that's why 13 were used at the Olympia.

Maybe instead of paying for 13, the IFBB should save their money and just buy glasses for the first seven instead. $:-\$

Vince B · « **Reply #36 on:** October 25, 2007, 03:20:43 AM »

I've thought about the way they don't count the highest and lowest scores for each competitor. That is just another way to guarantee consensus. If all judges are competent, independent, and unbiased then why shouldn't all votes count? The old days of getting gym owners to judge is thankfully over.

Suppose you were judging the last Mr Olympia and thought that Dennis Wolf was 1st. Would you place him there knowing your vote wouldn't count if you were the only one placing him first?

Many here are cynical about the IFBB judging system. Is there any way in hell that Manion is going to change the rules just because some point out a better way of doing things? I doubt it. We can be certain it will be business as usual.

Oh, I forgot, we can count on the athletes rep to make the system better. You really have to love the IFBB. They thought of everything.

DK II · « **Reply #37 on:** October 25, 2007, 03:37:20 AM »

Quote from: Mons Venus on October 24, 2007, 02:14:33 PM

Great job Milos !

I agree! Milos is the cure for BB.

Lately his athletes guts have shrunken too!

Chick · « **Reply #38 on:** October 25, 2007, 07:46:32 AM »

Quote from: Vince Basile on October 25, 2007, 03:20:43 AM

I've thought about the way they don't count the highest and lowest scores for each competitor. That is just another way to guarantee consensus. If all judges are competent, independent, and unbiased then why shouldn't all votes count? The old days of getting gym owners to judge is thankfully over.

Suppose you were judging the last Mr Olympia and thought that Dennis Wolf was 1st. Would you place him there knowing your vote wouldn't count if you were the only one placing him first?

Many here are cynical about the IFBB judging system. Is there any way in hell that Manion is going to change the rules just because some point out a better way of doing things? I doubt it. We can be certain it will be business as usual.

Oh, I forgot, we can count on the athletes rep to make the system better. You really have to love the IFBB. They thought of everything.

You wouldn't know if you were the only one scoring him first, or 1 of 11, or 1 of 3, etc. at that point and time....yes, consensus....an average or what the judges thought. Eliminates a biased person, or one with an agenda.

I've already made suggestions for a better system, starting with making changes to the judging rounds....more are coming. Change doesn't happen overnight...if a new system is to be used, it needs to make sense and be better than the old one...

McFarland · « **Reply #39 on:** October 25, 2007, 07:55:27 AM »

Quote from: tommywishbone on October 24, 2007, 11:39:19 PM

Thanks... cool.

I was about to say, damn, you're probably not gonna catch Tim slipping up on here.

mrusa85 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:00:19 AM »

Before the placings system there used to be a points system back in the old days. There were seven judges. 100 points were possible in each round and 7 possible in the posedown. Boyer Coe won the World Cup back in 81 with a perfect score of 307. The placings system in the IFBB came about the same time the NPC originated. Correct me if I'm wrong with the timeframe, Bob.

Colossus_1986 · « **Reply #41 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:02:02 AM »

Quote from: Chick on October 25, 2007, 07:46:32 AM

You wouldn't know if you were the only one scoring him first, or 1 of 11, or 1 of 3, etc. at that point and time....yes, consensus....an average or what the judges thought. Eliminates a biased person, or one with an agenda.

I've already made suggestions for a better system, starting with making changes to the judging rounds....more are coming. Change doesn't happen overnight...if a new system is to be used, it needs to make sense and be better than the old one...

the idea of eliminating the extreme highs and lows (top and bottom scores ) is the best idea...
in a judging panel, conspiracy is always mentioned, but in a case where 6 scores are thrown out, theres very little chance that anyone will try to bribe a judge or carry out an agenda.
if you were to bribe a judge or two, you wouldn't even know if their scores count or not in the end, but in the case that they do get bribed, this elimination of the highest highs and lowest lows ensures a much more unbiased outcome, and more "filtered" result.

i like it.

Chick · « **Reply #42 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:02:32 AM »

I think you're about right with that timeframe...unfortunatel y, the points system didn't work either and we had shows like the NOC where Danny Padila LOST with a perfect score..!

Chick · « **Reply #43 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:05:27 AM »

Quote from: mrusa85 on October 25, 2007, 08:00:19 AM

Before the placings system there used to be a points system back in the old days. There were seven judges. 100 points were possible in each round and 7 possible in the posedown. Boyer Coe won the World Cup back in 81 with a perfect score of 307. The placings system in the IFBB came about the same time the NPC originated. Correct me if I'm wrong with the timeframe, Bob.

BTW...you wouldn't happen to be Dave Hawk or Marty Vranicar would you?

mrusa85 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:14:24 AM »

Nah. Mr Continental USA 1985, lightweight... Chuck Sanow won the overall.

Charlys69 · « **Reply #45 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:19:03 AM »

Anyone knows that the results of the first 2 rounds where very important for the whole competition.

So, there are 11 Judges....9 from the US and 2 from Britain judging the first 2 rounds. The message is very clear, "when you are a Bodybuilder east of London you`re not in a good postion".
Tell me what will happen, when the next Mr. Olympia will be judged by 1 judge from the US, 1 from Britain, and 9 from the rest of the world ? (i know it never gonna happen...).

mrusa85 · « **Reply #46 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:20:31 AM »

What is Round 3 REALLY judged on? Seems to be a big mystery. How do you judge a competitor from memory against all the other athletes? Doesn't make sense. Is this on the table for change any time soon? Was there an IFBB athlete with the athlete rep meeting this year at the Olympia?

Colossus_1986 · « **Reply #47 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:22:22 AM »

Shouldn't Judges be comprised of all the heads of the IFBB around the world?

the head judge from Canadian Nationals.
an Australian Judge, or head of IFBB down there...
French.
German...
etc.

kind of sucks when the federation is the INTERNATIONAL federation.....IFBB
and theres only one outsider in a group of american judges.

Trev · « **Reply #48 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:24:57 AM »

Great post Milos and SO true. It doesn't matter how many judges are judging, they just have to follow set guidelines. I think politics and money rule these days as with every other sport. The panel should consist of respected ex pros NOT a line up of guys who have never lifted a weight in their life - That way, they can respect the athletes and judge accordingly.

mrusa85 · « **Reply #49 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:29:23 AM »

Should all MLB umpires be ex pro baseball players? All NFL refs need to be ex pro football players? If an official can make an accurate calls, they do their job. If they can't, they can no longer officiate.

Author Topic: Let's talk about IFBB judging! (Read 8163 times)

Stavios