Why is insulin so effective in adding muscle mass?

[FrenchFrie]

i have no clue wtf ur talking bout.







(lol).

[DK II]

i have no clue wtf ur talking bout.







(lol).

Me neither, which proves the point you made and the point i made.

[GoneAway]

no one was specific during the 60s and 70s. they would take dballs and nilevar all day like they were popping peanuts, for example, and when in doubt they'd take a handful more. arnold was no different from everything i've read, but good luck finding any info on exactly what he took because i seriously doubt he'd even know, even if he or anyone else in his tight group would tell you. sure as fuck, nobody else is going to tell you. how would they know all anyone has ever done when it comes to arnold's drug regimen is guess, based on what was available at the time and what everyone was doing.

no one knew what dosages to take. it was entirely hit or miss, but if you even look at this logically (take a good hard look at the obsessive, narcisistic screwballs that compete) if an 18" arm is good, a 19" arm is better and a 20" arm is mr olympia correlates with, if 100mg dball pd is good, 200mgs is better....no one knew because there was absolutely no science to it. the medical community were still adamantly testifying that steroids didn't make you bigger and stronger so you know the bbers weren't listening to them.

if you were preparing for a contest that was going to make or break you and you were getting dianabol, test, deca, primobolan, winnie, etc dirt cheap and so and so told you that joe big guy was taking this much, now wouldn't you be prepared to take a little more and then a little more and...meanwhile, you're staving yourself to senility on your 3rd and last can of tuna for the day and the question arises in your head, "should i take more or not?" HELL YEAH! remember, they were perfectly legal and nobody even knew about sides back then. i mean, you're going to smoke a pack a day cigarettes, drink a bottle of jacks, snort coke all day, inject meth but you're not going to take more anabolics?

did anyone inject in the mid 60's - 70's?

seems like the most commonly used drugs of that time were winny, promo, dbol, deca and test... also, people say injectables are worse for ur liver, but arnie used them for about 12 years for bbing, longer for movies (unless he used injectables), and 99% of the guys back then were likely popping pills like candy, but they all seem to live to very old (ala reg park, mike katz, larry scott, serge nubret, etc). so they cant be too bad.

[GetBigOrDieTrying]

You make a good point about not having to know how electricity works to apply it in the practical world. How many people know how their computer or even their cars work yet use them everyday. I guess when you are dealing with your body and health it puts a different perspective on things. Also, there's a reason that many athletes with little formal education on nutrition, drugs and medicine could run rings around a Harvard trained physician in these specialized areas. They're just passionately interested on the subject and have a vested interest. So when  someone says an NO based product like SuperPump or NO-Xplode will do this or that, we ask why and does it make sense. Whether creatine works for you or not the reasoning behind is sound. Anabolic hormones effectiveness are also fairly easy to understand despite years of sincere denial by the medical community. This is what we are interested in and this is what we do. I have a friend who knows everything about every prohormone on the market. Just likes researching and reading about the stuff and trying to understand the nuts and bolts. Same thing here. I want to know how my lap top works. I want to know how my car runs.

So when you say that exo insulin makes the process much more efficient I ask myself what do you mean by more efficient. If you naturally need say (figures and units are arbitrary) 1 unit of natural insulin to process 10 units of carbs what happens when you now have an extra 50 units of insulin to process that same 10 units of carbs? What happens? Does it get processed faster? Does it get push "deeper" into the cell? And why would it make any difference? Those 10 units of carbs are going to be process by a healthy individual whether or not he pins himself with slin.

Not trying to be a dick but just picking the brains on this board hopefully leading toward a better understanding.

YOu question is in depth have a look at this http://www.steroid.com/Insulin.php

[Triple-H_2005]

people say injectables are worse for ur liver,

Got that one eactly backward, boss.  Orals cycle through the liver twice.  Additionally, orals like Anadrol and Halotestin are far more toxic than injectables.

[BEAST 8692]

did anyone inject in the mid 60's - 70's?

seems like the most commonly used drugs of that time were winny, promo, dbol, deca and test... also, people say injectables are worse for ur liver, but arnie used them for about 12 years for bbing, longer for movies (unless he used injectables), and 99% of the guys back then were likely popping pills like candy, but they all seem to live to very old (ala reg park, mike katz, larry scott, serge nubret, etc). so they cant be too bad.

yes, of course there were injectables back then. injectable testosterone has been available since about 1937 when it was invented. btw, the inventers, who were from germany/austria, won a nobel peace prize for the discovery. apparently test didn't have the negative connotations back then (the negative connotations are PURELY AND ABSOLUTELY DUE TO THE SPECTRE OF CHEATING which is a really really evil thing to do, don't you know )

you've got it ass about face with the 'injectables vs orals' effect on the liver. it is in fact the orals that may cause harm to the liver.

you have to understand, btw, that i wasn't around in the 60s and 70s and i'm obviously going by what i've read and what has been told to me by bbers that used them, but revisionist history is always a riot to me. everyone in the past were good as gold and evil didn't come to the world until...'nowadays' .

from what i've been told, back in the 60s - 70s no one gave a flying fuck about steroids. dianabol and nilevar was as common as protein drinks and just as available. in fact, if you were a novice, there wasn't a hell of a lot of reason to use injectables. dianabol was considered the rolls royce for mass so why inject? save that for the competitors who were into any advantage they could get ie primo and winny were less androgenic and thus used for less bloat pre-contest time .

the only issue, in fact was with weider.

you see weider wanted to keep making a shit load of money from his exorbitantly over priced milk powder and tablets (even chewables ). there was no possible way he was going to make money from steroids because he didn't supply them, the pharmacy did and, apart from anything else, they were far cheaper than weider's supplements and they actually worked.

for that reason, weider was more than willing to embellish the 'dangers of steroids' and pimped his bbers with enthusiastic endorsements of his 'all natural
anabolic megapacs' , weight gainers and other shit a healthy alternative (yeah right, if you wanted to spend more time in the bathroom than in the gym).

now i don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but supplement companies do seem to have a fair amount of political power and have been known to, all of a sudden, expound on the 'dangers' of certain drugs in favour of their supplements.

well, steroids was ripe for the kicking because using steroids was...cheating (oooha, just gives ya chills, don't it?). besides, 'who the fuck are these overblown hedonist narcisitic bbers to be using drugs for vanity.' all those steroids turn them into dangerous sexual predators 'who can't get enough'. lock up yer daughters and girlfriends, there's a steroid using bber on the loose.

even the medical association and scientist got in on the propoganda machine ie "steroids don't build muscle and certainly don't improve athletic performance." "hell, why would ya want to get big ugly bulky muscles anyway? you'll be muscle bound and cut from the team."

anyway, ill finish. weider is now extremely rich and getting richer, bbers are still endorcing supplements and possessing/using steroids is evil, worse than murder.

[pellius]

YOu question is in depth have a look at this http://www.steroid.com/Insulin.php

Thanks for the link! Definitely sheds some light and a better understanding on the subject. I read it real quick since I'm off to work but will read it again when I get back.

Thanks again!

[GoneAway]

Got that one eactly backward, boss.  Orals cycle through the liver twice.  Additionally, orals like Anadrol and Halotestin are far more toxic than injectables.

oops, that was a typo. meant it the other way around. by more toxic, any specific doses for orals like dbol and deca (for example) that should be avoided for health reasons?

yes, of course there were injectables back then. injectable testosterone has been available since about 1937 when it was invented. btw, the inventers, who were from germany/austria, won a nobel peace prize for the discovery. apparently test didn't have the negative connotations back then (the negative connotations are PURELY AND ABSOLUTELY DUE TO THE SPECTRE OF CHEATING which is a really really evil thing to do, don't you know )

you've got it ass about face with the 'injectables vs orals' effect on the liver. it is in fact the orals that may cause harm to the liver.

you have to understand, btw, that i wasn't around in the 60s and 70s and i'm obviously going by what i've read and what has been told to me by bbers that used them, but revisionist history is always a riot to me. everyone in the past were good as gold and evil didn't come to the world until...'nowadays' .

from what i've been told, back in the 60s - 70s no one gave a flying fuck about steroids. dianabol and nilevar was as common as protein drinks and just as available. in fact, if you were a novice, there wasn't a hell of a lot of reason to use injectables. dianabol was considered the rolls royce for mass so why inject? save that for the competitors who were into any advantage they could get ie primo and winny were less androgenic and thus used for less bloat pre-contest time .

the only issue, in fact was with weider.

you see weider wanted to keep making a shit load of money from his exorbitantly over priced milk powder and tablets (even chewables ). there was no possible way he was going to make money from steroids because he didn't supply them, the pharmacy did and, apart from anything else, they were far cheaper than weider's supplements and they actually worked.

for that reason, weider was more than willing to embellish the 'dangers of steroids' and pimped his bbers with enthusiastic endorsements of his 'all natural
anabolic megapacs' , weight gainers and other shit a healthy alternative (yeah right, if you wanted to spend more time in the bathroom than in the gym).

now i don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but supplement companies do seem to have a fair amount of political power and have been known to, all of a sudden, expound on the 'dangers' of certain drugs in favour of their supplements.

well, steroids was ripe for the kicking because using steroids was...cheating (oooha, just gives ya chills, don't it?). besides, 'who the fuck are these overblown hedonist narcisitic bbers to be using drugs for vanity.' all those steroids turn them into dangerous sexual predators 'who can't get enough'. lock up yer daughters and girlfriends, there's a steroid using bber on the loose.

even the medical association and scientist got in on the propoganda machine ie "steroids don't build muscle and certainly don't improve athletic performance." "hell, why would ya want to get big ugly bulky muscles anyway? you'll be muscle bound and cut from the team."

anyway, ill finish. weider is now extremely rich and getting richer, bbers are still endorcing supplements and possessing/using steroids is evil, worse than murder.

i think the 'it wont improve ur athletic performance' is out the window now. lol but yeah, supplement companies make a killing from naive teens and guys wanting to get big to get the women. when i think seriously about using drugs, im probably gonna buy one of those steroid handbooks. i think there is a yearly updated one, which lists the drugs and info about them. very interested in what guys in the 70's were using, particularly arnold, for obvious reasons.

[Van_Bilderass]

YOu question is in depth have a look at this http://www.steroid.com/Insulin.php

Took a quick look and recognize some of the studies referenced. Like the 2nd one. http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/274/6/E1067?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=insulin+concentrations+1%2C000-fold+&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1134677324826_4651&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1

Take a look at the dosages used and method of delivery.  And this,

Insulin clearly stimulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis in vitro. Surprisingly, this effect has been difficult to reproduce in vivo.

And

It has been suggested that a stimulation of protein synthesis in vivo has been difficult to demonstrate in humans because basal insulin has already maximally stimulated protein synthesis. Three observations suggest that this may not be the case. First, in the current study, very high insulin concentrations do further stimulate protein synthesis.

Studies like this aren't very relevant IMO since, like I said before, bodybuilders use insulin in physiological concentrations.

[BEAST 8692]

oops, that was a typo. meant it the other way around. by more toxic, any specific doses for orals like dbol and deca (for example) that should be avoided for health reasons?

i think the 'it wont improve ur athletic performance' is out the window now. lol but yeah, supplement companies make a killing from naive teens and guys wanting to get big to get the women. when i think seriously about using drugs, im probably gonna buy one of those steroid handbooks. i think there is a yearly updated one, which lists the drugs and info about them. very interested in what guys in the 70's were using, particularly arnold, for obvious reasons.

yes, i do think it would be a good idea for you to buy a good handbook so as to make an educated decision at the very least. one thing you'll learn is that deca is not an oral.

as for arnold. it's all very well that people wish to look like him but you are not alone. i'm guessing pretty much every male person has wanted to look like arnold at one time or another. it might help you to know that, of all the bbers competing during arnold's time, only one looked like arnold. i'll let you figure out which one...

seriously, take a look at yourself in the mirror sans clothes...now imagine what you would look like if your muscles were bigger...that's what you'll look like if/when you build your body by whatever means.

arnold took lots of dianabol, nilevar, primobolan, test...i've also been told he did a lot of site injection, but whatever he did, i guarantee you, it was nothing secretive or that wasn't been done by a million other guys that happened to look nothing like arnold.

genetics are already there bud. put it this way, take a look at arnold when he was about 19 and living in austria. did he really gain much size when he came to usa? or did he just refine what he already had?

how much actual muscle size did shawn ray gain throughout his career and how much different did he look between 1983 and 1993?

now, if genetic freaks like arnold and shawn ray only gain so much muscle and cause so much body change year to year, then what the hell does joe average think he's going to do?

you need to do a reality check first and foremost before you start worrying about what you're intending to put into your body ie how much muscle do you want to add to your frame, how you think added muscle tissue will look on your frame, why do you want to add this muscle, what do you hope to gain/lose, is your primary objective to add a lot of mass, refine what you have or, like most of the male population 'add muscle and lose fat' (as if that one was as simple as it sounds).

there is, however, one thing i can absolutely 100% guarantee you without even seeing you, you WILL NOT look like arnold or any other bber, just you with various combinations and compositions of tissues on you.

[Milos_Sarcev]

As I understand it, insulin shuttles nutrients into the cells. So, depending on insulin sensitivity, if you eat x amount of carbs your pancreas produces y amount of insulin. And if you eat x + 10x of carbs you will produce y + 10y of insulin. So, assuming you're healthy, your body will always produce sufficient amounts of insulin to process the food that you eat. The more food you eat the more insulin you produce. So how does adding addition insulin have any effect except perhaps suppress your own production? I mean, if you eat x amount of carbs why would having 100x amount of insulin in your system have any anabolic effect?

Well - IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT - answer will come

[sgt. d]

This Milos guy scares me

[pellius]

Took a quick look and recognize some of the studies referenced. Like the 2nd one. http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/274/6/E1067?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=insulin+concentrations+1%2C000-fold+&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1134677324826_4651&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1

Take a look at the dosages used and method of delivery.  And this,

And

Studies like this aren't very relevant IMO since, like I said before, bodybuilders use insulin in physiological concentrations.

VanB, what do you mean by physiological concentrations?

[BEAST 8692]

VanB, what do you mean by physiological concentrations?

not attempting to answer for VanB, but, imo, the big factor is that there has NEVER been a study done with bodybuilding or anabolic intentions.

the only studies known are those done by the bbers themselves (or their gurus) through trial, error and observations made. experienced insulin using pro com bbers would appear to be in a perfect position to advise on this very purpose due to the fact that they are the individuals with the greatest motivation ie literally their livelihood/competitive status DEPENDS directly on their response to peds.

put it this way, to this date (some 70 years after their inception) i am not aware of any formal study on the application of androgenic anabolic steroids for the purpose of bbing competition (probably the closest to a formal study was pete grymkowski's experiment). the exact same situation exists for insulin usage for anabolic/bbing purposes.

consequently, there is NO scientitific/medical recommendation for an appropriate use of anabolic steroids/other peds for bbing competition ie the competitive bbers themselves (or their gurus) have the largest vested interest and the further up the ladder you go ie top flight pro bbers have the greatest vested interest (said livelihood/competitive status) and therefore are the best advisers.

it naturally follows that the gurus are, perhaps, the very top of the line on ped advice since they are able to literally become the scientist ie they are able to analyse results from experiements done with numerous bbers (lab rats) ie they can be subjective with their analysis and have more lab rats to experiment with.

this is the actual reason why pro bbers have their 'trainer/nutritionist/guru' employed to advise them and also why you will NEVER get up to date info from any of the aforementioned via the internet ie if it was available for free why on earth would pro bbers (who make their livelihood from this very information) impart it to anyone and everyone when they pay good money for it. add to this the fact that if their competitors actually learn their secrets, then they have to go looking deeper (and pay more) for the competitive edge. add to this the legal issues involved (no one wants a knock on the door from members of the dea because one of their officers struck a gold mine on the web). add to that the potential earnings for said guru for sale of food supplements that guru promises will have the same effects as peds (hello Milos).

 

[Van_Bilderass]

VanB, what do you mean by physiological concentrations?

An insulin level that is within normal limits for a healthy person. Like I said before, shooting 10IU of insulin doesn't cause wildly supraphysiological (abnormal) insulin levels. That study infused insulin at one thousand times of basal, and it was infused into the forearm along with amino acids. Therefore a study like that can't be used to support someone's theory that shooting insulin causes increased protein synthesis.

[Van_Bilderass]

not attempting to answer for VanB, but, imo, the big factor is that there has NEVER been a study done with bodybuilding or anabolic intentions.

the only studies known are those done by the bbers themselves (or their gurus) through trial, error and observations made. experienced insulin using pro com bbers would appear to be in a perfect position to advise on this very purpose due to the fact that they are the individuals with the greatest motivation ie literally their livelihood/competitive status DEPENDS directly on their response to peds.

put it this way, to this date (some 70 years after their inception) i am not aware of any formal study on the application of androgenic anabolic steroids for the purpose of bbing competition (probably the closest to a formal study was pete grymkowski's experiment). the exact same situation exists for insulin usage for anabolic/bbing purposes.

consequently, there is NO scientitific/medical recommendation for an appropriate use of anabolic steroids/other peds for bbing competition ie the competitive bbers themselves (or their gurus) have the largest vested interest and the further up the ladder you go ie top flight pro bbers have the greatest vested interest (said livelihood/competitive status) and therefore are the best advisers.

it naturally follows that the gurus are, perhaps, the very top of the line on ped advice since they are able to literally become the scientist ie they are able to analyse results from experiements done with numerous bbers (lab rats) ie they can be subjective with their analysis and have more lab rats to experiment with.

this is the actual reason why pro bbers have their 'trainer/nutritionist/guru' employed to advise them and also why you will NEVER get up to date info from any of the aforementioned via the internet ie if it was available for free why on earth would pro bbers (who make their livelihood from this very information) impart it to anyone and everyone when they pay good money for it. add to this the fact that if their competitors actually learn their secrets, then they have to go looking deeper (and pay more) for the competitive edge. add to this the legal issues involved (no one wants a knock on the door from members of the dea because one of their officers struck a gold mine on the web). add to that the potential earnings for said guru for sale of food supplements that guru promises will have the same effects as peds (hello Milos).

 

I want to make clear that I'm not saying insulin use, as prescribed by guys like Milos, doesn't result in bigger bodybuilders. It's just a wanking exercise as to the why.

I know Milos definitely thinks he knows exactly why.... hell, he claims he taught the AMA that diabetics need 10g of sugar per IU of insulin injected LMFAO Now his "research" is in medical textbooks 

According to Milos, one just needs to "THINK and the answer is there" 

Another expert with supposed medical training (Dave Palumbo) claims insulin only works in, and is needed by, "insulin undersecreters" 

[BEAST 8692]

I want to make clear that I'm not saying insulin use, as prescribed by guys like Milos, doesn't result in bigger bodybuilders. It's just a wanking exercise as to the why.

I know Milos definitely thinks he knows exactly why.... hell, he claims he taught the AMA that diabetics need 10g of sugar per IU of insulin injected LMFAO Now his "research" is in medical textbooks 

According to Milos, one just needs to "THINK and the answer is there" 

 

this is why i love this site, because there are intelligent people discerning enough to understand the difference between megalomania, fraud and simple common dog fuck.

beats me Van, but apparently Milos' 9 year old daughter knows exactly where to find all of this information from her primary school text books.

"(puts hand up) excuse me mrs bloggs, but if 10 grams of sugar is required per unit of insulin administered by a 200lb shredded bber, how many grams of sugar is needed per unit of insulin in a 350lb bber with 20% body fat? i can't seem to find the answer in this dr seuss hand book???"

 

[Van_Bilderass]

this is why i love this site, because there are intelligent people discerning enough to understand the difference between megalomania, fraud and simple common dog fuck.

beats me Van, but apparently Milos' 9 year old daughter knows exactly where to find all of this information from her primary school text books.

"(puts hand up) excuse me mrs bloggs, but if 10 grams of sugar is required per unit of insulin administered by a 200lb shredded bber, how many grams of sugar is needed per unit of insulin in a 350lb bber with 20% body fat? i can't seem to find the answer in this dr seuss hand book???"

 

I never listen to someone who can't ever say "I don't know". Bodybuilding is full of guru's who have all the answers. You need that type of attitude to attract a large following of feeble minded sheep. Most people don't want to hear their guru say "I don't know".

[flinstones1]

bump for an awesome fucking thread. Especially the part where Van talks about 10iu hardly being a supraphysiological level of insulin I found that suprising.

[Coach is Back!]

Unless someone on here is a board certified endocrinologist they should STFU about insulin. PERIOD!

[unrageable]

« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2007, 03:52:22 AM »
   Reply with quoteQuote


« Reply #93 on: Today September 30, 2011 at 11:27:05 PM »

[pellius]

Looks like someone has been going through some very old posts. But here we are, 4 years later, and I still don't know how injecting insulin increases muscle mass. And I don't think an endocrinologist knows either. I once asked my endo and he just told me, "I thought they used steroids to get big. Why would they use insulin unless they are a diabetic." But the guy is like 70 years old and doesn't really follow bodybuilding or any strength related sports.

[closeline]

Looks like someone has been going through some very old posts. But here we are, 4 years later, and I still don't know how injecting insulin increases muscle mass. And I don't think an endocrinologist knows either. I once asked my endo and he just told me, "I thought they used steroids to get big. Why would they use insulin unless they are a diabetic." But the guy is like 70 years old and doesn't really follow bodybuilding or any strength related sports.

exogen insulin " is reported" to transport nutrients faster/more directly into muscle cells than endogen insulin wich should frist transport nutrients into the liver storage cells and only after that into muscle


but i m against inulin usage in sports so i don t care HOW EXACTLY THE MECHANISM WORKS WICH FUCKS UP THOSE RETARD S BODYS

[pellius]

exogen insulin " is reported" to transport nutrients faster/more directly into muscle cells than endogen insulin wich should frist transport nutrients into the liver storage cells and only after that into muscle


but i m against inulin usage in sports so i don t care HOW EXACTLY THE MECHANISM WORKS WICH FUCKS UP THOSE RETARD S BODYS

Ok, it gets the nutrients in there faster. How much faster and so what? The nutrients gets in there one way or another. What difference does it make how fast? It can't be more than minutes, maybe 30-45 at the the most? It's just like when they tell say you should have a fast acting protein like whey isolate or hydrowhey and amino acids with simple sugars right after a workout during the (anabolic window) because the nutrients are absorbed and processed faster. OK, but does it really make a real world difference taking a whey isolate shake rather than eating some chicken, corn bread and bake beans like Coleman did?

And why would injecting insulin cause nutrients to go directly into the muscle and by pass the liver but your own insulin won't?

[dyslexic]

This Milos guy scares me

It's a marketing scheme...


This is how he builds his clientele.