Why is insulin so effective in adding muscle mass?

[pellius]

As I understand it, insulin shuttles nutrients into the cells. So, depending on insulin sensitivity, if you eat x amount of carbs your pancreas produces y amount of insulin. And if you eat x + 10x of carbs you will produce y + 10y of insulin. So, assuming you're healthy, your body will always produce sufficient amounts of insulin to process the food that you eat. The more food you eat the more insulin you produce. So how does adding addition insulin have any effect except perhaps suppress your own production? I mean, if you eat x amount of carbs why would having 100x amount of insulin in your system have any anabolic effect?

[mass243]

heh.

Nobody seems to know....everybody is always yelling that insulin did that and insulin that - but nobody seems to know why insulin would give a shit... Stop acting like fucking doctors if you don't know a shit about anything

[Van_Bilderass]

heh.

Nobody seems to know....everybody is always yelling that insulin did that and insulin that - but nobody seems to know why insulin would give a shit... Stop acting like fucking doctors if you don't know a shit about anything

True, why it seems to work for some is unknown, especially at the low dosage ranges.

[pellius]

heh.

Nobody seems to know....everybody is always yelling that insulin did that and insulin that - but nobody seems to know why insulin would give a shit... Stop acting like fucking doctors if you don't know a shit about anything

That's blasphemy! Gh15 knows. He knows all. Perhaps I will PM him.

[BEAST 8692]

milos apprently is the guru in it's use for anabolic/anti-catabolic purposes so you may wish to pm him.

trying to stimulate it naturally won't make much of a difference, but if you're thinking about using it for bbing purposes, you'd be well advised to get the best advice on it otherwise you'll probably end up very fat or possibly dead.

[pellius]

milos apprently is the guru in it's use for anabolic/anti-catabolic purposes so you may wish to pm him.

trying to stimulate it naturally won't make much of a difference, but if you're thinking about using it for bbing purposes, you'd be well advised to get the best advice on it otherwise you'll probably end up very fat or possibly dead.

I thought Milos was persona non grata on this board. Plus, I'm not sure if he'd be as honest as gh15. And don't worry about me with insulin. I experimented (unsuccessfully) a while back. When I got my slin in the mail it was warm since I live in a hot climate. I wasn't sure if it still was good so I pinned myself with 5ius and see what would happen. After breaking out in a cold sweat (my whole body was dripping) I managed to down 16 ounces of apple juice that I dumped a half a cup of sugar in before I would pass out. I started to recover within minutes. So I figure everything was good. So you see, I know my way around slin and a 29 gauge needle. I got it all under control.
All under controll.

[BEAST 8692]

I thought Milos was persona non grata on this board. Plus, I'm not sure if he'd be as honest as gh15. And don't worry about me with insulin. I experimented (unsuccessfully) a while back. When I got my slin in the mail it was warm since I live in a hot climate. I wasn't sure if it still was good so I pinned myself with 5ius and see what would happen. After breaking out in a cold sweat (my whole body was dripping) I managed to down 16 ounces of apple juice that I dumped a half a cup of sugar in before I would pass out. I started to recover within minutes. So I figure everything was good. So you see, I know my way around slin and a 29 gauge needle. I got it all under control.
All under controll.

lol

yes, that is one of the things i've seen. lucky you got the sugar in before you passed out.

re Milos: he treats this board with contempt most of the time. he only come here when he's trying to sell something, whoring promoting one of his bbers or his training methods.

having said that, yes he most definitely knows a lot about pharmaceutical insulin as a ped. if for no other reason than the fact that he has used and been around users for this purpose for a long time. essentially, he has performed many experiements with himself and other bbers and he has witnessesd and listened first hand. he is his own laboratory with him and the other bbers the rats so he has had direct feedback every time. imagine if you could do an experiment using a lab rat and that rat could tell you in plain english what exactly was occurring or, better yet, you're the rat.

the exact same situation exists and has existed for many years about anabolic steroids. scientists would tell you they don't work or, even if they do, you should use about 100mg of a fortnight, etc. the bbers (lab rats) themseves will tell you this is bs because they have done the experiements over and over and no what works best through trial and error.

the big problem with these drugs is that there is simply very little research done that has not been destroyed ie there was significant case studies done by communist east germany, russia and other soviet countries, but most of that has been destroyed or has become invalid ie some drugs don't exist anymore with the same components and reseasrch hasn't been update ie empiracle data on long term effects on athletes and variances between receptor uptake etc.

so, in essence, for the purposes of bbing only (as opposed to diabetes) Milos has somewhat of a market here. only issue for him is legality, otherwise he would be advertising the stuff BIG TIME. instead, he comes out with utter bullshit ie kns sugar products designed to boost insulin naturally and instigate anabolism. he knows very well that this bs otherwise 1. he and other bbers would never need to use illegal prescription insulin 2. america would have the leanest and most muscularly massive inhabitants in the world if this were true 3. Milos would be a billionaire 4. diabetes sufferers would rejoice (no more injections) 5. soft drinks would become a health tonic and really could make you jump higher than Michael Jordan .

[Van_Bilderass]

instead, he comes out with utter bullshit ie kns sugar products designed to boost insulin naturally and instigate anabolism. he knows very well that this bs otherwise 1. he and other bbers would never need to use illegal prescription insulin 2. america would have the leanest and most muscularly massive inhabitants in the world if this were true 3. Milos would be a billionaire 4. diabetes sufferers would rejoice (no more injections) 5. soft drinks would become a health tonic and really could make you jump higher than Michael Jordan .

The comparison to diabetics isn't really fair since they can't produce insulin. In theory it would be reasonable to say that you could get the same result from simply eating to release more. The reason is that the dosages most bodybuilders use are well within physiological ranges. You can easily eat to release much more insulin than what a typical 10IU shot provides. You can release the equivalent of 10IU by eating a candy bar. This is not the case with steroids or even GH where the dosage is out of physiological range. This is the "mystery" of why some report amazing results with it. Is it simply because they eat more on it or is it doing something else? Much higher dosages? Because I didn't find it effective and I've seen a few dozen guys use it and they didn't get the 30lb increase either.

[BEAST 8692]

The comparison to diabetics isn't really fair since they can't produce insulin. In theory it would be reasonable to say that you could get the same result from simply eating to release more. The reason is that the dosages most bodybuilders use are well within physiological ranges. You can easily eat to release much more insulin than what a typical 10IU shot provides. You can release the equivalent of 10IU by eating a candy bar. This is not the case with steroids or even GH where the dosage is out of physiological range. This is the "mystery" of why some report amazing results with it. Is it simply because they eat more on it or is it doing something else? Much higher dosages? Because I didn't find it effective and I've seen a few dozen guys use it and they didn't get the 30lb increase either.

yes, you're in a better position than me if you have actually experimented with the drugs but, from what people have told me, this is often the case and it needs to be used in conjunction with the other drugs you've stated, otherwise you'll just get fat.

unfortunately, there are not too many gurus (those with the most research) that will give you the heads up without getting paid well.

Milos will tell you that, even at his advanced age (when hormone levels naturally decrease) he is able to mainatin ripped condition at 255lbs with just insulin and no hormones whatsoever. this doesn't make any sense at all to me and, frankly, i don't believe him, but who am i to give the absolute answer on that. maybe in 20 years time the truth will be available to everyone free such as how devout Christian ('i would never lie, honest') Larry Scott did actually take dianabol and other steroids in the 50s and 60s and there was a little more to those 20" guns than blairs milk powder and preacher curls.

no top level athlete is going to just give you info like this for free, not while other top athletes are scrambling to pay top dollar for it. most likely you will be fed bs as always with some underlying hype about their latest snake oil invention.

[TooPowerful4u]

The reason is that the dosages most bodybuilders use are well within physiological ranges. You can easily eat to release much more insulin than what a typical 10IU shot provides. You can release the equivalent of 10IU by eating a candy bar. This is not the case with steroids or even GH where the dosage is out of physiological range. This is the "mystery" of why some report amazing results with it. Is it simply because they eat more on it or is it doing something else? Much higher dosages? Because I didn't find it effective and I've seen a few dozen guys use it and they didn't get the 30lb increase either.

10iu can be duplicated with a candy bar?  You sure bout that one bud? haha id like to hear why you believe that

People grow on slin because they use it correctly.  The right time, the right dose, the right type, with the right nutrients.  Il throw you a bone.....

Body builds a tolerance to exo. slin very fast.  Answer?  EOD dosing.  Now this can and should be done multiple times per day for optimal results (god i hope some kid doesnt kill himself with this advice).  Optimal times are preworkout meal (load the muscles full for the pending workout), and post workout (reload muscles full for anabolic, hydrated environment).  It also has SHBG lowering effects, hence freeing up more test (natural or otherwise) able to be utalized for growth while the slin remains in your system.

[England_1]

You can release the equivalent of 10IU by eating a candy bar.

 

If this were true, you would probably go into a coma.

[Matt C]

Milos is 255 and hard at almost 44 years of age.  Amazing.

[Van_Bilderass]

10iu can be duplicated with a candy bar?  You sure bout that one bud? haha id like to hear why you believe that

People grow on slin because they use it correctly.  The right time, the right dose, the right type, with the right nutrients.  Il throw you a bone.....

Body builds a tolerance to exo. slin very fast.  Answer?  EOD dosing.  Now this can and should be done multiple times per day for optimal results (god i hope some kid doesnt kill himself with this advice).  Optimal times are preworkout meal (load the muscles full for the pending workout), and post workout (reload muscles full for anabolic, hydrated environment).  It also has SHBG lowering effects, hence freeing up more test (natural or otherwise) able to be utalized for growth while the slin remains in your system.

You can laugh all you want but your understanding of drugs is very poor as I've seen on promuscle. Think about this, bro: injectable insulin is made to mimic endogenous insulin. Diabetics inject differing amounts of insulin, true, but most don't have to eat an absolutely massive amount to cover 10IU's. We both know some bodybuilders can get away with only 5 grams of sugar per IU to cover that amount. Now how many carbs does a candy bar contain? And yes, this specific candy bar example comes from a study where insulin output was measured in healthy folks and then compared to the levels achieved with Humalog. Again, drugs like Humalog were made to mimic what a healthy person would release naturally.

And tolerance doesn't necessarily develop very fast. If it did it would stop working very fast in diabetics. You know Milos also said he uses it each and every workout when in serious training. And I'm sure he doesn't rest every other day. No, it's twice daily workouts even. Maybe you can give your "optimal" advice to Milos. 

And the SHBG thing is pretty irrelevant to a person on anabolics. SHBG is already low if you take steroids.

If this were true, you would probably go into a coma.

Why would it? The sugar in the candy bar covers the insulin released.

[pellius]

Hmm, few things that got me thinking. Van, when you say that the comparison to diabetics isn't fair I think that's only the case with a type one diabetic that doesn't produce any insulin naturally and not in the case of a type 2 diabetic that develops insulin resistance (from a life time of constantly eating and snacking and always having insulin in their system). Since a type 2 diabetic requires more insulin than a healthy person to process a given unit of carbohydrate then it seems to me that for a healthy person to inject himself with insulin after eating only seems to be mimicking the condition of a type 2 diabetic, i.e., using more insulin than is normal to process a given unit of carbohydrate.

Also, when TooPowerful says that the optimal times to take insulin is pre and post workout for the load and reload effect again this comes back to my original question as to why you need addition insulin for that purpose. If you have a normal, healthy pancreas wouldn't ingesting a given amount of carbs, whether 50 grams or a 150 grams still be "loaded/reloaded" with the insulin you naturally produce? Are you implying  that given a certain amount of carbs ingested a person runs out of insulin and the carbs/glucose doesn't get processed? Does the insulin shot simply take over the job of the pancreas and gives it a "rest" so that there's less of a metabolic cost to glucose processing resulting in more anabolism as some have suggested? I've also read that shooting additional insulin speeds up the shuttling of nutrients. But so what. What real world difference would it make if the nutrients get to your cells a little bit faster? It's not like you're going to start building muscle on the spot.

Milos?

[muscularny]

milos shed some light please :-)

[DK II]

Milos, speak on this!

[sarahdunlap]

I remember reading an article on the ketogenic diet using insulin... in some anabolic review.  I knew a kid who tried it, got freaky shredded and won his show (amatuer)--  but he did say that he was driving and passed out into a coma crashed his car.  Insulin is kinda foriegn for me...  I had a training partner that used it and said the best kind was the short acting.   I don't know what the high limits are to insulin are in the human body but obviously it can be increased beyond natural capasity (which is why a bodybuilder would use it-duh).  I doubt the claim that insulin alone can get anyone shredded because insulin is for gaining muscle, along with water... seeing that for every carbohydrate you eat you hold 3 molecules of water.  If you break down the systems, your question can be answered...  I've trained will top level pro's that take it very seriously as a part of their regimine. 

but that's all I can really add on this one.

[musclecenter]

Milos, speak on this!

According to Milos's web:
He is in Italy's seminar now and will be back monday - 11/26/07

[DK II]

According to Milos's web:
He is in Italy's seminar now and will be back monday - 11/26/07

謝謝!!

[Bobby]

Milos is 255 and hard at almost 44 years of age.  Amazing.

what are you saying? are you suggesting that getting it up is a rare ocurrence at that age?

[TooPowerful4u]

You can laugh all you want but your understanding of drugs is very poor as I've seen on promuscle. Think about this, bro: injectable insulin is made to mimic endogenous insulin. Diabetics inject differing amounts of insulin, true, but most don't have to eat an absolutely massive amount to cover 10IU's. We both know some bodybuilders can get away with only 5 grams of sugar per IU to cover that amount. Now how many carbs does a candy bar contain? And yes, this specific candy bar example comes from a study where insulin output was measured in healthy folks and then compared to the levels achieved with Humalog. Again, drugs like Humalog were made to mimic what a healthy person would release naturally.

And tolerance doesn't necessarily develop very fast. If it did it would stop working very fast in diabetics. You know Milos also said he uses it each and every workout when in serious training. And I'm sure he doesn't rest every other day. No, it's twice daily workouts even. Maybe you can give your "optimal" advice to Milos. 

And the SHBG thing is pretty irrelevant to a person on anabolics. SHBG is already low if you take steroids.
Why would it? The sugar in the candy bar covers the insulin released.

lol well well well... is it now?  While your post is intelligent and alot of what you said is true......

Yes, exo slin mimics endo....but at what dose?  You really think your body can release a dose comperable to 10iu?  Go grab a glucometer and youl figure this one out quick.  Many that i know already have done this.  One of my best friends is a diabetic for the last 10yrs that iv known him.  I know how it works, both in bodybuilders and diabetics. Yes, Milos probably uses it every workout, but at what doses, and how often does he increase them?  You have NO idea what dose he might be using, so you missed that little point.  Your body can and will build a tolerance.  The more slin you use, the less sensative your cells become to it by decreasing the amount of insulin receptors on the cell membrane.  Look it up, im sure you can find some info on it if you do a teeny tiny tad bit of foot work.  Last but not least.... SHBG is ABSOLUTELY important as to getting more from any test floating through your system (exo or endo).  Regardless of how insignificant you THINK this is, it will have at least some effect at increasing the potency of your test which will = more growth.  Inches add up to miles, so dont disregard the smaller things.  20 small things can add up to a few big things!

[triple_pickle]

Milos is 255 and hard at almost 44 years of age.  Amazing.

how do you know that?   

[Bobby]

maybe milos taught him how to spoon squat ?

[BEAST 8692]

lol well well well... is it now?  While your post is intelligent and alot of what you said is true......

Yes, exo slin mimics endo....but at what dose?  You really think your body can release a dose comperable to 10iu?  Go grab a glucometer and youl figure this one out quick.  Many that i know already have done this.  One of my best friends is a diabetic for the last 10yrs that iv known him.  I know how it works, both in bodybuilders and diabetics. Yes, Milos probably uses it every workout, but at what doses, and how often does he increase them?  You have NO idea what dose he might be using, so you missed that little point.  Your body can and will build a tolerance.  The more slin you use, the less sensative your cells become to it by decreasing the amount of insulin receptors on the cell membrane.  Look it up, im sure you can find some info on it if you do a teeny tiny tad bit of foot work.  Last but not least.... SHBG is ABSOLUTELY important as to getting more from any test floating through your system (exo or endo).  Regardless of how insignificant you THINK this is, it will have at least some effect at increasing the potency of your test which will = more growth.  Inches add up to miles, so dont disregard the smaller things.  20 small things can add up to a few big things!

TooPowerful4u, i'm assuming that you have used insulin and perhaps done some extensive experimenting yourself.

can you relate some of your experiences with it, positive or negative? most of the people i've talked to just got fat (although they ate a shit load), dosages etc and other drugs would be good.

big shout out to sarahdunlap. is that the Sarah Dunlap, one of the greatest women bodybuilders of all time?

[Mars]

big shout out to sarahdunlap. is that the Sarah Dunlap, one of the greatest women bodybuilders of all time?

oh brother..