Author Topic: How to really support the Troops  (Read 1305 times)

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
How to really support the Troops
« on: October 30, 2007, 08:52:29 AM »
This is a great and very unbiased look at the war in Iraq from a technological standpoint...from a Conservative magazine. If the Dems were smart they'd do up a list and really support the troops. Instead of BS politics....do something to help win and get us home. Also another article illustrating some sucesses.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDM3Y2E2OWJkODRkZjJkMDRkODY2ZDhlNDRiNWFiMmQ=
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/279rizcg.asp


There is real war and then there is “war” — the politician’s overwrought metaphor. The best-known examples of the latter are the “war on drugs” and “war on poverty”: Campaigns that were inherently open-ended and unwinnable, and which never commanded the resources of the nation’s real wars. One reason that we have not been as successful as we could and should have been, in both Iraq and Afghanistan, is that top officials in the Pentagon and the White House have not treated these conflicts like real wars — with all the seriousness that a real war entails......
L

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 12:39:02 PM »
The Foreman article has some practical comments on the US's inability to treat these foreign wars in a serious manner.  That's not surprising considering that the president asked absolutely nothing of the american people to engage them in the war movement. 

He asked americans to shop more.?

I got a tax cut!

Shared goals require shared sacrifice.  This understanding was badly bungled by the Bush administration as was almost every aspect of the execution of the wars.

From my own point of view, I cannot get over the illegitimacy of the war from the outset.  To me, making the Iraq war a more efficient war on our part is like a kidnaper treating his victim well: there's still a crime afoot.

But I guess if the Iraq war succeeds, no one will call it a crime.  Sort of like if Treason succeeds, None Dare Call It Treason.

As for the second article posted, it's pretty steeped in inaccurate terminology more akin to propaganda than any honest exposition.  Al Qaeda is in Iraq but the prime enemy in battle is the Iraqis themselves.  The Surge didn't work, according to the GAO, and the only way the pentagon was able to show a reduction in violence in Iraq was to change the way the casualties were counted, i.e., sleight of hand BS.


youandme

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10957
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2007, 07:50:27 AM »
Sooooo


it's been very quiet media with a war going on.....


could it be that since June the surge is actually working?


You can hardly find any news about it....


Head speak on this, last night on Glen Beck, a general was on, and said now we have found our strategy....took 2-3 years too long but we found it..

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2007, 08:03:54 AM »
Sooooo


it's been very quiet media with a war going on.....


could it be that since June the surge is actually working?


You can hardly find any news about it....


Head speak on this, last night on Glen Beck, a general was on, and said now we have found our strategy....took 2-3 years too long but we found it..
The Surge didn't work, according to the GAO, and the only way the pentagon was able to show a reduction in violence in Iraq was to change the way the casualties were counted, i.e., sleight of hand BS.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2007, 08:20:25 AM »
Decker the surge is working...that info is way old...even 4 weeks is old there. The Dems better get on board or find a new cause...if trends stay this way through the elction ur team is in trouble. If the violence is down then we can go about rebuilding the country. Everyday we have a chance to make good on promises and eveyday we help somebody over there is another day that the surge works and we win. Its also one day closert to us getting out of there. If the Dems really cared about the troops and really wanted them home, then proclaiming sucess in Iraq and pushing forth a draw down would serve that interest. They's get their pull-out. But since they really don't care in anyway other then to make political hay, it will be business as usual with the dems.
L

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2007, 09:08:13 AM »
Decker the surge is working...that info is way old...even 4 weeks is old there. The Dems better get on board or find a new cause...if trends stay this way through the elction ur team is in trouble. If the violence is down then we can go about rebuilding the country. Everyday we have a chance to make good on promises and eveyday we help somebody over there is another day that the surge works and we win. Its also one day closert to us getting out of there. If the Dems really cared about the troops and really wanted them home, then proclaiming sucess in Iraq and pushing forth a draw down would serve that interest. They's get their pull-out. But since they really don't care in anyway other then to make political hay, it will be business as usual with the dems.
How do you know the surge is working? 

While I do agree with your conclusion about drawing down the troops, I still haven't seen the evidence that the surge worked.  The Dems can act like the surge worked just to draw down troop levels, but that's another story.

Mad Nickels

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
  • Team MD
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2007, 09:15:56 AM »
I'm confused.

If most of the troops (and I've seen this a lot of places, so tell me if I'm wrong) - aren't the majority of the troops ready to end the war/come home?

And if so -

Wouldn't having them safely home in the USA be the BEST thing you could do for them?

Or a simpler Q - what do most soldiers want more:
1) Victory
2) Come home.

And if so,
How can they measure victory?
I lost my cherry at www.gymstories.com

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2007, 10:06:47 AM »
My job is to make sure that ur safe...so I want to do may job and come home..thats the simplist answer. Yeah everybody wants to come home but we have to finish the job first. I'll be on tour 3, I don't want to go but I feel I have to go. Speaking for myself, I want victoy...the alternative puts u or ur children at risk. It won't go away because we come home. A defeated AQ and asecure Iraq will keep things quiet in that part of the world for awhile. Decker....the surge is forcing AQ out of key area's. Death's are down. Its pretty easy to see by how many guys are'nt getting killed as opposed to this time last year, and our tactics are way more aggressive. The people are turning against AQ and sectarian violence is down. I guess I pose the same question, how do u know its not. Hell even the media is saying things are better, even by their silence.
L

Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2007, 10:28:36 AM »
My job is to make sure that ur safe...so I want to do may job and come home..thats the simplist answer. Yeah everybody wants to come home but we have to finish the job first. I'll be on tour 3, I don't want to go but I feel I have to go. Speaking for myself, I want victoy...the alternative puts u or ur children at risk. It won't go away because we come home. A defeated AQ and asecure Iraq will keep things quiet in that part of the world for awhile. Decker....the surge is forcing AQ out of key area's. Death's are down. Its pretty easy to see by how many guys are'nt getting killed as opposed to this time last year, and our tactics are way more aggressive. The people are turning against AQ and sectarian violence is down. I guess I pose the same question, how do u know its not. Hell even the media is saying things are better, even by their silence.
Deaths are down and that is a good thing.  I think the fact that over 2.2 million Iraqis have fled the country and another 2 million have been displaced sort of accounts for that.  That's a fifth of the entire population.  http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/20/damon.iraqrefugees/index.html

The most recent GAO report http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08231t.pdf
Concluded that 'enemy-initiated attacks declined from a total of about 5,300 in June of 2007 to about 3,000 in September of 2007.  This decrease reflects a decline in attacks on US troops.  Attacks against Iraqi SEcurity forces and civilians haven't declined in the same manner.

Also, according to the Defense Intelligence Agency the incidents reported by the military re these attacks do not account for all violence throughout IRaq, only those areas with a coalition presence.

According to a UN report from 10-15-2007, the Iraqi people and government is still failing.  There is a massive level of civilian displacement (Iraqis fleeing Iraq). 

The Iraqi government still has not met the legislative benchmarks imposed on it by the US--that was the whole purpose of the surge--to secure Iraq to the point where political progress could be made.

I don't think success in Iraq will put one dent into Al Qaeda b/c by its nature, AQ is a decentralized entity.  There is no "central front on terrorism", that's pre-9/11 thinking.

Whatever comes of this, I just hope the deaths continue to decline.

Anyways, the story making the rounds now is some Iraqi Interior Ministry statement that violence in Iraq has dropped 70% since June of 07.  http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSCOL24813120071022?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true  Of course at the end of that report was this: Police said six gunmen were killed in police raids in Kerbala, 110 km (70 miles) southwest of Baghdad.

Some 50 people were killed in Kerbala in August in fierce clashes between fighters loyal to Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and local police, who are seen as aligned to the rival Supreme Iraqi Islamic Council's armed wing, the Badr Organization.


Obviously the Iraqi Interior Ministry Report conflicts with the GAO findings.

Mad Nickels

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
  • Team MD
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2007, 10:36:41 AM »
You both make good points.

Things are better there.  Why?  For a lot of reasons.  A lot of people were killed last year in local civil violence and AQ strikes.  Those people aren't standing on the same street corners this year, and their replacements know from the blood stained curb that "maybe this isn't the place to stand around".  Population displacement does mean a lot.

The smaller the population, the easier it is to find the bad guys, and the less innocents to kill.  Iraq would be a very peaceful place with only 4 million residents.  Would that mean killing /chasing off 15 million?  Sure. 

Iraqi and US govts will both paint a rosier than reality picture.  Iraqis want to keep their jobs.  Bush wants to keep a Republican in the White House.  They both have motive to deceive.  Military has motive to deceive - as they don't want to look incompetent.  Media, anti-war groups will both make mountain out of molehills here to illustrate the negatives as greater than they are.

In the end, the war will cease when the majority of the US public is DETERMINED to end it - and MAKES their congress end it.  In reality, however, Americans don't care much.  52% of Americans (Zogby Poll this week) support striking Iran.  Based upon Buch claims of WMD.

Fool me once, shame on you...
I lost my cherry at www.gymstories.com

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2007, 01:45:12 PM »
Well if u read article 1, it articulates my point and belief better then I can.  Nobody cares..hence "lets hit Iran", who as it may turns out is or was more deserving then Iraq.
L

Mad Nickels

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
  • Team MD
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2007, 01:56:15 PM »
Well if u read article 1, it articulates my point and belief better then I can.  Nobody cares..hence "lets hit Iran", who as it may turns out is or was more deserving then Iraq.

I dont think we'll hit Iran to be honest. 

Iran IS more deserving, but we're a lot weaker now than we were in 2002/2003.  Yeah, we can volley a thousand cruise missiles at their infrastructure and organized forces, but what will happen?  A power vacuum.  Bigger floods of jihadists into the region.  Two large military units (QUD and Revolutionary Guard) suddenly become 50 independent militias, all with the same mission, and a lot more time to wait us out (more than the US public will give them).  No govt over there means secretarian violence, only triple what we're seeing in Iraq, as Saudi help floods in.  Turkey will open up shop in the north as well, as kurdish terrorism will jump with depleted US forces in the area.

Bad all around.  I think we're bluffing them. 
I lost my cherry at www.gymstories.com

Tre

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16549
  • "What you don't have is a career."
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2007, 02:45:48 PM »

Kidnap a servicemember and do not let them re-deploy to Iraq.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2007, 06:55:47 AM »
I dont think we'll hit Iran to be honest. 

Iran IS more deserving, but we're a lot weaker now than we were in 2002/2003.  Yeah, we can volley a thousand cruise missiles at their infrastructure and organized forces, but what will happen?  A power vacuum.  Bigger floods of jihadists into the region.  Two large military units (QUD and Revolutionary Guard) suddenly become 50 independent militias, all with the same mission, and a lot more time to wait us out (more than the US public will give them).  No govt over there means secretarian violence, only triple what we're seeing in Iraq, as Saudi help floods in.  Turkey will open up shop in the north as well, as kurdish terrorism will jump with depleted US forces in the area.

Bad all around.  I think we're bluffing them. 



I thought we were to for a long time...but now I'm not sure. War talk has cooled as of the last few weeks. I disagree as us being weaker, however ur assessment of whaqt would happen after a bombing campaign is spot on and something I would hope the administration realizes. Crushing Iran conventionally would be easy, yes easy folks....its afterwords as stated above that things become hard...and thats without a conventional invasion, which I don't think was ever intended anyway.
L

youandme

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10957
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2007, 07:39:54 AM »
Things are cooling now with Iran because we found out that their friends, really are friends, Germany won't take so kind to us hitting Iran, and we have China to worry about, since they are saying they will dump our 1.3 trillion in debt, and that would screw us over.


Decker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5782
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2007, 08:12:25 AM »
Things are cooling now with Iran because we found out that their friends, really are friends, Germany won't take so kind to us hitting Iran, and we have China to worry about, since they are saying they will dump our 1.3 trillion in debt, and that would screw us over.


Great point.  It's sad but true that the Chinese own our asses.

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2007, 08:21:50 AM »
I'm not worried about the Chinese...

In the absence of any action, you have two possible options, you have acquiescence ... or you use force to deal with the fact that Iran is trying to obtain weapons. ... What we're trying to do is a third route" that includes confronting Iran's behavior while also giving Tehran plenty of opportunity to engage in negotiations, McCormack said.

McCormack added that the United States is not alone in its efforts. The European Union is debating whether to place wider sanctions on Iran, and the U.N. Security Council has already approved two resolutions relating to Chapter 7 of its charter that deals with sanctions.


If we had not invaded Iraq, what we are doing would not be viewed as the road to war, in my opinion. Defining the RG.Quds forces as terrorists had more to do with economic sanctions then any kind of military move. I think if we get the Europenas on board then war will be put off for awhile.

L

Mad Nickels

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 807
  • Team MD
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2007, 08:36:37 AM »
I thought we were to for a long time...but now I'm not sure. War talk has cooled as of the last few weeks. I disagree as us being weaker, however ur assessment of whaqt would happen after a bombing campaign is spot on and something I would hope the administration realizes. Crushing Iran conventionally would be easy, yes easy folks....its afterwords as stated above that things become hard...and thats without a conventional invasion, which I don't think was ever intended anyway.

Sorry, I didn't mean weaker.  Perhaps "spread too thin".  Guys going back before they're supposed to, using merc forces because you don't have enough military men, lower enlistment (which is HOTLY contested but the numbers don't lie).  All of these factors mean a trend will start to emerge in the coming 2-3 years as its time to re-enlist and a lot of grunts just pass on it.  Officers stay.  But low guys who would make more $ as an asst. mgr at WalMart?  They aren't going to re-up.

The war in iraq has been 5 years, and will be 10 by the time we move out everything but an embassy force.

If we bomb Iran, we just started another 10 year quagmire.  We cannot just bomb and leave, obviously, or the place turns into a chinese/AQ/Russian minefield, launching all sorts of proxy acts against us in Iraq.  The only other option - stay and clean up - and it's like Iraq 2, only much worse.  Those people have seen how to hold the US forces at bay - and they'll do the same.

I think if it was going to happen, it would have happened earlier this year.  Lots of warning sings then, and nothing happened.  Now I think they're just working out economic things, like you said, to squeeze Iran into equitable deals for the good guys, not China or Russia.
I lost my cherry at www.gymstories.com

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2007, 11:35:50 AM »
To thin....rummy was an idiot and when the call came to inlarge the military he said no....he's an idiot. Even the Dems wanted a bigger force. Now we're doing it but the affect won't be felt for about 5 years.
L

trab

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4950
Re: How to really support the Troops
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2007, 05:41:23 PM »
All these wonderfull reasons to let Mr Ahmadinejad (Sp  ::) ) get his own little nuclear bomb factory...

Other ideas please.................. .?