Author Topic: The dinosaurs  (Read 2947 times)

BayGBM

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The dinosaurs
« on: November 21, 2007, 06:35:39 AM »
Some people, particularly religious conservatives in the United States, dismiss the theories surrounding the existence of dinosaurs and their extinction.  They do not accept the discovery of fossilized bones as proof these animals once existed or even the practice of putting these bones back together to create models of what these animals once looked like.  In particular, they reject the scientific assertions that bones/rocks can be dated from hundreds of millions of years ago.

Do you believe dinosaurs ever existed?  Do you believe the earth is hundreds of millions of years old? Or that the universe is tens of billions of years old?  Do you see these timelines as inconsistent with the faith you were raised with?

BayGBM

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2007, 06:38:10 AM »
Scientists recently found the fossilized remains of what they say is an Enormous Sea Scorpion.

LONDON -- This was a bug you couldn't swat and definitely couldn't step on. British scientists have stumbled across a fossilized claw, part of an ancient sea scorpion, that is of such large proportion it would make the entire creature the biggest bug ever.

How big? Bigger than you, and at 8 feet long as big as some Smart cars.

The discovery in 390-million-year-old rocks suggests that spiders, insects, crabs and similar creatures were far larger in the past than previously thought, said Simon Braddy, a University of Bristol paleontologist and one of the study's three authors.

"This is an amazing discovery," he said Tuesday.

"We have known for some time that the fossil record yields monster millipedes, super-sized scorpions, colossal cockroaches, and jumbo dragonflies. But we never realized until now just how big some of these ancient creepy-crawlies were," he said.

The research found a type of sea scorpion that was almost half a yard longer than previous estimates and the largest one ever to have evolved.

The study, published online Tuesday in the Royal Society's journal Biology Letters, means that before this sea scorpion became extinct it was much longer than today's average man is tall.

Prof. Jeorg W. Schneider, a paleontologist at Freiberg Mining Academy in southeastern Germany, said the study provides valuable new information about "the last of the giant scorpions."

Schneider, who was not involved in the study, said these scorpions "were dominant for millions of years because they didn't have natural enemies. Eventually they were wiped out by large fish with jaws and teeth."

Braddy's partner paleontologist Markus Poschmann found the claw fossil several years ago in a quarry near Prum, Germany, that probably had once been an ancient estuary or swamp.

"I was loosening pieces of rock with a hammer and chisel when I suddenly realized there was a dark patch of organic matter on a freshly removed slab. After some cleaning I could identify this as a small part of a large claw," said Poschmann, another author of the study.

"Although I did not know if it was more complete or not, I decided to try and get it out. The pieces had to be cleaned separately, dried, and then glued back together. It was then put into a white plaster jacket to stabilize it," he said.

Eurypterids, or ancient sea scorpions, are believed to be the extinct aquatic ancestors of today's scorpions and possibly all arachnids, a class of joint-legged, invertebrate animals, including spiders, scorpions, mites and ticks.

Braddy said the fossil was from a Jaekelopterus Rhenaniae, a kind of scorpion that lived only in Germany for about 10 million years, about 400 million years ago.

He said some geologists believe that gigantic sea scorpions evolved due to higher levels of oxygen in the atmosphere in the past. Others suspect they evolved in an "arms race" alongside their likely prey, fish that had armor on their outer bodies.

Braddy said the sea scorpions also were cannibals that fought and ate one other, so it helped to be as big as they could be.

"The competition between this scorpion and its prey was probably like a nuclear standoff, an effort to have the biggest weapon," he said. "Hundreds of millions of years ago, these sea scorpions had the upper hand over vertebrates _ backboned animals like ourselves."

That competition ended long ago.

But the next time you swat a fly, or squish a spider at home, Braddy said, try to "think about the insects that lived long ago. You wouldn't want to swat one of those."

loco

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2007, 07:18:22 AM »
Some people, particularly religious conservatives in the United States, dismiss the theories surrounding the existence of dinosaurs and their extinction.  They do not accept the discovery of fossilized bones as proof these animals once existed

BayGBM,
Are you sure about that?  The most conservative creationists I know believe in dinosaurs, and they do accept their fossilized bones as evidence that they once existed.  They may not believe that they are millions of years old, but that's a different story.  See for example the Creation Museum in KY:

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

And see Answers in Genesis:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp

They also view ancient dragon legends and myth as possible evidence that dinosaurs once existed because those date back way before dinosaur fossils were first discovered, yet ancient dragon descriptions are very similar to some dinosaurs we now know once existed.

columbusdude82

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2007, 07:27:52 AM »
BayGBM, you godless swine!!! Don't you know that the book of Genesis talks about dinosaurs? It says so right there, that "giants walked the earth."

If you keep reading about dinosaurs and all that "science" and "reason" shit that questions the authority of the Word, you will end up being inhabited by the devil and roasting for all eternity in the pits of hell because you don't have Jesus!!!

loco

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2007, 07:37:02 AM »
A very interesting discovery:

"The Wollemi Pine was “rediscovered” by David Noble, a NSW National Park and Wildlife Officer, in 1994 in Sydney’s Blue Mountains. Biologists have described this as akin to running across a live dinosaur during a walk in the bush. Previously, it was known only from the fossil records, dating back at least 90 million years."

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/05/wollemi_pinesth.php

So this tree which was previously believed to have been extinct for millions of years was just recently found alive and well in a park in Australia...things that make you go Hmm...    ;D

Butterbean

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2007, 10:53:52 AM »
Some people, particularly religious conservatives in the United States, dismiss the theories surrounding the existence of dinosaurs and their extinction.  They do not accept the discovery of fossilized bones as proof these animals once existed or even the practice of putting these bones back together to create models of what these animals once looked like.  In particular, they reject the scientific assertions that bones/rocks can be dated from hundreds of millions of years ago.

Do you believe dinosaurs ever existed?  Do you believe the earth is hundreds of millions of years old? Or that the universe is tens of billions of years old?  Do you see these timelines as inconsistent with the faith you were raised with?


I don't think I know any people that don't believe dinosaurs existed....and I know a lot of "religious conservatives."
R

ATHEIST

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2007, 01:21:47 PM »
I don't think I know any people that don't believe dinosaurs existed....and I know a lot of "religious conservatives."

 So how would you explain the disagreement in time in relation to your religion? do Christians disregard anything based on carbon dating?

BayGBM

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2007, 02:15:30 PM »
So how would you explain the disagreement in time in relation to your religion? do Christians disregard anything based on carbon dating?

Over many years, I have heard religious people reject the idea that the earth is more than, say, 5000 years old.

ATHEIST

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2007, 02:50:06 PM »


  Ive never heard a decent explanation for that question.
 Everything including forensics uses carbon dating, its excepted world wide. yes there have been a very few instances where carbon dating was found to be incorrect, however its safe to conclude that its still a verifiable method of dating.
 if the world is only roughly 6000 years old then climate of the planet fluctuates more rapidly then we think, also then it brings up many more questions for Christianity.

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2007, 02:54:44 PM »
BayGBM, you godless swine!!! Don't you know that the book of Genesis talks about dinosaurs? It says so right there, that "giants walked the earth."

If you keep reading about dinosaurs and all that "science" and "reason" shit that questions the authority of the Word, you will end up being inhabited by the devil and roasting for all eternity in the pits of hell because you don't have Jesus!!!
exactly!!!! dinosaurs are a HOAX they were nothing but the 'leviathans' and 'giants' spoken of in teh great ironclad WORD OF GOD BIBLE-which has never once been edited or revised for political purposes ever in history-and there are still some alive today!! what do you think the loch ness monster is? A DINOSAUR!!! the great st george actually killed some of these beasts himself.

gcb

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2007, 05:41:13 PM »
A very interesting discovery:

"The Wollemi Pine was “rediscovered” by David Noble, a NSW National Park and Wildlife Officer, in 1994 in Sydney’s Blue Mountains. Biologists have described this as akin to running across a live dinosaur during a walk in the bush. Previously, it was known only from the fossil records, dating back at least 90 million years."

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/05/wollemi_pinesth.php

So this tree which was previously believed to have been extinct for millions of years was just recently found alive and well in a park in Australia...things that make you go Hmm...    ;D

Australia is very sparsely populated and it is no surprise that this pine was not discovered before. And it wasn't just some park - I think it was a quite remote area in the blue mountains.

This also in no way invalidates fossil age determination techniques.

Deicide

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2007, 05:45:29 PM »
I don't think I know any people that don't believe dinosaurs existed....and I know a lot of "religious conservatives."

Yes, you seem to be one of them.

No, the issue is that people like you believe that there were dinosaurs roaming around the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve....fucking embarassing.
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Deicide

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2007, 05:47:34 PM »
Carbon Dating is essentially based on the same physics that led to the successful creation of the A-bomb. If the procedure didn't work, neither would our nuclear weapons.
I hate the State.

Butterbean

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2007, 09:08:40 AM »
So how would you explain the disagreement in time in relation to your religion? do Christians disregard anything based on carbon dating?

I don't know if all Christians disregard anything based on carbon dating, but I think that some people believe it can be inaccurate if they think it's based on unprovable assumptions.


"Although this technique looks good at first, carbon-14 dating rests on two simple assumptions. They are, obviously, assuming the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere has always been constant, and its rate of decay has always been constant. Neither of these assumptions is provable or reasonable.

An illustration may help: Imagine you found a candle burning in a room, and you wanted to determine how long it was burning before you found it. You could measure the present height of the candle (say, seven inches) and the rate of burn (say, an inch per hour). In order to find the length of time since the candle was lit we would be forced to make some assumptions. We would, obviously, have to assume that the candle has always burned at the same rate, and assumes an initial height of the candle.

The answer changes based on the assumptions. Similarly, scientists do not know that the carbon-14 decay rate has been constant. They do not know that the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere is constant. Present testing shows the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere has been increasing since it was first measured in the 1950's. This may be tied in to the declining strength of the magnetic field." (from drdino.com)
R

Deicide

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2007, 08:07:25 PM »
I don't know if all Christians disregard anything based on carbon dating, but I think that some people believe it can be inaccurate if they think it's based on unprovable assumptions.


"Although this technique looks good at first, carbon-14 dating rests on two simple assumptions. They are, obviously, assuming the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere has always been constant, and its rate of decay has always been constant. Neither of these assumptions is provable or reasonable.

An illustration may help: Imagine you found a candle burning in a room, and you wanted to determine how long it was burning before you found it. You could measure the present height of the candle (say, seven inches) and the rate of burn (say, an inch per hour). In order to find the length of time since the candle was lit we would be forced to make some assumptions. We would, obviously, have to assume that the candle has always burned at the same rate, and assumes an initial height of the candle.

The answer changes based on the assumptions. Similarly, scientists do not know that the carbon-14 decay rate has been constant. They do not know that the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere is constant. Present testing shows the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere has been increasing since it was first measured in the 1950's. This may be tied in to the declining strength of the magnetic field." (from drdino.com)

Dr. Dino, a discredited fraud and convicted criminal...good stuff.... :D
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JOHN MATRIX

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2007, 10:00:13 PM »
dinosaurs are big and cool animalsmy favorite is diplodocus

gcb

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2007, 10:44:05 PM »
I don't know if all Christians disregard anything based on carbon dating, but I think that some people believe it can be inaccurate if they think it's based on unprovable assumptions.


"Although this technique looks good at first, carbon-14 dating rests on two simple assumptions. They are, obviously, assuming the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere has always been constant, and its rate of decay has always been constant. Neither of these assumptions is provable or reasonable.

An illustration may help: Imagine you found a candle burning in a room, and you wanted to determine how long it was burning before you found it. You could measure the present height of the candle (say, seven inches) and the rate of burn (say, an inch per hour). In order to find the length of time since the candle was lit we would be forced to make some assumptions. We would, obviously, have to assume that the candle has always burned at the same rate, and assumes an initial height of the candle.

The answer changes based on the assumptions. Similarly, scientists do not know that the carbon-14 decay rate has been constant. They do not know that the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere is constant. Present testing shows the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere has been increasing since it was first measured in the 1950's. This may be tied in to the declining strength of the magnetic field." (from drdino.com)

Atomic theory predicts that the Carbon decay rate would be constant. Remember these are the same theories that are used to build the worlds most accurate time pieces.

Butterbean

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2007, 08:15:57 AM »
Dr. Dino, a discredited fraud and convicted criminal...good stuff.... :D

So are you saying the assumptions don't exist?



Atomic theory predicts that the Carbon decay rate would be constant. Remember these are the same theories that are used to build the worlds most accurate time pieces.

gcb, do you have a site I could read re: this?  I've looked at a couple and haven't found the info on the prediction re: the Carbon decay rate.  Thanks!
R

loco

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Re: The dinosaurs
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2007, 08:47:13 AM »