God of the OT or Jesus in the NT: Do they contradict one another?

[Hustle Man]

OzmO asked a very good question about what seems to be conflicting personal attributes between the God in the OT and Jesus in the NT!

It is such a good question that Stella and I thought it warranted its own thread!

Is there a difference, do they conflict?

I don't think there is a difference nor do I think they conflict; My opinion supported by scripture to follow.

What do you think!

Discuss!

[OzmO]

I think actions speak louder than words.

Do you really think every person who committed mass murder or slaughtered a group pf people and said "god" told them really did have god tell them?   How could you ever know all the people chronicled in the Bible did?  I don't see God as someone who would stoop so low and be so petty.   Maybe you do.

Scripture is easy to interpret to one's personal liking.  That's a fact demonstrated by the many denominations in Christianity.

[Hustle Man]

I think actions speak louder than words.

Do you really think every person who committed mass murder or slaughtered a group pf people and said "god" told them really did have god tell them?   How could you ever know all the people chronicled in the Bible did?  I don't see God as someone who would stoop so low and be so petty.   Maybe you do.

Scripture is easy to interpret to one's personal liking.  That's a fact demonstrated by the many denominations in Christianity.

To answer your first question here; No! Case and point The Apostle Paul (Saul prior to conversion) killed Christians thinking he was doing God's will but ofc we know he was corrected on the road to Damascus by (Jesus)! 

I would also like to point out the similarities in the between OT God/NT Jesus & Saul (the Pharisee)/Paul.

On the surface Saul handled non adherence to the Law pretty much the way God handled disbelief and/or disobedience i.e., death to they offender! Jesus and Paul on the other handle showed patience, forgiveness, grace, peace and mercy etc. we really have to compare scripture with scripture to see what God is doing in both the OT & NT. I think you will see the picture that is being painted. I will find scripture to explain my point further.

The denomination disparity, even though closely related, is another rabbit hole so maybe we should stick to what seems to be contradicting personal attributes between God (The Father) & God (Jesus, the Son).

[MB_722]

I think actions speak louder than words.

Do you really think every person who committed mass murder or slaughtered a group pf people and said "god" told them really did have god tell them?   How could you ever know all the people chronicled in the Bible did?  I don't see God as someone who would stoop so low and be so petty.   Maybe you do.

Scripture is easy to interpret to one's personal liking.  That's a fact demonstrated by the many denominations in Christianity.

You don't think that God can do bad things then? Is that what you are saying? That he would just let people die. I think it is very possible.

For my own understanding of events, there is lessons and experiences that shape people(s). I guess it can be summed up that everything happens for a reason.

[OzmO]

To answer your first question here; No! Case and point The Apostle Paul (Saul prior to conversion) killed Christians thinking he was doing God's will but ofc we know he was corrected on the road to Damascus by (Jesus)! 

I would also like to point out the similarities in the between OT God/NT Jesus & Saul (the Pharisee)/Paul.

On the surface Saul handled non adherence to the Law pretty much the way God handled disbelief and/or disobedience i.e., death to they offender! Jesus and Paul on the other handle showed patience, forgiveness, grace, peace and mercy etc. we really have to compare scripture with scripture to see what God is doing in both the OT & NT. I think you will see the picture that is being painted. I will find scripture to explain my point further.

The denomination disparity, even though closely related, is another rabbit hole so maybe we should stick to what seems to be contradicting personal attributes between God (The Father) & God (Jesus, the Son).

I have no doubt that these father and son progressions in approaches can be explained but your answer to my question is not an explanation nor does it address the question in it's entirety it instead just gives an example.


so let's just talk about this example you gave:

To answer your first question here; No! Case and point The Apostle Paul (Saul prior to conversion) killed Christians thinking he was doing God's will but ofc we know he was corrected on the road to Damascus by (Jesus)! 

How do you know Paul wasn't just "seeing and hearing things" in both cases? 

I could talk with a Muslim and he can just as surely tell me why Mohammad was on orders from God to slaughter just as many poeple, kids etc... as was done in the OT on similar orders from God with the same scripture backed conviction you are surely to use.

What's the difference?   

What makes it one credible and another not credible?


I get the Christian explanation of God changing his approach, but don't buy into any of it because i don't think God in the OT is accurately identified but instead used as a scape goat to commit some hideous crimes.  Heck, Bush has said the same thing in so many words in justifying his intentions which in some ways are justified without using God.

[OzmO]

You don't think that God can do bad things then? Is that what you are saying? That he would just let people die. I think it is very possible.

No, the root of what I'm saying here is derived from the notion that "god" wouldn't order men to slaughter a nation of people and it's children.  now, he might order the adults to be killed which would make sense, but to kill innocent children makes no sense at all, hence the OT is an inaccurate representation of God's word.  Add that to all the other Jealous petty stuff that's attributed to the God int he OT and he looks more like a man than anything else.

For my own understanding of events, there is lessons and experiences that shape people(s). I guess it can be summed up that everything happens for a reason.

I believe that "reason" is to give you an opportunity to grow by overcoming a challenge.

[Hustle Man]

I would also like to add that we need to consider the intent of the OT & NT (both spiritual and physical)

We must realize that the OT was for the most part the instruction manual for setting up a new nation so of course we can understand that the OT and would first focus on matters of the law and security for this new nation under its God.

The NT on the other hand is the instruction manual for obtaining an intimate relationship with God on a very personal level.

I know the OT seems harsh but it is because the focus of the OT is mainly focused on defining the law for this very new nation and the emphasis is on the penalties for breaking these laws.

Which again I should point out that Jesus is 1/3 of the Godhead and very distinct in his personality from the other 2/3  I thought I would point this out to show that God's (Father, Son & HS) ineffiable plan to reveal himself to humanity happened in stages, e.g.(Progressive Revelation).

[Hustle Man]

so let's just talk about this example you gave:

How do you know Paul wasn't just "seeing and hearing things" in both cases? 

I could talk with a Muslim and he can just as surely tell me why Mohammad was on orders from God to slaughter just as many poeple, kids etc... as was done in the OT on similar orders from God with the same scripture backed conviction you are surely to use.

What's the difference?   

What makes it one credible and another not credible?


I get the Christian explanation of God changing his approach, but don't buy into any of it because i don't think God in the OT is accurately identified but instead used as a scape goat to commit some hideous crimes.  Heck, Bush has said the same thing in so many words in justifying his intentions which in some ways are justified without using God.

OzmO,

One topic at a time man, revelations in Islam and Christianity is another rabbit hole can we stick to the original thread?

The difference between the OT God and NT God (Jesus) I was trying to point out the progression of the book and the progression of the revelation of God's personal attributes.

[MB_722]

I believe that "reason" is to give you an opportunity to grow by overcoming a challenge.

 

[OzmO]

OzmO,

One topic at a time man, revelations in Islam and Christianity is another rabbit hole can we stick to the original thread?

The difference between the OT God and NT God (Jesus) I was trying to point out the progression of the book and the progression of the revelation of God's personal attributes.

OK,

Revelation of personal attributes is very inconsistent in this case as he demonstrated compassion in the OT but also demonstrated attributes more common in man.    Both approaches failed to stop people from choosing to sin.  Approaching people as a jealous, petty God and making them fear you obviously didn't work and then 2000 years ago doing a 180 spurred about 1500 years of oppression and the hands of the very church created in his name.  Only recently in the last hundred years becuase of the progressively easier exchange of information, telegraph, phone, radio, air travel, TV and now the Internet has our race advance into a more civilized state versus the previous 5 or 6 thousand years where life was far more brutal on all levels.  But some of the OT approach still remains.......accept Jesus or burn in hell.  That's the bottom line, no gray area.  Do what i say to do or die.  No different than the OT, no different than living in a dictatorship spiritually speaking except that no one pays until they die. 

[Hustle Man]

OK,

Revelation of personal attributes is very inconsistent in this case as he demonstrated compassion in the OT but also demonstrated attributes more common in man.    Both approaches failed to stop people from choosing to sin.  Approaching people as a jealous, petty God and making them fear you obviously didn't work and then 2000 years ago doing a 180 spurred about 1500 years of oppression and the hands of the very church created in his name.  Only recently in the last hundred years becuase of the progressively easier exchange of information, telegraph, phone, radio, air travel, TV and now the Internet has our race advance into a more civilized state versus the previous 5 or 6 thousand years where life was far more brutal on all levels.  But some of the OT approach still remains.......accept Jesus or burn in hell.  That's the bottom line, no gray area.  Do what i say to do or die.  No different than the OT, no different than living in a dictatorship spiritually speaking except that no one pays until they die. 

I think you have figured out God! Now what will you do?

You see no one will or can obey his every command ergo Jesus came as the sacrificial Lamb (Showing God's love, grace and mercy)! Hence the redemption of mankind through Jesus! Simple take heed adhere to the call work out your own salvation i.e., figure out what God has in store for you if you are one of his! Are you progressing or regressing?

I am so sorry you don't it; You can't win on your own accord! Simply put, "your arms are to short to box with God!"

[OzmO]

I think you have figured out God! Now what will you do?

You see no one will or can obey his every command ergo Jesus came as the sacrificial Lamb (Showing God's love, grace and mercy)! Hence the redemption of mankind through Jesus! Simple take heed adhere to the call work out your own salvation i.e., figure out what God has in store for you if you are one of his! Are you progressing or regressing?

I am so sorry you don't it; You can't win on your own accord! Simply put, "your arms are to short to box with God!"

That's the kind of religious doctrine that demonstrates it's manipulative nature.

God did not create us to fail.  He created us to succeed.

We are a great creation of God's with so much potential.

But Christians see themselves often as wretched sinful creatures.  Sorry, i respect God's creation (us) and believe in him.  I don't get so easily manipulated by some doctrine that says i am nothing with out it (the doctrine).

Also, understand very clearly, i do not box with God, i only box with those who perpetuate the madness of religious doctrine such as that you've written.

We are perfect creatures in that our ability to better ourselves is unlimited.  Only those looking to control you, will tell you crap like your God given human urges are evil and to even think of them is the same a doing them in god's eyes.   Only those looking to control you will try and keep you in their fold with the threat of burning in hell.  Only those looking to control you will make you believe you are nothing with out God (which you are) but will put in their doctrine a clause that essentially says do it our way, becuase know the absolute truth or you will burn in hell.  Only those looking to control you will make you feel guilty for being human.

No those things are not God.   

Those things are man and his urge to glorify himself and feel special.

No HT, I'm far beyond sitting in a fire and brimstone sermon listening to how wretched i am and how evil everyone is and how only a small few will have a heavenly afterlife.

I have progressed far beyond the trappings of a primitive religious doctrine such as Christianity/Islam/Catholicism etc... 

I don't have all the answers that's for sure.   

But i do know this:   The God in the in the OT is a man more often than not.   Jesus in the NT is only a glimpse of the entire truth as sure enough those who convinced themselves they were on a mission from God put blinders on as they wrote letters and started what we know as Christianity, but really is a twisted man infested accounting of the truth.

[Butterbean]

God did not create us to fail.  He created us to succeed.

We are perfect creatures in that our ability to better ourselves is unlimited. 

OzmO, do you believe in "the fall?"  What I mean is that God created the earth perfect and Adam and Eve were sinless, and then were tempted by the devil and fell into temptation and sin?  Do you believe that happened or could have happened?

But i do know this:   The God in the in the OT is a man more often than not.   Jesus in the NT is only a glimpse of the entire truth as sure enough those who convinced themselves they were on a mission from God put blinders on as they wrote letters and started what we know as Christianity, but really is a twisted man infested accounting of the truth.

OzmO, who are you saying is a twisted man?  The human "penmen" of the bible?  Or Jesus? 

Do you believe Jesus is God?  If not, who do you think He is/was?  (I'm sorry if you've answered this somewhere before...if you have I don't remember what your answer was!)

[Necrosis]

what i dont understand is why people who beleive in christianity dont realize or accept that most of the stories are borrowed from paganism and ancient egytian stories

the flood
the prophet
the crucifixtion
the wiseman and emaculate conception


among other stories. doesnt this strike you as odd?


what about god of the old testament? he is ruthless and allows people to die, and orders killings, is selfish and jealous.

people(just my opinion remember), there is no god sitting and watching your moves, how egotistical is it to think that in this huge universe god is watching you, and that your minor actions have warrant in eternity(it doesnt even follow logically). if god did create us, its to do more then entertain him by follow 10 laws. surely there is more to life then this.

[Hustle Man]

That's the kind of religious doctrine that demonstrates it's manipulative nature.

God did not create us to fail.  He created us to succeed. You are correct he did not create us to fall BUT we did fall just as Stella stated.

We are a great creation of God's with so much potential. Yes but we have gone astray turned away. You sin because Adam sinned first and you come from Adam, you received his fallen nature but by God's grace through Jesus (the second Adam) you can be restored.

But Christians see themselves often as wretched sinful creatures.  Sorry, i respect God's creation (us) and believe in him.  I don't get so easily manipulated by some doctrine that says i am nothing with out it (the doctrine).

Because you curse God for what you are and for what you are incapable of doing for yourself. Without Jesus your life is futile! You live only to die, with no purpose and you are a slave to that corruptible earth suit but in Christ you live to impact the world, glorify God, die and rise again to live eternally in his presence.

Also, understand very clearly, i do not box with God, i only box with those who perpetuate the madness of religious doctrine such as that you've written.

All I did was tell you what the bible says and you don't like it! you can argue with me all day but you have a problem with God not me! I presented God's word not my opinion but hate me Jesus said you would becauseyou hated him first

We are perfect creatures in that our ability to better ourselves is unlimited.  Only those looking to control you, will tell you crap like your God given human urges are evil and to even think of them is the same a doing them in god's eyes.   Only those looking to control you will try and keep you in their fold with the threat of burning in hell.  Only those looking to control you will make you believe you are nothing with out God (which you are) but will put in their doctrine a clause that essentially says do it our way, becuase know the absolute truth or you will burn in hell.  Only those looking to control you will make you feel guilty for being human.

You are a humanist, thats you religion and you serve the god of this corruptible world the prince and power of the air who deceives you daily!

No those things are not God.   

Those things are man and his urge to glorify himself and feel special.

No HT, I'm far beyond sitting in a fire and brimstone sermon listening to how wretched i am and how evil everyone is and how only a small few will have a heavenly afterlife.

I have progressed far beyond the trappings of a primitive religious doctrine such as Christianity/Islam/Catholicism etc... 

I don't have all the answers that's for sure.   

But i do know this:   The God in the in the OT is a man more often than not.   Jesus in the NT is only a glimpse of the entire truth as sure enough those who convinced themselves they were on a mission from God put blinders on as they wrote letters and started what we know as Christianity, but really is a twisted man infested accounting of the truth.

You my friend are just like Adam and Eve; the serpent has beguiled you and lied to you. You have believed the father of all lies! He has twisted your thoughts how can you say the things you say about our creator but like you we have all gone astray;

Romans 3: 10-18
10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;    
11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."[/color]

Are these verses truth to you? If not may God have mercy on your soul!

[Hustle Man]

what i dont understand is why people who beleive in christianity dont realize or accept that most of the stories are borrowed from paganism and ancient egytian stories

the flood
the prophet
the crucifixtion
the wiseman and emaculate conception


among other stories. doesnt this strike you as odd?


what about god of the old testament? he is ruthless and allows people to die, and orders killings, is selfish and jealous.

people(just my opinion remember), there is no god sitting and watching your moves, how egotistical is it to think that in this huge universe god is watching you, and that your minor actions have warrant in eternity(it doesnt even follow logically). if god did create us, its to do more then entertain him by follow 10 laws. surely there is more to life then this.

I need sleep but I had to answer this before bed!

SHUSSSSSSH, LOL!

[OzmO]

OzmO, do you believe in "the fall?"  What I mean is that God created the earth perfect and Adam and Eve were sinless, and then were tempted by the devil and fell into temptation and sin?  Do you believe that happened or could have happened?

no, i don't think it happened the way Genesis outlines.  the only evidence is commonality with other creation stories form other cultures.  Why is that one the correct one?  how can we know?  What makes it more credible than others?  Because you say so?  The people who decided which books belong in the bible?  How did they know?  Did anyone have the ability to verify ancient artifacts back then?  no.  Many more would still believe the shroud of Torin was genuine. 

the tree of knowledge makes us bad?   It's our free will that makes us bad, the choices we make. 

If Adam and Eve were sinless they wouldn't have eaten from the tree.  If adam and eve were so perfect how did they get duped by a serpent?  So in the context of the bible being sinless means what?   they went directly against the expressed orders of God.  Sounds sinful to me.  Did God plan this?  Why not just make us imperfect to begin with?  Or were we not perfect becuase satan could influence us to sin?

See, we weren't sinless so to speak to begin with.

OzmO, who are you saying is a twisted man?  The human "penmen" of the bible?  Or Jesus? 

yes, those whose self righteousness dominates their sensibilities.  along with those who added and decided which scripture belinged and which didn't fit all to well to  their idea of what they think should be as the will of God.

Do you believe Jesus is God?  If not, who do you think He is/was?  (I'm sorry if you've answered this somewhere before...if you have I don't remember what your answer was!)

Jesus existed, that much is hard to debate, even for an typical atheist.   Now did he exist in the capacity he was written about 50-100 years later after his death?   No.  Do the absolutes of salvation exists as Christians say they do?  no.  We are precious creations of God. 

A god who allowed millions to die in the church created in his name after the death of his son.  Christianity as we see it today might even still be as it was before Martin Luther.   Hundreds of years and his Message manipulated and millions suffer burned at stakes, slaughter under the sword just as righteously as they did in the OT, only recently in the last few hundred years has christianty and it's modren characteristics grown to what they are today.  Before that it was the OT all over again, and it wasn't Luther, or what ever, it was modern science who connected the world, first by paper, then by electrical pulses.

Jesus had a great message.  I live by his golden rule.  Here's a question for you?  Aren't we all sons of god?  don't we all have the holy spirit in us and it's whether we chose or not choose to acknowledge that determines how compassionate we become and that spirit can be identified in many religion but the message is still the same?  Love one another, do good by them.  It's in every religion one way or another.

What makes you Christians think God only speaks to you and forsakes billions of souls he created?  What makes you think he doesn't acknowledge the compassion and love from others who aren't Christians who would never by the mere fact of social/culture proximity become Christians?   What evidence do you have other than a book that agrees with your assumptions?   Basically you have nothing but your believe. 

And as i have seen first hand, once that is proven in some Christians minds that that might not be the truth they revert to old shameful, selfish, immoral ways which highlights the flaws of Christian salvation and proves they were impostors all along.  (the 2 people i'm pretty close to became this way long after i had these beliefs,,,  can you imagine a evangelist stealing....thousands and still preaching?  lol)


the funny thing about this post is that some people who respond will not answer the questions i've asked.  they find the one they can respond to and only answer that one.  Much like how they read the Bible, finding the interpretation they like and focusing there.

[OzmO]

Are these verses truth to you? If not may God have mercy on your soul!

Would you stop with the purple in my quote box?     it's hard to answer you.

You are correct he did not create us to fall BUT we did fall just as Stella stated.

Oh so it was intended by God for us to be sinless and Satan has more power than God?   If he intended that then Satan would have nothing to do with it.

Yes but we have gone astray turned away. You sin because Adam sinned first and you come from Adam, you received his fallen nature but by God's grace through Jesus (the second Adam) you can be restored.

No, Adam did what Adam did, if he was sinless he'd have never done it.  We are created as we are BY GOD'S hand.  Blaming it on the devil when god is all powerful is stupid.  Adam gave into temptation then before his fall and we give into temptation now  I'm sure he knew who God was.....How then does he and eve choose to believe a serpent over God?  Because they were tempted.....

Because you curse God for what you are and for what you are incapable of doing for yourself. Without Jesus your life is futile! You live only to die, with no purpose and you are a slave to that corruptible earth suit but in Christ you live to impact the world, glorify God, die and rise again to live eternally in his presence.

i don;t curse god for what i am, (here you go with that BS accusation crap again).  I'm thankful everyday for the gifts he's given me and only hope to better them and myself.

By saying you are a wretched soul YOU are the one cursing God's creation.  shame on you.  Seriously.

All I did was tell you what the bible says and you don't like it! you can argue with me all day but you have a problem with God not me! I presented God's word not my opinion but hate me Jesus said you would because you hated him first

No, it's time you accept responsibility for your hubris.  You accused me of boxing god, i have no problems with god, but i do have a problem with how god is falsely identified in the Bible.  Do i have to draw a picture for you to get it?  I know you are tired. 

You are a humanist, thats you religion and you serve the god of this corruptible world the prince and power of the air who deceives you daily!

All you can do is accuse?  you can't address the assertions I've made?   very telling HT.  Very rank and file.

You my friend are just like Adam and Eve; the serpent has beguiled you and lied to you. You have believed the father of all lies! He has twisted your thoughts how can you say the things you say about our creator but like you we have all gone astray;

No, it's your hubris again putting forth the notion in your head that if I'm not with you I must be against you.

Pride.....righteousness, doesn't the bible say something about that?


 

[MCWAY]

what i dont understand is why people who beleive in christianity dont realize or accept that most of the stories are borrowed from paganism and ancient egytian stories

the flood
the prophet
the crucifixtion
the wiseman and emaculate conception


among other stories. doesnt this strike you as odd?

Nope. Because skeptics have been making such claims for nearly 200 years; and such claims have shown to be unsubstantiated or flat-out false, for nearly as long.

what about god of the old testament? he is ruthless and allows people to die, and orders killings, is selfish and jealous.

It's the same old song and dance with non-believers. When injustice goes down, especially on God's people, and He seemingly does nothing or gives people the opportunity to repent, we get the smart-alec retorts, "Where is your God, now?"

Yet, when the Lord has had enough and it's judgment time, now He's Mr. Meanie; he's ruthless, cruel, etc., etc.

people(just my opinion remember), there is no god sitting and watching your moves, how egotistical is it to think that in this huge universe god is watching you, and that your minor actions have warrant in eternity(it doesnt even follow logically). if god did create us, its to do more then entertain him by follow 10 laws. surely there is more to life then this.

What's egotistical about that? Why wouldn't God be able to watch over His creation?

[loco]

OzmO,
You ask a lot of questions and that is great.  But now I have some questions for you.  Please forget, for the sake of discussion, that I am a Christian, that I believe in the Bible, or even that I believe in God.  Please pretend for a moment that I am seeking this "truth" you are talking about.

God did not create us to fail.  He created us to succeed.

We are a great creation of God's with so much potential.

We are perfect creatures in that our ability to better ourselves is unlimited.    

No those things are not God.   

How do you know this?  Where did you get this information?  What spirit, prophet, holy man, holy text or whatever gave you this information?

Jesus in the NT is only a glimpse of the entire truth

What is "the entire truth" and how do you know Jesus in the NT is "only a glimpse" of that entire truth? 

We are precious creations of God. 

Who told you that?  How do you know?

Jesus had a great message.  I live by his golden rule. 

What is Jesus' golden rule? How do you know Jesus said this?  What is his "great message"?  How do you know that this is his message?

Aren't we all sons of god? 

Is this really a question or do you already know the answer?  Do you say "Yes"?  How do you know?

don't we all have the holy spirit in us

Again, what is your answer.  Is it "Yes"?  How do you know this?  Who gave you this information?

[Butterbean]

what about god of the old testament? he is ruthless and allows people to die, and orders killings, is selfish and jealous.

The God of the New Testament allows people to die also.  In fact, death has an almost 100% success rate taking into account Enoch and Elijah who did not die.

Has no one read Revelation which is in the New Testament?  Some of the judgments to come will be far more horrifying than what some call the Old Testament God allowed.  Even as some of these judgments are being laid out, men will still be "worshipping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood." (Rev 9:20)

[Butterbean]

no, i don't think it happened the way Genesis outlines.  the only evidence is commonality with other creation stories form other cultures.  Why is that one the correct one?  how can we know?  What makes it more credible than others?  Because you say so?  The people who decided which books belong in the bible?  How did they know?  Did anyone have the ability to verify ancient artifacts back then?  no.  Many more would still believe the shroud of Torin was genuine. 

OzmO, how the bible was formed etc. is a great idea for another thread!  I'll start it later and address this (if anyone wants to start it now, go ahead)!

Why do you think that people didn't have the ability to verify ancient artifacts back then?  It seems as though a general theme in some people's thinking is that people that lived many years ago were just not that smart.  I can understand this in someone who believes that evolutionary theory is fact and in regard to what they believe was a cro-magnum man or something, but I don't understand why they think it applies to a civilized society, of which there were many, thousands of years ago.

[Butterbean]

the tree of knowledge makes us bad?   It's our free will that makes us bad, the choices we make. 

No, the tree of knowledge did not make Adam and Eve sin.  They chose to disobey God who told them not to eat of that tree.  When they disobeyed Him, they sinned and sin was brought into their world.

If Adam and Eve were sinless they wouldn't have eaten from the tree.  If adam and eve were so perfect how did they get duped by a serpent?  So in the context of the bible being sinless means what?   they went directly against the expressed orders of God.  Sounds sinful to me.  Did God plan this?  Why not just make us imperfect to begin with?  Or were we not perfect becuase satan could influence us to sin?

See, we weren't sinless so to speak to begin with.

They WERE sinless to begin with.  They did have free will and their choice resulted in sin being brought into their world after they made that choice.  Before that they had never sinned.

Let's say you have a "perfect" apple.  It's perfect, no worms, no holes, etc.  While eating your living shoe stuffed with cheese , your hands get greasy and you drop the apple.  Now the apple has a huge bruise and is no longer "perfect."  It was perfect before, but not after you dropped it.

Adam and Eve being sinless doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't someday make the choice to give into the temptations of the devil who is extremely crafty and the father of lies.  It's apples and oranges.

Did God plan it?  I don't know about that but He did ALLOW it and yes, He KNEW it would happen.

[Butterbean]

A god who allowed millions to die in the church created in his name after the death of his son.  Christianity as we see it today might even still be as it was before Martin Luther.   Hundreds of years and his Message manipulated and millions suffer burned at stakes, slaughter under the sword just as righteously as they did in the OT, only recently in the last few hundred years has christianty and it's modren characteristics grown to what they are today.  Before that it was the OT all over again, and it wasn't Luther, or what ever, it was modern science who connected the world, first by paper, then by electrical pulses.

The people were burned at the stakes etc. because they would not profess to believe in things like the transubstantiation (which is a load of bull IMO) were burned by misguided and probably egotistical church leaders in the Roman Catholic Church.

That was NOT "righteous killing" as you say.

[Butterbean]

Jesus existed, that much is hard to debate, even for an typical atheist.   Now did he exist in the capacity he was written about 50-100 years later after his death?   No.  Do the absolutes of salvation exists as Christians say they do?  no. 

Why not?  Is it because you don't like it or it doesn't seem to make sense to you?  Do you believe there is a possibility (even if in your opinion is minute) that the Jesus in the bible could be the truth?