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Author Topic: Protein - Info - If you REALLY want to know!  (Read 32035 times)
Princess L
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« on: October 31, 2007, 08:15:44 PM »

The purpose of this review paper was to analyze past and contemporary issues in protein consumption for resistance trained athletes. The review analyzed the amount of protein needed daily by athletes, the optimal timing of protein intake relative to exercise, the optimal pattern of protein digestion, the role of protein quality in muscular hypertrophy, the effects of added energy on protein balance, as well as the efficacy of protein supplementation.

http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/site/pdf/JISSN-3-1-7-27-06.pdf
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England_1
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2007, 12:51:12 AM »

solid meta analysis
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 10:10:12 AM »

As many of us have suspected, there appears to be a ceiling on the amount of protein in a given meal that the body can absorb.
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 01:39:47 PM »

hm....this would be an ineteresting fact; if true...because it would imply that you could have huge binges on protein and still be losing weight..

I don't think that's the implication, just because there is a ceiling on muscles' ability to ultilize protein, the surplus calories would nevertheless still be stored as fat.
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 10:50:30 PM »

I don't think that's the implication, just because there is a ceiling on muscles' ability to ultilize protein, the surplus calories would nevertheless still be stored as fat.
well if the body doesnt ABSORB the calories, then they wont be in the blood stream, and thus wont be available for fat storage.

obviously, we all already knew that the body can only UTILIZE so much protein at one time....if there was no limit, then the amount of protein you ate would be directly proportionate to how fast you could recover, and consequently= grow bigger. but since obviously there is a point of "no further benefit" in regards to the amount of protein consumed, then the question is, What happens to the excess protein not being utilized? if it is indeed absorbed into the blood stream, then there are a few otpion, it can be converted into glucose through glucogensis, and then used for energy or for fat storage; or, it could be urinated. and then there is another question to be asked, does the body convert more amino acids into glucose than it actually needs for energy demands? and then, there is even another question to be asked on top of that, is excess protein even absorbed AT ALL. 

i think the answer depends on what type of metabolism your body is currently utilizing (is it using mostly lipids or mostly glucose for energy?), how much damaged muscle tissue is in the body at present(how much protein is actually needed and can be used), and how much free floating insulin, testosterone, and growth hormone is in your body.

and i also dont believe that if you eat 5 pounds of steak in one sitting, that your body is anywhere near capable of digesting and sending that much aminos and calories into the blood stream. obviously there is a limit to the amount of calories that you can ABSORB at any given time. you are nto going to be storing the entirety of a meal that contained 5000 calories. its not just feasable.
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 04:53:47 AM »

I would like to have seen more analysis done on protein sources like fish, red meats, chicken, eggs, etc, and how they provided an anticatabolic or anabolic state.  Even though it mostly delt with whey vs caesin it was still a very good article. 

Thanks Your Worshipfulness.  Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2007, 11:08:35 AM »

This isn't really new...and you're still going to get muscleheads arguing that you need huge amounts of protein.

Well, if you're on steroids, you do...because the body can actually USE those proteins.  If you're not on steroids, and you have a genetically higher threshold, then you're probably already taking in enough protein...that would account for those mesomorphs who use the protein more efficiently.

For the majority, all the extra protein just turns into sugar at some point and is either used as energy or stored as fat.  Scientists have figured this out looooong ago. 

Once protein has not been utilized once it's broken down into aminos, then any more is useless.  You don't excrete protein in your urine, by the way.  That should be common knowledge. 

The bottom line should be that if you're taking in a gram per pound, you're taking in PLENTY...if you're drug free.  If you're not growing off that much protein, then protein isn't the reason you're not growing...time to look elsewhere for the cause.
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2007, 06:19:19 AM »

The bottom line should be that if you're taking in a gram per pound, you're taking in PLENTY...if you're drug free.  If you're not growing off that much protein, then protein isn't the reason you're not growing...time to look elsewhere for the cause.



what whould be some of the additional areas to look at as you suggest in the above? I hear of a lot of weight lifters men and women complaining they are not seeing the results... they reference the diet, they reference the lifting rutine, they reference the supplements, but wtill in their mind no results are "forthcoming" generally speaking if you have a average healthy male say 6ft and at 190 pounds and he goes on a high protein intake diet working out 5 days a week..common program... if looking for rip and cut, what time frame are we talking about... I knwo the skin is going to get loose from the loss of body weight and fat, which will most likely result in a trip to the doc for Lypo or a tummy skin graph... but othere than natural skin srinkage..what time lines for actula visual results are you looking at? 6-8 months?
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2008, 04:49:35 PM »

In my research I was led to believe the body will only absorb 20 gms. of protien in a 2 1/2 to 3 hr period and any more is pasted and stored as fat. Is this correct?
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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2008, 05:13:52 PM »

In my research I was led to believe the body will only absorb 20 gms. of protien in a 2 1/2 to 3 hr period and any more is pasted and stored as fat. Is this correct?

Short answer, no.  Your body will adapt based on your metoblism and needs to how much it can absorb at once.  The BIG problem is, that's different for everyone and there's no definitive answer as to only X amount of protein will be absorbed in X amount of time.  Purely speculation.
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2008, 09:29:54 AM »

Thank you,,,,,,,

So basically the only way to tell if you ingesting to much is by the amount of body fat gained. as far a muscle, keep eating protein as long as growth is occurring.......

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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2008, 10:13:06 AM »


Too bad, this link is death. Got another one?
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Princess L
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« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2008, 12:14:56 PM »

Too bad, this link is death. Got another one?

Dang it!  Didn't know it died  Undecided

Try this: http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/8

also, a ton of other good articles (note: multiple pages of articles)
http://www.jissn.com/articles/browse.asp?date=&sort=&page=2
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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2008, 11:56:49 PM »

Dang it!  Didn't know it died  Undecided

Try this: http://www.jissn.com/content/4/1/8

also, a ton of other good articles (note: multiple pages of articles)
http://www.jissn.com/articles/browse.asp?date=&sort=&page=2

Interesting stuff, thanks! And everything seems to be free content, most of those journals let you pay first  Cheesy
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 05:30:43 PM »

anyone have problems with kidneys or too much creatinine in blood samples ?
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2008, 07:34:38 PM »

anyone have problems with kidneys or too much creatinine in blood samples ?

Go back to Doctor, tell them you supp protein, they'll run other test..... your fine
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2008, 05:20:05 PM »

anyone have problems with kidneys or too much creatinine in blood samples ?

This can actually be caused from creatine supplementation (and yes before someone comments I realize creatine and creatinine are different).
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suckmymuscle
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2008, 11:41:00 PM »

  Protein intake is irrelevant. Anti-catabolism is more important than anabolism.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2008, 11:58:24 PM »

  Protein intake is irrelevant. Anti-catabolism is more important than anabolism.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
This study would agree with you:

Comparison of protein intakes on strength, body composition and hormonal changes were examined in 23 experienced collegiate strength/power athletes participating in a 12-week resistance training program. Subjects were stratified into three groups depending upon their daily consumption of protein; below recommended levels (BL; 1.0 1.4 gkg-1day-1; n = Cool, recommended levels (RL; 1.6 1.8 gkg-1day-1; n = 7) and above recommended levels (AL; > 2.0 gkg-1day-1; n = Cool. Subjects were assessed for strength [one-repetition maximum (1-RM) bench press and squat] and body composition. Resting blood samples were analyzed for total testosterone, cortisol, growth hormone, and insulin-like growth factor. No differences were seen in energy intake (3,171 577 kcal) between the groups, and the energy intake for all groups were also below the recommended levels for strength/power athletes. No significant changes were seen in body mass, lean body mass or fat mass in any group. Significant improvements in 1-RM bench press and 1-RM squat were seen in all three groups, however no differences between the groups were observed. Subjects in AL experienced a 22% and 42% greater change in Δ 1-RM squat and Δ 1-RM bench press than subjects in RL, however these differences were not significant. No significant changes were seen in any of the resting hormonal concentrations. The results of this study do not provide support for protein intakes greater than recommended levels in collegiate strength/power athletes for body composition improvements, or alterations in resting hormonal concentrations.

Effect of Protein Intake on Strength, Body Composition and Endocrine Changes in Strength/Power Athletes
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006; 3(2): 1218.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2129168

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« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2008, 12:22:38 AM »

This study would agree with you:

Comparison of protein intakes on strength, body composition and hormonal changes were examined in 23 experienced collegiate strength/power athletes participating in a 12-week resistance training program. Subjects were stratified into three groups depending upon their daily consumption of protein; below recommended levels (BL; 1.0 1.4 gkg-1day-1; n = Cool, recommended levels (RL; 1.6 1.8 gkg-1day-1; n = 7) and above recommended levels (AL; > 2.0 gkg-1day-1; n = Cool. Subjects were assessed for strength [one-repetition maximum (1-RM) bench press and squat] and body composition. Resting blood samples were analyzed for total testosterone, cortisol, growth hormone, and insulin-like growth factor. No differences were seen in energy intake (3,171 577 kcal) between the groups, and the energy intake for all groups were also below the recommended levels for strength/power athletes. No significant changes were seen in body mass, lean body mass or fat mass in any group. Significant improvements in 1-RM bench press and 1-RM squat were seen in all three groups, however no differences between the groups were observed. Subjects in AL experienced a 22% and 42% greater change in Δ 1-RM squat and Δ 1-RM bench press than subjects in RL, however these differences were not significant. No significant changes were seen in any of the resting hormonal concentrations. The results of this study do not provide support for protein intakes greater than recommended levels in collegiate strength/power athletes for body composition improvements, or alterations in resting hormonal concentrations.

Effect of Protein Intake on Strength, Body Composition and Endocrine Changes in Strength/Power Athletes
J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006; 3(2): 1218.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2129168



dumbest conclusion ever - that study shows there is no need to take greater amounts of protein than 1-1.4g per kg - not the recomended 1.6-1.8g per kg.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2008, 11:45:26 PM »

This study would agree with you

  Actually, my claim has nothing to do with the study. Protein consumption is irrelevant because the body can only use so much. Force-feeding yourself tons of protein won't force extra muscle growth: it will make you fat. You don't get big by eating massive amounts of protein: you get big by eating an excess of calories which allows your body to use the protein to build muscle instead of burning it for fuel. The largest guys are those who eat lots of carbs and moderate amounts protein. The guys who eat tons of protein and little carbs are usually very lean and muscular but can't pack on the weight, because the protein is simply turned via gluconeogenesis into glucose to sustain the body rather than be used to build muscle. Anti-catabolism is more important than anabolism!

SUCKMYMUSCLE
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« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2008, 12:12:13 AM »

  Actually, my claim has nothing to do with the study. Protein consumption is irrelevant because the body can only use so much. Force-feeding yourself tons of protein won't force extra muscle growth: it will make you fat. You don't get big by eating massive amounts of protein: you get big by eating an excess of calories which allows your body to use the protein to build muscle instead of burning it for fuel. The largest guys are those who eat lots of carbs and moderate amounts protein. The guys who eat tons of protein and little carbs are usually very lean and muscular but can't pack on the weight, because the protein is simply turned via gluconeogenesis into glucose to sustain the body rather than be used to build muscle. Anti-catabolism is more important than anabolism!

SUCKMYMUSCLE
wow, this is a pretty good post

so 30/50/20 with 15-20% caloric excess would work well?

under the presence of plenty of hormones too of course

Thanks
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« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2008, 01:30:21 AM »

  Actually, my claim has nothing to do with the study. Protein consumption is irrelevant because the body can only use so much. Force-feeding yourself tons of protein won't force extra muscle growth: it will make you fat. You don't get big by eating massive amounts of protein: you get big by eating an excess of calories which allows your body to use the protein to build muscle instead of burning it for fuel. The largest guys are those who eat lots of carbs and moderate amounts protein. The guys who eat tons of protein and little carbs are usually very lean and muscular but can't pack on the weight, because the protein is simply turned via gluconeogenesis into glucose to sustain the body rather than be used to build muscle. Anti-catabolism is more important than anabolism!

SUCKMYMUSCLE

i read a study recently that reported all thats needed to produce maximum muscle protein synthesis is 40g a day  Shocked ( you can dowload and read the whole paper for free)

Human muscle protein synthesis is modulated by extracellular, not intramuscular amino acid availability: a dose-response study.Boh J, Low A, Wolfe RR, Rennie MJ.
Division of Metabolism, Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Shriners Burns Hospital, Galveston, TX 77550, USA.

To test the hypothesis that muscle protein synthesis (MPS) is regulated by the concentration of extracellular amino acids, we investigated the dose-response relationship between the rate of human MPS and the concentrations of blood and intramuscular amino acids. We increased blood mixed amino acid concentrations by up to 240 % above basal levels by infusion of mixed amino acids (Aminosyn 15, 44-261 mg kg-1 h-1) in 21 healthy subjects, (11 men 10 women, aged 29 +/- 2 years) and measured the rate of incorporation of D5-phenylalanine or D3-leucine into muscle protein and blood and intramuscular amino acid concentrations. The relationship between the fold increase in MPS and blood essential amino acid concentration ([EAA], mM) was hyperbolic and fitted the equation MPS = (2.68 x [EAA])/(1.51 + [EAA]) (P < 0.01). The pattern of stimulation of myofibrillar, sarcoplasmic and mitochondrial protein was similar. There was no clear relationship between the rate of MPS and the concentration of intramuscular EAAs; indeed, when MPS was increasing most rapidly, the concentration of intramuscular EAAs was below basal levels. We conclude that the rates of synthesis of all classes of muscle proteins are acutely regulated by the blood [EAA] over their normal diurnal range, but become saturated at high concentrations. We propose that the stimulation of protein synthesis depends on the sensing of the concentration of extracellular, rather than intramuscular EAAs.

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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 05:51:24 AM »

  Actually, my claim has nothing to do with the study. Protein consumption is irrelevant because the body can only use so much. Force-feeding yourself tons of protein won't force extra muscle growth: it will make you fat. You don't get big by eating massive amounts of protein: you get big by eating an excess of calories which allows your body to use the protein to build muscle instead of burning it for fuel. The largest guys are those who eat lots of carbs and moderate amounts protein.The guys who eat tons of protein and little carbs are usually very lean and muscular but can't pack on the weight, because the protein is simply turned via gluconeogenesis into glucose to sustain the body rather than be used to build muscle. Anti-catabolism is more important than anabolism!
SUCKMYMUSCLE


Ketosis would seem like the way to go...Its easier for me to eat high amounts of fat (good), rather than moderate/high amounts of low glycimic carbs...*LOL*...just guessing here...


GC


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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2009, 07:55:21 AM »

The bottom line should be that if you're taking in a gram per pound, you're taking in PLENTY...if you're drug free.  If you're not growing off that much protein, then protein isn't the reason you're not growing...time to look elsewhere for the cause.

I beg to differ. I can tell you from my own experience, especially when I was in college, that it took more than 1 gram/lb of bodyweight for me to put on size. And, I could barely afford weight-gainer and protein powder, MUCH LESS STEROIDS or any other drugs.

My protein intake, during a particular semester, that resulted in 21 lbs, was in the low-to-mid 300-gram range. I ended up going from 189 to 210 lbs. Considering that the weight gainer I was using (Mega Mass 2000) had PLENTY of carbs and I'd already been consuming lots of carbs for years, I can confidently say that increased protein was the difference.

I don't know why some people keep complaining about increasing their protein intake. It seems that they're looking for any excuse NOT to do what they probably need to do to see some growth: "I don't use steroids"; "you can only consume X grams of protein"; "the big-bad-supplement-company-muscle-magazine-conspiracy, etc."

If you need more protein, then it's time to eat/drink more to get the job done. People need to quit using the aforementioned excuses and get 'er done. And, keep in mind, that protein increase should be gradual. If you weigh 180 lbs, for example, don't try to jump from 180 grams to 300 grams instantly. Start at, say, 240-250 grams of protein and work from there.
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