Author Topic: And the surge is working how?  (Read 1936 times)

OzmO

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And the surge is working how?
« on: November 06, 2007, 08:15:15 AM »
'07 deadliest year for U.S. troops in Iraq

 BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Five U.S. soldiers were killed in Iraq on Monday, making 2007 the deadliest for the American military in the Iraq war.
art.troops.memorial.ap.j pg

U.S. soldiers honor two fallen comrades at a memorial in Mosul, Iraq, on Saturday.

The grim record came despite lower death rates in recent months, which were not enough to offset death tolls that topped 100 during three months in the spring.

The five were killed in two separate roadside bombings, according to Rear Adm. Gregory Smith, a military official who briefed reporters in the Iraqi capital of Baghdad on Tuesday.

Four of the soldiers were killed when a bomb exploded near their vehicle in northern Iraq's Tameem province; the other died in combat in Anbar province.

According to a CNN count of Pentagon figures, 854 U.S. service members have died so far in 2007. The next highest death toll was in 2004, when 849 were killed.

The total number of U.S. military deaths in Iraq stands at 3,857, including seven civilian contractors of the Defense Department.

The high number of deaths this year corresponds with the U.S. troop buildup in late summer called the "surge" and a crackdown on insurgents in and near Baghdad.

Monthly death tolls were highest in the first part of the year: 83 deaths in January, 81 in February and 81 in March. Numbers peaked in the next three months, with 104 deaths in April, 126 in May and 101 in June.

The numbers have dropped from that level since -- with 79 in July, 84 in August, 65 in September, 40 in October and 10 so far in November.
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Civilian deaths have also dropped in recent months, U.S. and Iraqi authorities say.

The Iraq war began in March of 2003 and in that year there were 486 U.S. military deaths.

In 2004, major offensives were responsible for many fatalities, including the massive operation in Falluja in November and fighting between U.S. troops and Shiite militants in Najaf.

The number of deaths in 2005 was 846 and in 2006 it was 822.

Smith also announced on Tuesday that the United States intends "in the near future" to release nine detained Iranians held in Iraq.

"These individuals have been assessed to have no continuing value" and don't pose a "further threat" to Iraqi security, he said. Two of them are from the "Irbil 5" detained in January. Irbil is the largest city in the Kurdish area of Iraq.

Meanwhile, the Kurdistan Regional Government on Tuesday confirmed to CNN that two Iranian consulates had been established in the region, offices created in the wake of the arrests in Irbil.

At the time of the arrests, Iran insisted the arrested officials were "diplomats" working in a diplomatic mission, while Iraq's Foreign Ministry and the U.S. military said it was a "liaison" office which did not have diplomatic status.

Also Tuesday, the U.S. military reported that U.S. and Iraqi troops found 22 corpses in Iraq's Lake Tharthar region.

The Iraqi Army and local security forces "are investigating the mass grave to determine the identities of the deceased and the causes of death for notification of their families," the military said.

Lake Tharthar is in both Anbar and Salaheddin provinces and northwest of Baghdad.

U.S. and Iraqi troops have been conducting an operation in the same region since Sunday to target al Qaeda in Iraq.

So far, they have found and destroyed two car bomb facilities and a number of weapons caches and detained 30 men.

The military also said that coalition troops on Tuesday killed eight people described as terrorists and detained 10 suspects in operations targeting al Qaeda and foreign militant networks in central and northern Iraq. E-mail to a friend E-mail to a friend



Fury

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2007, 08:20:13 AM »
About 5,000 families just moved back into their homes in one of the Baghdad slums as a result of the surge. They were run out because of all the violence with the Mehdi Army fighting AQI. Bombings are down, US troop deaths are down and less and less terrorist videos are popping up on the internet. Something's obviously working. They've started recycling more and more old videos online because they've got nothing to use.

Mad Nickels

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2007, 08:39:30 AM »
About 5,000 families just moved back into their homes in one of the Baghdad slums as a result of the surge.

I'd rather see 854 living American soldiers, and let those 5,000 families be homeless.

I don't think the tradeoff is worth it.   Do you?



US troop deaths are down

No offense Berzerk, but did you even read the article?

It's October, and already we have the highest YEAR of deaths?  They're UP!

Why would you say they're down when the US govt statistics say they are up?
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Fury

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2007, 08:49:52 AM »
I'd rather see 854 living American soldiers, and let those 5,000 families be homeless.

I don't think the tradeoff is worth it.   Do you?



No offense Berzerk, but did you even read the article?

It's October, and already we have the highest YEAR of deaths?  They're UP!

Why would you say they're down when the US govt statistics say they are up?

No offense, but did you know that they've been saying for months that the start of the surge would see a big increase in casualties? They've been dropping for the last 4 months and October was the lowest total in years. Go to liveleak or some of the other sites.

Beginning of this year saw new roadside bombing videos and other terrorist attacks being uploaded by the dozen daily. I haven't seen one that was new in weeks. They're recycling old ones because they've got nothing going for them right now. AQI is on the run and it looks like it finally might be turning around.

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2007, 08:57:28 AM »
No offense, but did you know that they've been saying for months that the start of the surge would see a big increase in casualties? They've been dropping for the last 4 months and October was the lowest total in years. Go to liveleak or some of the other sites.

I know they've dropped recently.  In the past, troop death level drops have coincided with what the troops were doing.  perhaps the planners in DC realized "Hey, we are on track for the deadliest year ever!" back in June, and moved men out of harm's way so the # would drop toward end of year.  This assumption is just as baseless as yours, that things are going according to plan - it's the same planners.  They use propaganda as all militaries do.


Beginning of this year saw new roadside bombing videos and other terrorist attacks being uploaded by the dozen daily. I haven't seen one that was new in weeks. They're recycling old ones because they've got nothing going for them right now. AQI is on the run and it looks like it finally might be turning around.

This could mean any number of things.  Could mean we put more resources into shutting down those websites, or a deal was reached with LiveLeak.  You do know that many of the major uploading sites have arangements set up for auto-deletion on certain topics?  I'm not saying it's the case here, but it's possible.  Just as possible as your scenario.

I guess I'm just frustrated by the war.  Our objective there seems to be "just be here" so that $ can be spent on military, and the big companies there can make a killing.  It's hard to worry much about 5000 families who got to return home.  We've lost nearly 4000 men there.  Boggles the mind.  I love my country and the soldiers - I wonder if they feel the same way - that the mission is just to be there?
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Decker

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2007, 09:04:00 AM »
No offense, but did you know that they've been saying for months that the start of the surge would see a big increase in casualties? They've been dropping for the last 4 months and October was the lowest total in years. Go to liveleak or some of the other sites.

Beginning of this year saw new roadside bombing videos and other terrorist attacks being uploaded by the dozen daily. I haven't seen one that was new in weeks. They're recycling old ones because they've got nothing going for them right now. AQI is on the run and it looks like it finally might be turning around.
The casualties are down for these reasons:
*The pentagon only counts those casualties where there's a presence of US troops
*1/5 of the Iraq population has left the country
*Casualty counts do not include some data b/c the pentagon changed the threshold for what constitutes a casualty

According to the latest GAO paper, casualties counted in the above manner are down from 5000 to 3000 for the last few months.  Personally, I don't believe a damn word from our government.  Hell, the Iraqi ministry claims that violence is down 70% across Iraq.  Oh boy.  I hope there are less casualties b/c that is a good thing.

But the purpose of the Surge was to create 'breathing room' for the Iraqi government to make progress.  On that measure, Mission is Failed.  The BenchMarks are still unmet and Iraq is still in a Civil War.

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2007, 09:14:54 AM »
But the purpose of the Surge was to create 'breathing room' for the Iraqi government to make progress.  On that measure, Mission is Failed.  The BenchMarks are still unmet and Iraq is still in a Civil War.

I didn't know that.  That's crazy.


I remember reading that if a US soldier is shot in Baghdad, and doesn't die until he crosses the border into Kuwait on a helicopter, they don't classify it as a death in Iraq.  Or, if he gets in a coma when shot, then dies the next day in Germany.  They don't consider that a death from the iraqi war.  Not right.
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Fury

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2007, 09:29:14 AM »
I know they've dropped recently.  In the past, troop death level drops have coincided with what the troops were doing.  perhaps the planners in DC realized "Hey, we are on track for the deadliest year ever!" back in June, and moved men out of harm's way so the # would drop toward end of year.  This assumption is just as baseless as yours, that things are going according to plan - it's the same planners.  They use propaganda as all militaries do.


This could mean any number of things.  Could mean we put more resources into shutting down those websites, or a deal was reached with LiveLeak.  You do know that many of the major uploading sites have arangements set up for auto-deletion on certain topics?  I'm not saying it's the case here, but it's possible.  Just as possible as your scenario.

I guess I'm just frustrated by the war.  Our objective there seems to be "just be here" so that $ can be spent on military, and the big companies there can make a killing.  It's hard to worry much about 5000 families who got to return home.  We've lost nearly 4000 men there.  Boggles the mind.  I love my country and the soldiers - I wonder if they feel the same way - that the mission is just to be there?

I understand but your belief and my belief are both hypothetical. None of us really know what's going on over there despite what the Getbig forum brigade that works out of their Florida trailers and elsewhere might think.

However, I doubt that the US has reached a deal with Liveleak. Those videos have been published unimpeded for over a year now with the e-jihadists that pull them off the extremist sites posting dozens by the day. They finally started dropping off right alongside talk of the surge actually working.

Let's not forget the 45 October deaths are the lowest in a year or two.

Not that it matters, every thing the media reports is a gigantic conspiracy and completely fabricated on here. They know from first hand experience on the Iraqi warfront!!!  ::)

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2007, 09:36:21 AM »
Not that it matters, every thing the media reports is a gigantic conspiracy and completely fabricated on here. They know from first hand experience on the Iraqi warfront!!!  ::)

you dont have to be a jerk.  I support Bush, but I know that he's been pushed into doing a lot of things - like telling lies and spreading propaganda - by people smarter and more experienced than he is.

Are you denying that they've told some whoppers since the war started, for whatever reason?
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Decker

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2007, 10:06:57 AM »
I didn't know that.  That's crazy.


I remember reading that if a US soldier is shot in Baghdad, and doesn't die until he crosses the border into Kuwait on a helicopter, they don't classify it as a death in Iraq.  Or, if he gets in a coma when shot, then dies the next day in Germany.  They don't consider that a death from the iraqi war.  Not right.
More troops should mean more stability and US deaths have gone down.  That is if you accept the way that the pentagon counts the deaths.

US deaths by month

Jul-07 78
Aug-07 84
Sep-07 65
Oct-07 38
Nov-07 11

In my ivory tower world, one death is too many considering the illegitimacy of the war itself.

Fury

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2007, 10:08:54 AM »
you dont have to be a jerk.  I support Bush, but I know that he's been pushed into doing a lot of things - like telling lies and spreading propaganda - by people smarter and more experienced than he is.

Are you denying that they've told some whoppers since the war started, for whatever reason?

I wasn't insulting you actually. I apologize. It seems that it has become the status quo on here that everything the media says is completely falsified because Getbiggers said so.

Not going to deny that they haven't told some whoppers since the war started, but I'm also not going to say that every single tidbit of information is false.

Mad Nickels

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2007, 10:24:02 AM »
I wasn't insulting you actually. I apologize. It seems that it has become the status quo on here that everything the media says is completely falsified because Getbiggers said so.

Not going to deny that they haven't told some whoppers since the war started, but I'm also not going to say that every single tidbit of information is false.

Cool.  I don't want to accuse them of lying, but I don't want to believe everything automaticlaly either.  They admit that they have put out false intel for war purposes (after the fact), so I would never be surprised if they're doing it now.

Either way, truth or lie, the war is a mess.
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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2007, 08:13:51 AM »
I can say that the media has made a mess of reporting this war, much like Vietnam. Vietnam is a good case study on how the media can influence warfare. We have testimonies from NVA Generals that support what the US military was saying about how the war was going. Yet we also have the historical record of what the media was saying at the same time, they are polar opposites. Since this is now what I do for Uncle Sam, it interestes me. The army said we were kicking the shit out of the NVA, the NVA says years later, yep u were. We were going to sue for peace had u launched an offensive after TET. Westmoreland wanted to invade the north, LBJ said no..all based on media accounts of TET, which swayed public opinion.

We now have the same thing in Iraq. Except, as Beserk Fury points out, its on UTUBE seconds after an IED goes off. Those posts have dropped. A) because the attacks are down, nothing to post and B)..the guys posting are frigggen dead or captured. We were caught way off guard about the terrorists ability to control and create media stories...way off guard. What they have done has ensured that short of me banging a sheep on my bosses' desk, i'll have a job for the next 20 years. We have to figure a way to combat this type of thing because it heavily influences the will of the American people. We don't communicate sucesses well.
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OzmO

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2007, 08:25:52 AM »
If this was a war fought under different circumstances i don't think the media would impact it the way it does here and in Vietnam.

Too many people feel the Iraq war was started on faulty intel and shouldn't of happened in the first place.   That's a big part of why the American people's will to fight this war is declining.  The media can't influence it as much as you might think unless there is the strong potential for that to begin with.

headhuntersix

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2007, 08:42:49 AM »
I must respectfully disagree with u and I'm sorry but ur completely wrong. First off I'm defining the media in this case as: Internet stories/Utube like videos'/Hollywood/Cable news - world wide/print media to include books. Unlike vietnam...we have more sources on information with which to impact the will of the American people. The North won the media war without a real active PR campaign directed at America. These guys in Iraq are very very very media savy. They are better in some ways then we are. We have not lost one major pitched battle...we are rebuilding the country, we have lost very few men as opposed to the enemy yet the average American perceives that we're losing to a bunch of ill trained rags with AK's instead of well trained insurgents who don't come at us head on. Its our fault that we don't lay out a better media relations plan..its our fault that we are'nt ahead of these guys. The media reports on sensational stories..building a well that supplies 2000 people is not as much fun as a suicide bomber killing 20. Its a media fact. The case for war was faulty, I will give u that, the foundation is weak, I'll give u that...but the media angle in this war will be studied and hopefully fixed before the next war. We should have studied Chechniya, there was a blue print.

I will say that we are learning. Case in point. I'll be taking part in an exercise in Japan before christmas. The senario has a country not named China, invading a country not named Japan, and seeing how we intergrate with the JDF. My piece will be to evaluate how the Public affairs cells combat the Red army PR and mis-information campaign. They will attempt to drive a wedge between us and the Japs...through the media. Friendly fire, destruction of shrines by US forces..etc etc. We are looking at waht AQ has attempted to do and what we know the Chinese would try and do...to cause problems for us back home.
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OzmO

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2007, 08:59:38 AM »
I must respectfully disagree with u and I'm sorry but ur completely wrong. First off I'm defining the media in this case as: Internet stories/Utube like videos'/Hollywood/Cable news - world wide/print media to include books. Unlike vietnam...we have more sources on information with which to impact the will of the American people. The North won the media war without a real active PR campaign directed at America. These guys in Iraq are very very very media savy. They are better in some ways then we are. We have not lost one major pitched battle...we are rebuilding the country, we have lost very few men as opposed to the enemy yet the average American perceives that we're losing to a bunch of ill trained rags with AK's instead of well trained insurgents who don't come at us head on. Its our fault that we don't lay out a better media relations plan..its our fault that we are'nt ahead of these guys. The media reports on sensational stories..building a well that supplies 2000 people is not as much fun as a suicide bomber killing 20. Its a media fact. The case for war was faulty, I will give u that, the foundation is weak, I'll give u that...but the media angle in this war will be studied and hopefully fixed before the next war. We should have studied Chechniya, there was a blue print.

I will say that we are learning. Case in point. I'll be taking part in an exercise in Japan before christmas. The senario has a country not named China, invading a country not named Japan, and seeing how we intergrate with the JDF. My piece will be to evaluate how the Public affairs cells combat the Red army PR and mis-information campaign. They will attempt to drive a wedge between us and the Japs...through the media. Friendly fire, destruction of shrines by US forces..etc etc. We are looking at waht AQ has attempted to do and what we know the Chinese would try and do...to cause problems for us back home.

I realize and acknowledge the differences with utube and internet and others.   But there are other differences to be taken into account such as the fact that we invaded and installed new leadership, mismanage the aftermath and incorrectly predicted the response of the different factions with in the population.  Combine that with the overwhelming costs, the higher price of gas, and the "no end in sight" reality and this is very different.  Also, WW2 lasted how long for us?   So this opposition without the media is very strong.


The situation created by BUSH and Company is giving the media plenty of fuel.   Had the war been handled differently there wouldn't be the results you are seeing now with the attitudes of the people and the media.

Livewire

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2007, 09:13:31 AM »
Media just follows trends like everyone else. 

Being pissed off at a bigger ' bad guy' sells papers and airtime.

Used to be they sold all the papers with Osama as the bad guy.  then he fell off the earth.
then saddam was the bad guy.  then he was hung.

Now they need someone to hate.  since the world hates bush and people are tired of the war, paint bush as the bad guy.  and it's not like bush/cheney haven't told enough lies to start wars they wanted, anyway.  If he was a saint in all this, the media would be targeting someone else.
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headhuntersix

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2007, 10:47:11 AM »
Ozmo..what u mention is a contributing factor...a big factor. I won't rehash.....but several points I left out. This isn't Liberal media vs Consrvative  media either. They both do the same thing. If it bleeds it leads. The no end in sight is another HUGE point, well done. Its a mistake to portray this as a long war..Bush and his team need to relook this. Nobody wants to think of it as that, it has major implications. Good point O!. But since I deal with media, I look at them as a tool that we (military) are not using effectively while AQ has done a better job. Livewire has captured the general media trend here...I love this subject.
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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2007, 10:52:08 AM »
I must respectfully disagree with u and I'm sorry but ur completely wrong. First off I'm defining the media in this case as: Internet stories/Utube like videos'/Hollywood/Cable news - world wide/print media to include books. Unlike vietnam...we have more sources on information with which to impact the will of the American people. The North won the media war without a real active PR campaign directed at America. These guys in Iraq are very very very media savy. They are better in some ways then we are. We have not lost one major pitched battle...we are rebuilding the country, we have lost very few men as opposed to the enemy yet the average American perceives that we're losing to a bunch of ill trained rags with AK's instead of well trained insurgents who don't come at us head on. Its our fault that we don't lay out a better media relations plan..its our fault that we are'nt ahead of these guys. The media reports on sensational stories..building a well that supplies 2000 people is not as much fun as a suicide bomber killing 20. Its a media fact. The case for war was faulty, I will give u that, the foundation is weak, I'll give u that...but the media angle in this war will be studied and hopefully fixed before the next war. We should have studied Chechniya, there was a blue print.

I will say that we are learning. Case in point. I'll be taking part in an exercise in Japan before christmas. The senario has a country not named China, invading a country not named Japan, and seeing how we intergrate with the JDF. My piece will be to evaluate how the Public affairs cells combat the Red army PR and mis-information campaign. They will attempt to drive a wedge between us and the Japs...through the media. Friendly fire, destruction of shrines by US forces..etc etc. We are looking at waht AQ has attempted to do and what we know the Chinese would try and do...to cause problems for us back home.

Good points.  The fact we haven't lost a single major battle, are rebuilding the country, they have had elections, etc. does seem to get lost.  Really dismantles the claim that we "lost" the war. 

And I’ve stated repeatedly my views on how the media’s war coverage is biased.  Won’t go on that rant again. 

Livewire

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Re: And the surge is working how?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2007, 11:02:53 AM »
Livewire has captured the general media trend here...I love this subject.

dude i love media studies.  i'll start a few threads on it here :)  Feel free to comment!
Nasser called Palumbo an acromegalion