Let's talk about IFBB judging!

[Milos_Sarcev]

As much as I know that I will be criticized again - I calculated PROS and CONS and decided to post this ANYWAY...
I would like to emphasize that I AM NOT TRYING to create the problem...instead I am trying to find a solution for everlasting problem we are all facing for numerous years. Subjectivity as a nature of judging IFBB events (bodybuilding, fitness and figure).
 
I know that many IFBB officials and athletes are reading this board so I am sure this will reach ALL THE PARTIES in no time...
 
Well, I am talking about SUBJECTIVITY as a nature of judging our bodybuilding shows...and while we can't measure, time or knockout anyone - we can certainly defeat our competitors IF somebody clarifies the judging criteria...and defines what is GOOD, BETTER...and/or THE BEST.

If competitors AND JUDGES would know what we all really want (we - as bodybuilding community) - maybe we could actually agree on something...that something being - judging!

After all competitors will know HOW TO PREPARE BETTER, judges would know how to judge, fans would be less angry or confused ...or rather shocked with the results and some winners would possibly be at least somewhat ashamed [ accepting somebody's else title (money, glory...etc)...and I would not face another suspension ...or be told to - shut up..
 
Anyway, for years now we are dealing with inconsistent results and waiting for a changes...and those changes never came...Actually - things are getting worse and certainly not better and that's why I think it is time to speak up.
 
Did you ever wonder how judges really judge the show?
 
Do you think they have some point system? Some percentages(?), certain things that they are looking for (?), certain things they penalize or award athletes for (?)...Real MEASURABLE criteria?
 
Simply - they don't!
 
Judgment is given purely on subjective opinion and that could be PERSONAL PREFERENCE of the judge who is entitled to his own subjective opinion...
 
 
Well, in my opinion - judging should consider:

 
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...as ONE ASPECT OF JUDGING
 
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", "HARDNESS", TIGHT SKIN, "SHREDDED-NESS"...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
 
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
 
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK (not leaving it up for imagination of others to THINK what certain physique could look like IF presented correctly...), MISTAKE FREE POSING (#1- many competitors forget to squeeze certain muscles...and more often than not - judges would just go with: "well, if Jay squeezed his legs on Friday during the prejudging - he would have looked better so I would give him this pose considering that I know what his legs and physique looks like IF he posed correctly, #2 - many competitors let their "pregnancy show"...and that's a no-no, #3 - also many fail to find THE BEST WAY to do certain poses...etc...etc...), STAGE PRESENCE (standing in line up PERFECTLY...AT ALL TIMES), HITTING EVERY POSE WITH CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY, CHOREOGRAPHING ROUTINES with perfect transitions, SHOWING PHYSIQUE TO EMPHASIZE THE STRENGTH OF SOMEONES PHYSIQUE (and not the weaknesses...Many fail to realize that POSING ROUND is not being judged for actual posing or movement...Fat, out of shape ballet artist or out of shape professional dancer should not win the posing round by virtue of his posing skills...Posing round is PHYSIQUE ROUND where athletes could/should show their strengths USING POSES OTHER THAN MANDATORIES that present their physiques in that "special light" bodybuilders want to be known for...So, aesthetic guy could emphasize beauty of his physique, aesthetic look, perfect shape, symmetry and balance by doing EXACT POSES to exemplify WHAT HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE...
Conditioned guy on another hand could present his shredded physique by doing poses to show his shredded muscles (or maybe hide cellulite?)...and muscular guy should do as many muscular posses...thick guy presenting his thickness, wide guy his width...V-tapered guy his extreme V-taper...etc...etc
 
If someone succeeds in presentation of his strengths THAN AND ONLY THAN we could say OK - he should have place higher as he is: THIS (aesthetic, balanced, symmetrical...) or THAT (conditioned, more muscular, bigger, thicker, wider...)...
But, many times fans go with picture of their favorite champion AS THEY REMEMBER HIM from before - while only shadow of that physique is being displayed on the stage at the moment - yet "shadow" gets the same amount of points as "sentimental judgment" or "paid dues" treatment from the judges that ALSO consider what once was or what could have been (if in shape)...
 
WE NEED TO START JUDGING PHYSIQUES ON THE DAY OF THE CONTEST REGARDLESS OF NAMES, PREVIOUS OUTINGS...ETC...POLITICS ...
 
I am in a hurry actually so maybe I am rushing this a bit...but I will get back to make some points...or rather - maybe WE CAN ALL START NEW THREAD ABOUT JUDGING - and NOT to argue with judges and federation...Not to criticize but rather to START WORKING ON HELPING OUR OFFICIALS FINDING THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE...
 
To take that "subjectivity OUT" or at least reduce it to minimum...so we (ALL OF US WHO LOVE SPORT OF BODYBUILDING, ATHLETES AS WELL AS FANS) could have clear idea WHY some guy managed to place ahead of others...
 
Judges should be able to explain WHY they saw Jay superior to OTHERS at 2007 Mr. Olympia...(just as one of numerous examples).
 
Did they saw him better in:
 
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...department?
 
I don't think so...as I see many beating Jay in this aspect of judging.
 
 
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", HARDNESS, TIGHT SKIN, SHREDDED-NESS...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
 
 
I don't think so - AGAIN...
 
 
 
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
 
Maybe in this one? So this is "holly grail" of bodybuilding - BIGGER IS BETTER AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS?
 
 
 
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK
 
Again...NOT the case (in my book)...
 
 
So, let's help our judges...which will ultimately help our sport.
 
Give your point of view...and we could at least start SOLVING THE PROBLEM - very easily...

And let's keep it NICE and CIVIL..without unnecessary attacks...

Again - I am looking for SOLUTION and not the ARGUMENT... and I hope we all do?
 
 
 

[hifrommike]

Bodybuilding judging is subjective & not comparable to other forms of competitive judgment.  For all the talk that bodybuilding is a sport, or that it's an art, or whatever, more than anything IFBB competitive bodybuilding is a club that gives monetary (& other) awards to some of its members who participate.  By club, I mean the members who qualify as pros (& for the men, it's a very small group of people considering the widespread desire to "join" by going pro through the NPC) have to accept the control of the ownership.  The ownership's best interests are the influences behind the stated ones of muscularity, presentation & symmetry. 

Since the rule of the judges is final (with a rare exception like Jay's successful legal challenge to his disqualification several years' back), you can look at the actual rulings to see what criteria appear to be at work.  But what really determines the placings will probably never be known outside of the very small circle of people who control them.  Who looks the best on a magazine cover, and how many copies will "sell through"  (meaning how many copies have to be on the shelf in order to sell one copy)?  That must also be part of the decision about who ultimately wins & loses a show like the Arnold or the Olympia. 

[Meso_z]

I think judging should be done by athlets...

[AVBG]

I don't think that the judging criteria per se is the problem.

IMO, in say 8 from 10 contests the best physique wins out clearly during prejudging.


I believe that the problem with the judging as a whole is that that there is no consistant system in judging the posing round. Too much is left to the interpretation of the rules by individual judges.. I think that the judging for the posing round should be modified to a bb.com type of fans choice award, soley for the entertainment value.

In replacement of judging the posing round, I beleive that the powers that be should do another pre-judging round comparing the top six against each other and making sure that everybody is fairly compared.

[NarcissisticDeity]

IMO, in say 8 from 10 contests the best physique wins out clearly during prejudging.


I believe that the problem with the judging as a whole is that that there is no consistant system in judging the posing round. Too much is left to the interpretation of the rules by individual judges.. I think that the judging for the posing round should be modified to a bb.com type of fans choice award, soley for the entertainment value.

In replacement of judging the posing round, I beleive that the powers that be should do another pre-judging round comparing the top six against each other and making sure that everybody is fairly compared.

99% of the time the contest is won in the prejudging its always been the meat & potatoes of the whole contest very rarely does the outcome get decided in the posing rounds , 2001 Olympia was an example of this and the posing rounds are like all other rounds , a physique round you'll notice that the best posers very rarely win the posing rounds and they do sorta have another ' prejudging ' in the posing rounds the posedown where they guys stand side by side and show off their best poses etc

[youandme]

I think judging should be done by athlets...

I say we have two electoral bodies of judges one voted by the athletes themselves

the other voted on by IFBB

[AVBG]

99% of the time the contest is won in the prejudging its always been the meat & potatoes of the whole contest very rarely does the outcome get decided in the posing rounds , 2001 Olympia was an example of this and the posing rounds are like all other rounds , a physique round you'll notice that the best posers very rarely win the posing rounds and they do sorta have another ' prejudging ' in the posing rounds the posedown where they guys stand side by side and show off their best poses etc

That's my point ND, close competitions such as the recent O shouldn't come down to judging the posing round, its too open to interpretation.. Scrap the judging points given in the freeposing round and place more emphasis in the second prejudging, where there the physiques can be more closely scrutinized ie first against second, second against third and so on.

[Milos_Sarcev]

Bob....Ron...any comments?

[Mons Venus]

Great job Milos ! 

[HowieW]

Bob....Ron...any comments?

I think you make some good pts here Milos.
I would like to see a set of rules that does NOT involve trying to decide a contest via some free for all called a posedown. I like the old AAU/ Mr America Ht classes as well.

Plus, I would love to see the rulebook updated to reflect the actual drugs allowed, not just a PR sheet of banned substances. I see no problems with basic roids and related stuff as it has always been a part of bodybuilding at the top shows. I cringe when I read that lame rule book that lists all the banned stuff, they have no intention of ever banning.

[biceps]

Bob....Ron...any comments?

No comments because they agre with you.

[NarcissisticDeity]

That's my point ND, close competitions such as the recent O shouldn't come down to judging the posing round, its too open to interpretation.. Scrap the judging points given in the freeposing round and place more emphasis in the second prejudging, where there the physiques can be more closely scrutinized ie first against second, second against third and so on.

I guess that with this past Olympia if a contest is close enough they can use the posing round to decide the final outcome like they did in 2001 , like I said 99% of the time the contest is decided in the pre-judging but the other two rounds are for a last look just in case something dramatic happened of if they missed something in the prejudging and this can sway things one way or the other again if its very close to begin with.

[Azure]

You should definitely be marked down if you look like you are about to drop a baby.

[Adam Ramsay]

I think judging should be done by athlets...

Hogwash.....just because someone enters a bodybuilding contest/competition/show/pageant...that does not make him/her an athlete.  Thank you for playing....

[davidpaul]

some good points milos

[timfogarty]

term limits, term limits, term limits

athletic organizations should not have lifetime positions

if executives, promoters, and judges knew that they were only going to have the position for a year or two, they are more likely to do what is best for the sport and the athletes.  Instead they do what is best for the company and themselves.

the longest serving people in any sports organization should be the clerical staff.

but the IFBB and the NPC are not volunteer athletic organizations.  they are privately held companies.

[Ron]

Genreally, you have good points. Although I am not a trained person as to what constitutes someone beating someone else at a contest. I have my opinions, wheereas a like the overall physique vs. symmetry vs. conditioning vs. muscularity.

And like the judges, us in the press pits, when we shoot, each have our own opinions as to who should win and place in the top ten, etc.   We like to do that in each contest, and beleive it or not, get 5 of us together, and we usually have different opinions.

I remember at one show all five of us had different results for the top six. So yes, it is a subject of opinion sometimes. Which is way they take away the top 2 and bottom 2 when judging.  By the way, in terms of our private contest on who will win the Swami head between Lonnie Teper and Isaac Hinds and myself, I am proud to say it will be mine at the end of the year in terms of predictions.  Isaac doesn't have it, and LT... well... he miscalculated just a bit.

Probably the main thing would be nice is to see different judges. Like Dorian Yates was judging the Olympia. A few different judges per show is nice.

At the local NPC level, just this weekend, we had Gina Alliotti and Zhanna Rhotar judging, as well as others. It was nice to see.

I suggest that you becoming serious about becoming a judge, and see if you can judge a local NPC show, and go from there.

[Lift Studios]

term limits, term limits, term limits

athletic organizations should not have lifetime positions

if executives, promoters, and judges knew that they were only going to have the position for a year or two, they are more likely to do what is best for the sport and the athletes.  Instead they do what is best for the company and themselves.

the longest serving people in any sports organization should be the clerical staff.

but the IFBB and the NPC are not volunteer athletic organizations.  they are privately held companies.

Stupidest post of the month goes to Mr. Fogarty.

It's hard enough finding promoters and judges - you want to impose term limits?   

Have you tried promoting a show?

Judging is a thankless job and people are always quick to criticize but few step up and try judging themselves.

[the Pure Majestic]

Proof positive that the manic phases of bi-polar disorder are the most dangerous.  No clear thinking human would have taken the time to post that. 
Many people are ashamed to admit their need for medication. 

Milos, please be man enough to admit you have a problem, and get this disease treated.

-TPM

[biceps]

Genreally, you have good points. Although I am not a trained person as to what constitutes someone beating someone else at a contest. I have my opinions, wheereas a like the overall physique vs. symmetry vs. conditioning vs. muscularity.

And like the judges, us in the press pits, when we shoot, each have our own opinions as to who should win and place in the top ten, etc.   We like to do that in each contest, and beleive it or not, get 5 of us together, and we usually have different opinions.

I remember at one show all five of us had different results for the top six. So yes, it is a subject of opinion sometimes. Which is way they take away the top 2 and bottom 2 when judging.

Probably the main thing would be nice is to see different judges. Like Dorian Yates was judging the Olympia. A few different judges per show is nice.

At the local NPC level, just this weekend, we had Gina Allioto and Zhanna Rhotar judging, as well as others. It was nice to see.

I suggest that you becoming serious about becoming a judge, and see if you can judge a local NPC show, and go from there.

I think Milos did judged in 2002 or 2003 at the IFBB Holland show so hi knows how to judge.

Personally I would like to ask tow of the judges from the Mr.O (with out giving there name to the public) that how was the person that dinaid there request for calling out Jay and Woolf. Than make a official complain to the president of the IFBB.

[timfogarty]

It's hard enough finding promoters and judges - you want to impose term limits?   

It's hard to find people because so many people have been turned off by all the politics.   The politics are so bad because of the lifetime appointments.   

There are other promoters, running shows in NABBA, Musclemania, PDI.  But if you don't pay the outrageous sanction fees, your athletes get blacklisted.

Long ago, the AAU was a real volunteer athletic organization.  the AAU district and national chairmen had fixed terms.  Promoters had to be awarded the contests every year.  But promoting wasn't a business.  They had full time jobs and held a contest on the side.  Contests took a lot of work, so it was unlikely that someone could do it year after year.   Contests weren't suppose to be money making ventures.  You rented a high school auditorium or theater and any profit went back to the AAU.

Now, the NPC is a privately held business.  For most of the promoters, that's their full time job.   That's fine, but without any checks or balances, the people in power are going to look out for their best interests first.  That's not always the same as what's in the best interests of the athletes or fans.

[Vince B]

If we can agree about what constitutes an ideal physique for both men and women then we will be able to approach judging competitors better. We also have to define just what bodybuilding is and how to actually judge physiques. The IFBB system is not the best method to judge bodybuilders.

Remember when Ben told us bodybuilding would be accepted in the Olympic Games? Nice try but it never happened. Ben so wanted this to happen that he structured the judging to mimic what happens in other sports. Thus, the rounds system evolved and it has been woe to bodybuilding ever since. Ben insisted each round should be scored. This led to all manner of nonsense over the years. No matter, Ben came up with a way to correct errant scores. Judge the top guys during a posedown!

Bodybuilding judging evolved in London, England during the NABBA Mr Universe era. It also evolved in the AAU Mr America contest. Those were the two most prestigious contests up until the Mr Olympia was created in 1965. The AAU contest became controversial because there seemed to be racial requirements and no black bodybuilder won until 1970. Not even the great Sergio Oliva could win that show. Mr America had to represent the epitome of American manhood so there was an interview component and a sports requirement. This judging process didn't impact on the other bodybuilding organizations.

What happened in England came to be the best method to judge bodybuilders. That contest became very popular and it required some method to split the bodybuilders into groups to facilitate judging so many of them. Thus, the height classes were introduced. This was just a way to accommodate many bodybuilders. There was still an overall comparison between the class winners. It was possible to judge men of different heights.

The NABBA system led to the use of many judges. Anyone who has competed in local contests knows how easy it is to stack judges and show favouritism. In the old days they selected gym owners to judge and that was about as good as it got for spreading the responsibility for judging around. NABBA saw the problem and increased the number of judges to something between 11 and 15 judges. Having more judges eliminates biases and distortions. In the IFBB system they have 7 judges. Then they discard the highest and lowest score for each competitor.That means only 5 judges actually score the contest and this clearly is not enough for important national and international contests. I would like to see the Mr Olympia judged by 21 judges.

If we define bodybuilding to be the presentation of the physique both standing relaxed and posing then we can make criterion to separate the bodybuilders. As everyone knows no one stands relaxed any more. That section of a contest was simply a way to eliminate contestants and not actually score them. Oh, you can award points, etc., but they shouldn't be counted in the overall placings. The idea is to select the best bodybuilders on the day. The best bodybuilder is the one who looks the best both standing around and then posing. The actual posing routine is but a means to demonstrate the physique and should not be scored inself. Oh, a special award for the best poser can be awarded but that ability is not what bodybuilding is about. Posing is important because if you cannot present yourself properly you are unlikely to be seen as the best there.

Okay, we use various lineups to get the top 6 bodybuilders to compare. We could make it the top 10. When those are selected the real judging takes place and that includes watching them stand relaxed, posing routine, and then comparisons. Judges should be able to call out anyone they want to see again and again. This process continues until every judge is satisfied he has separated the competitors. Once the judging is completed there is no further judging. No judge can change his mind. No judging should occur after they can talk among themselves which includes discussions with officials. Posedowns and other displays can occur but they do not count in the scoring. So there is only one score and that is after the finals are judged. The finals are when the top 6 or 10 competitors are judged. There are no rounds scored.

Let's talk about criteria. Well, since bodybuilding is about building up the muscles then the most important factor is muscle size. The biggest bodybuilder, all else equal, should win. Related to size is proportions and balance. The competitor with all muscles large wins over another with small arms or small calves, for example. It is an easy matter to come up with ratios of muscles according to the evolution of size. A guy with 18 inch arms should have calves that are 18 inches as well. A guy with 20 inch arms should have 19 inch calves to be equally proportional.

As well as size and proportions we consider appearance. The shape of muscles and the definition is important. We have terms like symmetry that are not always clearly understood. Symmetry can mean aesthetics and not only having one side the same as the other. Dorian with a torn biceps clearly suffered some symmetry loss.

It would be possible to weigh various factors. In the end you have the overall appearance of competitors and this ends up being the most important factor. This is where conditioning has come to be so important and is now used to separate the competitors. We then have problems because we have to have limits regarding the various components of judging. Can a small, conditioned guy beat a larger but smooth competitor? In modern professional contests the size differences are not so great and so conditioning becomes the factor that separates the bodybuilders. Should this be so is what must be sorted out by judging committees.

Another possible way to judge contests is to have a separate panel looking at photographs. This can be done by taking standardized photos and making all competitors the same size. This panel then judges everyone by what is seen in the photos. There could also be videos to assess the posing routine and overall appearance. This panel could count for perhaps 40% of the final scores. If we had something like this it might eliminate the aftermath where so many argue about who should have won. This would be a step towards having somewhat more objective judging.

The process of judging has been discussed and it should be done so that it is both fair and seen to be fair. There should be no bias either positive or negative. The selection of judges should be done by a committee that is open and responsible. Judges should be trained and not brainwashed. The actual placement of judges should be something to consider. The idea that judges sit close to the stage is something that should be reviewed. It is usually done because you can't have other people blocking the view of the competitors. Should judges be able to mix with the competitors as they prepare for competition? It might be that judges get a better view if they are not so close to the stage and looking up at competitors. Perhaps they should be at waist level to the bodybuilders to best view them properly. You can do this in a venue with seats that slope towards the stage.

The call outs are important and who picks who is called out is crucial. Should it be the responsibility of the chairman of judges or the head judge or a random selection of individual judges or a consensus? There should be no way that judges can know what the head judge thinks about who are the best. Clearly that doesn't happen now. Everyone knows exactly what the head judge thinks and that colours all modern contests. This is the single factor that has to change to make sure contests are seen to be honest and fair.

The judges results should be published after the awards are presented. It is possible to do this because we have done this in the past. Every judges score is there and everyone can see who voted for whom. There is no need for bodybuilders to ask where they were placed. Fans can have copies of the scores and everyone goes home informed instead of perplexed.

There is one aspect I haven't mentioned. That is faults and blemishes that detract from the physique. Important among these are gynocomastia, tattoos, stretch marks and blemishes. Whatever diminishes the physique should lower the score of competitors. Just how much is what has to be decided. Should a Mr anything have breasts? That is something that has been tolerated over the years but something that shouldn't be visible on men.

Should synthetic ways of augmenting the physique be tolerated? This is crucial regarding the practice of site injections of various agents to increase girth. There should be no inserts allowed in bodybuilding contests because that goes totally against the very core of what bodybuilding is all about. You train to build up your muscles, you do not see your plastic surgeon!

There is a huge problem regarding women. Breast augmentation is usually allowed because most females lose breast size when dieting for contests. The practice of allowing breast inserts probably has led to distortions in what we see today.

Ah, the drug issue. Sweep it under the carpet or enforce strict rules against any illegal substances as determined by the Olympic committee and other sporting organizations? If bodybuilding is about training and increasing muscle mass in the gym then there should be no cheating allowed via drugs and other chemicals. Without strict testing there can be no valid bodybuilding contests. There should be off-season testing and disqualification for life for cheaters. There should be no exceptions.

I have no doubt many of us could work together to come up with a better way to judge contests than what the IFBB does now. It would be a simple matter to assemble a super committee and form a new judging method complete with criteria, rules and processes.

[Lift Studios]

It's hard to find people because so many people have been turned off by all the politics.   The politics are so bad because of the lifetime appointments.   

There are other promoters, running shows in NABBA, Musclemania, PDI.  But if you don't pay the outrageous sanction fees, your athletes get blacklisted.

Long ago, the AAU was a real volunteer athletic organization.  the AAU district and national chairmen had fixed terms.  Promoters had to be awarded the contests every year.  But promoting wasn't a business.  They had full time jobs and held a contest on the side.  Contests took a lot of work, so it was unlikely that someone could do it year after year.   Contests weren't suppose to be money making ventures.  You rented a high school auditorium or theater and any profit went back to the AAU.

Now, the NPC is a privately held business.  For most of the promoters, that's their full time job.   That's fine, but without any checks or balances, the people in power are going to look out for their best interests first.  That's not always the same as what's in the best interests of the athletes or fans.

Let's continue to live in the past - that's a great idea. You're really going to reference the PDI as a defense? HAHA

For most IFBB/NPC promoters it is NOT their full-time job.

[Lift Studios]

I remember at one show all five of us had different results for the top six. So yes, it is a subject of opinion sometimes. Which is way they take away the top 2 and bottom 2 when judging.  By the way, in terms of our private contest on who will win the Swami head between Lonnie Teper and Isaac Hinds and myself, I am proud to say it will be mine at the end of the year in terms of predictions.  Isaac doesn't have it, and LT... well... he miscalculated just a bit.

Yeah Ron, You have the "swami head". Oh brother, just like you had Jay winning and when asked why your response was, "I just had a feeling."

[Vince B]

Ron said even the photographers at the Olympia had various opinions. That usually means the contest was close. That is why you need more judges and 7 is nowhere near enough.

Maybe Milos and I can get together and come up with a new judging method and process? I came up with such a method years ago for an organization where I was the chairman of the judging committee. While in that position I came to see how difficult it was to find good, independent judges. Some were okay for a couple of hours but faded as the day went on. Others showed bias in favour of partners. It does take an intelligent person to properly judge contests because the criterion is complex. While everyone has an opinion, not everyone can discriminate accurately while applying many factors in the process. In other words, some people are better judges than others. When we can respect the judges will be the day that fair contests happen.

The trouble is the IFBB is an assembly of mostly appointed individuals who keep their positions without much in the way of responsibility for what they do. Where is the accountability? There is hardly any avenue to change the judging system without joining the IFBB and being elected to the executive. They still appoint area vice-presidents who don't get elected. Seems to me we are all wasting our time talking about judging.