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Tre
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« on: November 14, 2007, 05:58:37 PM »

During that time, Lee had quite a few chances to come back to the IFBB, which didn't go through.  I videotaped him about his sincerity of him coming back to the IFBB, which he said he did, but then said it wasnt true.  Steve Blechman offered him a deal, and the IFBB was cool with it, for him to come back into the IFBB come September 2007, but Lee didn't agree.  So yes, while he was suspended for a year, there were other factors. Once again, Lee may or may not be reinstated into the IFBB, but it didnt happen at the Olympia meeting. The next meeting, I think is at the Arnold? 

But there were others too, Rodney St. Cloub, I think also Valentine Jabes, one or two others. Lee is the most popular who chose to leave, but certainly not the only one.  If the IFBB acts differently on these guys, then it is a different issue. But for now, all have been treated the same.
 
Yes, let's all be all holy here, and cry for every little rule that has been broken.  Convictions, steroids - whoa. Wow.  If it was up to you, half of Congress would be out of office, half of the NFL, NBA, NHL would be out of players.  Get real. These guys don't have convictions for assault, or a violent crime.

But the ones who chose to compete in another federation while they were still members of the IFBB knew and were warned in advance about it. You do this, you will get that. Simple as that.  If I tell you and warn you in advance that if you choose the left path, you can't come back to the other path, you know in advance. Simple as that.

Ron, you're a father and a businessman.

From a moral standpoint, please explain to your readers why you feel a sanctioning body has the authority to limit an individual's income opportunities. 

Many of you have stated 'rules are rules', but not a single one of you has been able to justify it or to offer even a token rationale.

Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2007, 06:00:24 PM »

oooookkkayyyy..... looks around....

Anywasy Cheesy


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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2007, 06:04:24 PM »

I saw Lee over the weekend.

He's a cute little guy.
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 06:06:09 PM »

oooookkkayyyy..... looks around....

Anywasy Cheesy
FUCK YES STARK  Angry
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Tre
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 06:32:18 PM »

oooookkkayyyy..... looks around....

Anywasy Cheesy

Best. Reply. Ever.
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2007, 06:45:50 PM »

From a moral standpoint, please explain to your readers why you feel a sanctioning body has the authority to limit an individual's income opportunities.  



From a strictly moral standpoint, they don't have a leg to stand on.  They're not paying or employing these guys, yet they feel they have a right to control their lives 24/7/365. 

I can see only two situations where what the IFBB does would be morally legitimate:  either if they paid them a salary, in which case they would be an employer and have the right to set rules, including exclusivity, or alternatively perhaps if the rulemakers were freely elected in a democratic process by those the rules apply to (the active competing bodybuilders).  Otherwise, it's simply a case of illegitimate despots exercising unearned power for their own enrichment.
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2007, 06:49:51 PM »

I saw Lee over the weekend.

He's a cute little guy.

he was at my booth signing autographs you shoulda came and said hi... Grin
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2007, 06:55:34 PM »

Ron, you're a father and a businessman.

From a moral standpoint, please explain to your readers why you feel a sanctioning body has the authority to limit an individual's income opportunities. 

Many of you have stated 'rules are rules', but not a single one of you has been able to justify it or to offer even a token rationale.

Thanks in advance.


Easy answer....they don't.

The rationale is simple...you have opportunities within the organization that you wouldn't have elsewhere. They don't prohibit you from amking all the money you wish...as long as it's not COMPETING in a rival federation.

That being said...there is no real money to be made competing elsewhere, as many have tried to organize other BB federations...and failed.

There just isn't enough talent pool to go around, enough supplement companies willing to put out even more money to get to the same fan base, or enough fans to support them....
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2007, 06:57:26 PM »



There just isn't enough talent pool to go around, enough supplement companies willing to put out even more money to get to the same fan base, or enough fans to support them....

 Cry

so sad.  especially when the IFBB has such great management/representation.  people don't know what they're missing.
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2007, 06:57:55 PM »

he was at my booth signing autographs you shoulda came and said hi... Grin
What a fucking nightmare that deal was.
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2007, 07:00:53 PM »

What a fucking nightmare that deal was.

Worst run show ever...$400 to have my booth outside in the fucking dark...gee thanks...You should seen the flagstaff one the week before...oh boy... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2007, 07:01:47 PM »

Worst run show ever...$400 to have my booth outside in the fucking dark...gee thanks...You should seen the flagstaff one the week before...oh boy... Roll Eyes
hahahaha! I know man my friend Lenny had a booth and he was out in the sun all day till the power went out Grin
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2007, 07:04:13 PM »

Easy answer....they don't.

The rationale is simple...you have opportunities within the organization that you wouldn't have elsewhere. They don't prohibit you from amking all the money you wish...as long as it's not COMPETING in a rival federation.

That being said...there is no real money to be made competing elsewhere, as many have tried to organize other BB federations...and failed.

There just isn't enough talent pool to go around, enough supplement companies willing to put out even more money to get to the same fan base, or enough fans to support them....

Well how do you explain the PDI giving away more in their few shows than every IFBB except for 3 or 4.  And don't count the PDI out.  The NOC was cancelled this year.  Not because of money but because of health reason of Waynes.  Thats a fact.  If he gets his health back the NOC will be back next year with more prize money.  Unlike the Colorado Pro which was cancelled because of  NO money.  The fact is quite a few PDI pros made more in just two years than 90% of the IFBB have made in their careers. That is something you can't deny.  And Sami who hasn't yet competed in the IFBB has done pretty well with his prize money, personal appearances and spnsorship.
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2007, 07:21:49 PM »

Well how do you explain the PDI giving away more in their few shows than every IFBB except for 3 or 4. 


Easy...you can find a few suckers to pony up some money to sustain a few shows with the gift of gab and promises of grandeur...until the well runs dry, or they get smart, whichever comes first...you know, like the "Chicago Expo" from a few years ago, remember??


 And don't count the PDI out.  The NOC was cancelled this year.  Not because of money but because of health reason of Waynes.  Thats a fact. 

YEAH...LOL...You keep telling yourself that.


 If he gets his health back the NOC will be back next year with more prize money.  Unlike the Colorado Pro which was cancelled because of  NO money.  The fact is quite a few PDI pros made more in just two years than 90% of the IFBB have made in their careers. That is something you can't deny.  And Sami who hasn't yet competed in the IFBB has done pretty well with his prize money, personal appearances and spnsorship.

Quite a few? Who...Lee and Sami? Same % made money as in any IFBB show....the others got NOTHING. Same guys that lost money there would've lost money in the IFBB...........
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2007, 07:23:51 PM »



You sound bitter Bob
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2007, 12:46:54 AM »


I disagree.  I think Bob handled the question extremely well.
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2007, 12:55:42 AM »

I disagree.  I think Bob handled the question extremely well.
What are you doing online. I thought you and JC would be having another posedown or was last night enough? lol.
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2007, 11:26:47 AM »

The rationale is simple...you have opportunities within the organization that you wouldn't have elsewhere. They don't prohibit you from making all the money you wish...as long as it's not COMPETING in a rival federation.
...don't you mean that they have opportunities to make money in the IFBB that the IFBB PROHIBITS them from seeking elsewhere.

That being said...there is no real money to be made competing elsewhere, as many have tried to organize other BB federations...and failed.
...then why bother banning athletes who don't even win anything when they compete in the rival federations? For most IFBB athletes there is no money to be made competing as an IFBB pro... by your logic these also-ran athletes should be banned from competing by the WBG; NABBA; PDI etc because they DIDN'T make any money competing in the IFBB.

There just isn't enough talent pool to go around, enough supplement companies willing to put out even more money to get to the same fan base, or enough fans to support them....
...if the IFBB was an equitable; fair and transparent entity that lived up to its own standards then there wouldn't be scope for anyone to start up a rival federation. Instead bodybuilding is fragmenting into schmoe-run dictatorships run like mafia rackets...

The list of grievances is already beyond fixing:
-corruption at the amateur level
-chronic nepotism among the officials
-corrupt judging
-"gay for pay"... sometimes ignored; sometimes penalised
-the drug issue
-blatant profiteering by the sanctioning body
-shady promoters fleecing the athletes
-ludicrous expenses run up by officials

...bodybuilding needs a revolution. There are no new ideas... no new blood... just the same leeches bleeding the same delusional athletes for the past forty years.


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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2007, 10:23:09 AM »

...don't you mean that they have opportunities to make money in the IFBB that the IFBB PROHIBITS them from seeking elsewhere.
...then why bother banning athletes who don't even win anything when they compete in the rival federations? For most IFBB athletes there is no money to be made competing as an IFBB pro... by your logic these also-ran athletes should be banned from competing by the WBG; NABBA; PDI etc because they DIDN'T make any money competing in the IFBB.
...if the IFBB was an equitable; fair and transparent entity that lived up to its own standards then there wouldn't be scope for anyone to start up a rival federation. Instead bodybuilding is fragmenting into schmoe-run dictatorships run like mafia rackets...

The list of grievances is already beyond fixing:
-corruption at the amateur level
-chronic nepotism among the officials
-corrupt judging
-"gay for pay"... sometimes ignored; sometimes penalised
-the drug issue
-blatant profiteering by the sanctioning body
-shady promoters fleecing the athletes
-ludicrous expenses run up by officials

...bodybuilding needs a revolution. There are no new ideas... no new blood... just the same leeches bleeding the same delusional athletes for the past forty years.


The Luke

The very reason the IFBB has been the only show in town is simple...WEider was smart enough to get all the best guys in the world to compete in HIS federation...EXCLUSIVLY.

Once you get past "the best 25 BBers in the world"...there is little fan base or market to be had....quite simply put...there aint enough to sustain two federations...never has been, probably never will be.

As to your question of allowing athletes to compete for the other team...WHY WOULD THEY?  Busines 101 my friend.....

Would the Patriots allow Tom Brady to go and play for the Cowboys? Or play for the European league in the off season? NO. Granted, they pay him for his services, the IFBB doesn't have a payroll...so what you get in compensation is the opportunity to compete for purse and to sign supplement deals with companies that are affiliated with the IFBB....membership has it's priviledges....look no further than our good friend Lee Priest for a shining example....left the federation to seek greener grass, made a few sheckles competing, LOST more opportunities with endorsements, questposings, etc......PDI dries up....thanks for coming.

For some, it may not pay off....WHY? Because Pro BB in the IFBB isn't 4th grade T-ball where everyone gets a hit at the ball regardless of athletiic ability....the BEST will ultimately make more money, get more endorsements, sign biger deals, make more appearances, etc....

To think that the guys ranked 30-50th in the world could simply be competing in another federation AND making money is laughable at best.....

If the guys (the best ones) WERE allowed to compete elsewhere....the same guys would be winning, and the same guys who arent making money now...STILL wouldn't be making money there...!



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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2007, 02:35:33 PM »

Chick,

It's good of you to answer the fans as you do... but you're fighting a losing battle defending the IFBB and it's policies:

The very reason the IFBB has been the only show in town is simple...WEider was smart enough to get all the best guys in the world to compete in HIS federation...EXCLUSIVLY.
...not true.
Weider didn't pass out contracts in exchange for exclusivity as you infer in your comment, he simply blackballed anyone who competed in any other federation... he even blackballed a few guys just for guest posing at rival events. To this day you, Chick, have trouble getting active athletes to attend the athletes meetings as they are afraid of being blackballed and/or unfairly placed at upcoming competitions if they speak up (or are perceived to have spoken up)... and let's not even mention the "U" word (Athletes Union) as that would result in whoever said it AND anyone who heard it being banished from the IFBB forever.

The sad part of all this is that the IFBB got it's footing by offering transparent, fair and impartial judging in stark contrast to the behaviour of the AAU. Suddenly black athletes (such as Sergio Oliva) and openly gay athletes (Chris Dickerson etc) could win contests.... now that Weider has a monopoly similar to the AAU monopoly of the '50s the corruption is worse than it was then:

I enjoyed watching your victory at the Worlds Bob, but it was shameful that Rusty Jeffers was deliberately misplaced... and the fans are savvy enough to see how it is done: the first callout is either the three guys who placed 1st 2nd 3rd last year, or the guys who will place 1st 2nd 3rd this year... Rusty Jeffers never even got a comparison against you Bob, did he? That's something I'd like to see raised at an athletes meeting; how the comparisons can move a guy from 2nd (maybe 3rd) down to 8th.

Isn't it ironic if the IFBB is now penalising athletes based on their "lifestyle choices"?

Would we be having this discussion if Bob Hoffman's AAU simply used their monopoly to blackball athletes
that competed in the IFBB?

Once you get past "the best 25 BBers in the world"...there is little fan base or market to be had....quite simply put...there aint enough to sustain two federations...never has been, probably never will be.

As to your question of allowing athletes to compete for the other team...WHY WOULD THEY?  Busines 101 my friend.....

...that's simply facetious.
It's less "Business 101" more "Exploitation 101".

If there isn't enough market to support two federations why do the IFBB go out of their way to crush any and all rival federations... when the WBF started up all the athletes that defected got good salaries out of it, but more importantly, the athletes that stayed with the IFBB all got signed up to exclusive contracts that payed actual money: not the opportunity to compete in fixed contests with guys who placed top three last year and will place top three no matter what this year.

Open markets are better for workers, monopolies are bad for workers and workers rights... the sole purpose of a monopoly is to stifle competition and abuse/exploit workers/customers... that's Economics 101.


Would the Patriots allow Tom Brady to go and play for the Cowboys? Or play for the European league in the off season? NO. Granted, they pay him for his services, the IFBB doesn't have a payroll...so what you get in compensation is the opportunity to compete for purse and to sign supplement deals with companies that are affiliated with the IFBB....membership has it's priviledges....look no further than our good friend Lee Priest for a shining example....left the federation to seek greener grass, made a few sheckles competing, LOST more opportunities with endorsements, questposings, etc......PDI dries up....thanks for coming.

...Do the Patriots forbid all the guys who tried out for the team and didn't make the cut from ever trying out for another team? If I go for an open tryout with the Patriots; don't get picked (like an also ran IFBB'er who makes no money) then tryout for the Cowboys and get picked, am I blackballed from professional football and told to start my own federation?

For the record, Lee won more prizemoney competing in the PDI than he would have won competing in the IFBB... we both know that the IFBB brought pressure to bare on publishers/supplement companies/sponsors etc in order to prevent Lee earning money from contracts and guest posings... the fans know this too, so your argument is the defense of a scoundrel. 


For some, it may not pay off....WHY? Because Pro BB in the IFBB isn't 4th grade T-ball where everyone gets a hit at the ball regardless of athletiic ability....the BEST will ultimately make more money, get more endorsements, sign biger deals, make more appearances, etc....

...that's why the fans were so happy with the Olympia placings this year: the guys were placed solely on merit... sponsorship dollars had nothing to do with it.


To think that the guys ranked 30-50th in the world could simply be competing in another federation AND making money is laughable at best.....

If the guys (the best ones) WERE allowed to compete elsewhere....the same guys would be winning, and the same guys who arent making money now...STILL wouldn't be making money there...!

...during the late seventies and early eighties there were loads of federations: NABBA; WBG etc etc... blackballing athletes was the only thing that allowed the IFBB to win out over its rivals.

Let's consider the WBF situation...
-the top athletes who defected to the WBF all made good money out of it (much better than they would have made in the IFBB)
-the also-ran athletes who defected to the WBF made some money (they wouldn't have made any with the IFBB)
-the top guys who stayed loyal to the IFBB were all signed up to exclusive contracts (the IFBB didn't lower its prizemoney, so these guys all got a salary AND the chance to move up a few spots in the prizemoney when they competed)
-the also-rans who stayed loyal to the IFBB... well some of them actually were signed up to exclusive contracts just for fear that they might also defect to the WBF, and some of them even placed in the money a couple of times

...the only thing that suffered was the IFBB profit margin (which is already tantamount to profiteering; just ask anyone who ever had to pay an IFBB sanctioning fee AND the ludicrous expenses of the officials).

The athletes are better off with lots of federations... so are the fans (more smaller shows become viable for smaller promoters and provide more guest posing opportunities for the top athletes, and title unification contests become big business).

The only ones who lose out are AMI/Weider... their profit margin can easily allow for other federations and they know it, if margins were really tight they wouldn't even bother attempting to blackball rival federations as they would know it wasn't financially feasible.

Didn't Weider make $350 million off the sale of the organization?


It's all so short-sighted... if I owned AMI/Weider, I'd forcibly split the IFBB Pro league into two federations (maybe even a third natural division)... it just makes evolutionary sense.


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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2007, 07:58:15 PM »

Chick,

It's good of you to answer the fans as you do... but you're fighting a losing battle defending the IFBB and it's policies:
...not true.
Weider didn't pass out contracts in exchange for exclusivity as you infer in your comment, he simply blackballed anyone who competed in any other federation... he even blackballed a few guys just for guest posing at rival events. To this day you, Chick, have trouble getting active athletes to attend the athletes meetings as they are afraid of being blackballed and/or unfairly placed at upcoming competitions if they speak up (or are perceived to have spoken up)... and let's not even mention the "U" word (Athletes Union) as that would result in whoever said it AND anyone who heard it being banished from the IFBB forever.


Actually...you're wrong. That is EXACTLY how Weider started the whole biz...offering contracts for exclusivity of photo's, etc.....read some of the early articles from Arnold or any of the top pro's of that time period...


The sad part of all this is that the IFBB got it's footing by offering transparent, fair and impartial judging in stark contrast to the behaviour of the AAU. Suddenly black athletes (such as Sergio Oliva) and openly gay athletes (Chris Dickerson etc) could win contests.... now that Weider has a monopoly similar to the AAU monopoly of the '50s the corruption is worse than it was then:

I enjoyed watching your victory at the Worlds Bob, but it was shameful that Rusty Jeffers was deliberately misplaced... and the fans are savvy enough to see how it is done: the first callout is either the three guys who placed 1st 2nd 3rd last year, or the guys who will place 1st 2nd 3rd this year... Rusty Jeffers never even got a comparison against you Bob, did he? That's something I'd like to see raised at an athletes meeting; how the comparisons can move a guy from 2nd (maybe 3rd) down to 8th.

Please...if they wanted to keep Rusty down for any reason, they simply would have never allowed him to turn pro in the first place.

He was placed low because he was soft...

Personally, I would have had him higher...as I always think shape, etc. should be rewarded over pure conditioning...but I wasn't judging.



Isn't it ironic if the IFBB is now penalising athletes based on their "lifestyle choices"?

Yeah...very...Lets see...St Cloud qualified 2X for the Olympia, Kai Greene wins a show, qualifies....stupid comment.


Would we be having this discussion if Bob Hoffman's AAU simply used their monopoly to blackball athletes
that competed in the IFBB?

...that's simply facetious.
It's less "Business 101" more "Exploitation 101".

If there isn't enough market to support two federations why do the IFBB go out of their way to crush any and all rival federations... when the WBF started up all the athletes that defected got good salaries out of it, but more importantly, the athletes that stayed with the IFBB all got signed up to exclusive contracts that payed actual money: not the opportunity to compete in fixed contests with guys who placed top three last year and will place top three no matter what this year.

They don't go out of their way...the athletes could care less about competing in some other organization against guys that arent the best. If they athletes really gave a shit, or thought there was some big pot of gold sitting there waiting for them....they would leave.

You mentioned the WBF..that's EXACTLY what they did. If another federation came along with similiar promise and money...bet your ass there would be athletes taking the opportunity.



Open markets are better for workers, monopolies are bad for workers and workers rights... the sole purpose of a monopoly is to stifle competition and abuse/exploit workers/customers... that's Economics 101.

No quarrel there..Ive been saying that for years...in an ideal world we would have 4-5 "IFBB's" out there....we don't...for the very reasons I outlined.


...Do the Patriots forbid all the guys who tried out for the team and didn't make the cut from ever trying out for another team? If I go for an open tryout with the Patriots; don't get picked (like an also ran IFBB'er who makes no money) then tryout for the Cowboys and get picked, am I blackballed from professional football and told to start my own federation?

No...and the IFBB doesn't either.....athletes are free to go wherever they wish If they don't make it to the pro's....once you're IN the federation, you agree to abide by the rules....Just like if you make the team for the Patriots, you cant ALSO play for the Cowboys.


For the record, Lee won more prizemoney competing in the PDI than he would have won competing in the IFBB... we both know that the IFBB brought pressure to bare on publishers/supplement companies/sponsors etc in order to prevent Lee earning money from contracts and guest posings... the fans know this too, so your argument is the defense of a scoundrel. 

Bullshit, Lee would have MUCH more money in the IFBB, especially in the Olympia. Where he fucked up was in the collateral damage he didn't foresee. The NPC is the amateur org for the IFBB...no IFBB= no NPC appearances. Also, supplement companies are very much vested in with the IFBB/ AMI/ etc....Lee was of minimal use to them not being associated.... there was no need for any "pressure"....The supp companies have too much money invested to take any chances signing a guy who's visabilty is greatly reduced, doesn't compete in the states, and might not be allowed in the venues to work...BAD RISK.

...that's why the fans were so happy with the Olympia placings this year: the guys were placed solely on merit... sponsorship dollars had nothing to do with it.


...during the late seventies and early eighties there were loads of federations: NABBA; WBG etc etc... blackballing athletes was the only thing that allowed the IFBB to win out over its rivals.

You're right...there were many other orgs...all LOSING money with little to no interest from the fans to support...


Let's consider the WBF situation...
-the top athletes who defected to the WBF all made good money out of it (much better than they would have made in the IFBB)
-the also-ran athletes who defected to the WBF made some money (they wouldn't have made any with the IFBB)
-the top guys who stayed loyal to the IFBB were all signed up to exclusive contracts (the IFBB didn't lower its prizemoney, so these guys all got a salary AND the chance to move up a few spots in the prizemoney when they competed)
-the also-rans who stayed loyal to the IFBB... well some of them actually were signed up to exclusive contracts just for fear that they might also defect to the WBF, and some of them even placed in the money a couple of times

...the only thing that suffered was the IFBB profit margin (which is already tantamount to profiteering; just ask anyone who ever had to pay an IFBB sanctioning fee AND the ludicrous expenses of the officials).

The athletes are better off with lots of federations... so are the fans (more smaller shows become viable for smaller promoters and provide more guest posing opportunities for the top athletes, and title unification contests become big business).


Once again...we agree. Problem is, the fans want to see the BEST, and are only willing to PAY to see the BEST.....Even the smaller IFBB shows have a tough time making ends meet, let alone some other federation with amateurs being passed off as "pro's"....past the top 20-25...no one really cares.


The only ones who lose out are AMI/Weider... their profit margin can easily allow for other federations and they know it, if margins were really tight they wouldn't even bother attempting to blackball rival federations as they would know it wasn't financially feasible.

Didn't Weider make $350 million off the sale of the organization?


No...they made it off the sale of the PULICATIONS. They still own the federation


It's all so short-sighted... if I owned AMI/Weider, I'd forcibly split the IFBB Pro league into two federations (maybe even a third natural division)... it just makes evolutionary sense.

So would I...much like McMahon has the RAW and Smackdown and ECW, despite all being owned by the same company....already thought of.

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