For those that don't believe the bible is the word of God...

[OzmO]

To go to heaven?  No.  For the common good?  Yes.

Convenient.   

I'll post some NT verses tomorrow.  Paul can explain it better then I can. Good night, OzmO!

thanks, I'd appreciate that.  good night.   

[loco]

So what.

Jews in the old testament times murdered whole nations of children.   Same difference, other then you are convinced they were justified. 

No, they didn't.  And I was responding to smoke's post about witches, but here you go again talking about Children of the Corn.  Is that your best argument to every thread and post on getbig?

An din the Medievil times, Crusaders using the Church God let them establish in his name using his word, murdered millions.  Maybe 50 million according to the book of Martyrs.

Again, same difference, but with the Jews and Crusaders on a much larger scale.

So what?  Is that the best argument you skeptics have, always living in the past? 

Yes, Christians have committed grave sins in the name of Christ, and those shameful misrepresentations of the gospel have made many people fearful of, and even repulsed by, the church. But Christians have been called to serve the oppressed, proclaim freedom for the captives, bring healing to the sick, to seek justice, to love mercy, to walk humbly, and to bring good news of "great joy." And by God's grace, many are living out that calling today.

[Necrosis]

No, they didn't.  And I was responding to smoke's post about witches, but here you go again talking about Children of the Corn.  Is that your best argument to every thread and post on getbig?

So what?  Is that the best argument you skeptics have, always living in the past? 

Yes, Christians have committed grave sins in the name of Christ, and those shameful misrepresentations of the gospel have made many people fearful of, and even repulsed by, the church. But Christians have been called to serve the oppressed, proclaim freedom for the captives, bring healing to the sick, to seek justice, to love mercy, to walk humbly, and to bring good news of "great joy." And by God's grace, many are living out that calling today.

how can you preach love when your telling others that if they dont repent to your god, they will burn in the most evil place ever devised(by a loving god no less) and burn for eternity. you have a contradiction on your hands it seems. first off why does repentance even matter, your just asking for forgiveness for nasty shit you've done. the only difference between you and another is you asked to be forgiven, doesnt change the fact that you still did negative things. sounds like god just wants to show his dominance to me.

[Hedgehog]

First, you throw around the word "liar" quite easily. That's not very respectful.

It's interesting how people on this board will call people disrespectful names and make all kinds of character assassinations. Even the hardest core gang members in Compton would not say something like that to my face.

You don't call HUNDREDS of EYEWITNESSES to His post resurrection life "evidence" How about even his enemies stating that His body is NOT in the "Guarded" tomb??? How about the testimony of the man His enemies "paid" to lie and say that His disciples stole His body???

No. I would call that testimonials.

Anyone I know would call it testimonials.

They could've been THOUSANDS. Still wouldn't made them "evidence". Still would be eyewitnesses giving testimonials.

You claim to have evidence of God.

If eye witnesses like these are your "evidence", I think we all can agree (except you maybe) that you do not have any evidence of God, you cannot prove that he exists, and that your belief in that you can, is a faulty one.

Time to re-evaluate your POV on God perhaps? And view a few episodes of "CSI" (they work a lot with "evidence" there)

How about the fact that there is NO "evidence" that He did NOT rise from the dead???

There is no "evidence"  either that Jesus didn't turn into 300 feet high giant, and walked around the world in 5 seconds. No "evidence" that Messiah didn't return for one night as Michael Jordan, and shot 63 one night against the Celtics.

 Should I have to disprove that?

The burden of proof is obviously on those who claims feats of Jesus.

It is only human to experience doubt. In fact, I think God allows that doubt to encourage deeper investigation. He knows that the deeper we investigate the more convinced we will become. That’s what happens, TRUTH is pretty convincing!

If there were evidence, there would be no room for doubt.

We have evidence that the world is round. We have evidence that babies are born from the mother. We have evidence that cars need fuel. We have evidence that 20 lbs of iron hurts more on the toe than 20 lbs of cotton would. That allows us to not doubt those facts.

We don't experience doubts in the above facts. Because we can see the evidence.

[OzmO]

No, they didn't.  And I was responding to smoke's post about witches, but here you go again talking about Children of the Corn.  Is that your best argument to every thread and post on getbig?

Hey buddy,  it's in your book of stories......Jews murdered children.  Deal with it.  You try and hide from it all you want, but it is what it is and you have admitted you'd have done the same thing or at least ordered it.  So stop trying to run away from it when i  draw a comparison to your attitude about witches who perform human sacrifice.  It's really no different becuase innocent people are being murdered in both cases.

So what?  Is that the best argument you skeptics have, always living in the past?

YOU are the one who brought the past up when talking about witches in Medieval times.  What?  Is it only OK for you to bring it up and not someone else?  When the truth gets to real you seem to get real squirmy loco.

Yes, Christians have committed grave sins in the name of Christ, and those shameful misrepresentations of the gospel have made many people fearful of, and even repulsed by, the church. But Christians have been called to serve the oppressed, proclaim freedom for the captives, bring healing to the sick, to seek justice, to love mercy, to walk humbly, and to bring good news of "great joy." And by God's grace, many are living out that calling today.

And that's good loco, and that can be added to the many good things "Christians" do, but don't for one moment think that invalidates all the bad things Christians do especially when it comes to judging others or stereotyping them such as you did with witches.

[loco]

Hey buddy,  it's in your book of stories......Jews murdered children.  Deal with it.  You try and hide from it all you want, but it is what it is and you have admitted you'd have done the same thing or at least ordered it.  So stop trying to run away from it when i  draw a comparison to your attitude about witches who perform human sacrifice.  It's really no different becuase innocent people are being murdered in both cases.

No, they didn't.  There is nothing to deal with.  There is nothing to hide from.

YOU are the one who brought the past up when talking about witches in Medieval times.  What?  Is it only OK for you to bring it up and not someone else?  When the truth gets to real you seem to get real squirmy loco.

You are the one who told me not to bring up ancient times.  Is it only OK for you to bring it up and not for someone else?

And that's good loco, and that can be added to the many good things "Christians" do, but don't for one moment think that invalidates all the bad things Christians do especially when it comes to judging others or stereotyping them such as you did with witches.

Where have I judged or stereotyped others? Show me.  Witches have raped and murdered in their rituals.  Deal with it.

[loco]

Convenient.   

Convenient for who?  Convenient or not, I didn't write the book.  At least I'm consistent, unlike those who pick and choose what is and what isn't God's word out of the Bible.  Now, that is convenient and inconsistent.

Acts 15:5
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
Acts 15:8-11
8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Acts 15:19-20
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Romans 3:21-22
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

[OzmO]

No, they didn't.  There is nothing to deal with.  There is nothing to hide from.

Running away from that ugly fact are we?  Trying our best not to cop to it are we?

Did they not kill the amalikites including there children?  .............there babies, their toddlers, their 3-4-5-6 year olds?

You are the one who told me not to bring up ancient times.  Is it only OK for you to bring it up and not for someone else?

that was a figure of speech, "don't even bring up ancient times...."  It was warning not to bring it up becuase i would show a caparison to the Jews murdering innocent children.

It's a language thing combined with "written" versus "spoken."

Where have I judged or stereotyped others? Show me.  Witches have raped and murdered in their rituals.  Deal with it.

If i were to say what you said about witches but instead replaced "witches" with "Christians" and replaced " human sacrifice" with stealing, manipulating and hypocrisy, would you not point out that it doesn't apply to all Christians or true Christiains?   I was only pointing out that the way you said it you were stereotyping by implication that ALL witches perform human sacrifice as you likely would have interpreted it if i said it about Christians.   

[OzmO]

Convenient for who?  Convenient or not, I didn't write the book.  At least I'm consistent, unlike those who pick and choose what is and what isn't God's word out of the Bible.  Now, that is convenient and inconsistent.

Loco, if the bible wasn't such a "book of stories" filled with man's word and filled with contradictions i wouldn't have to pick and choose.   

if the bible was really written by god it would beyond question in its wisdom.  Such as "thou shalt not kill."   It would be beyond question in it's doctrine and there wouldn't be soo many denominations who can justify till the end of time why their interpretations are correct and others are not.  If the bible was really written by God it would not have so many contradictions that demand lengthy fantastical explanations or excuses to preserve it's integrity.

however,

thanks for the versus.  I get to those later, got to cook dinner now.

[loco]

Running away from that ugly fact are we?  Trying our best not to cop to it are we?

Did they not kill the amalikites including there children?  .............there babies, their toddlers, their 3-4-5-6 year olds?

There is nothing to run away from.  Christians on this board, including myself have openly debated you over and over again about this.  That hardly qualifies as running away or hiding from it.

that was a figure of speech, "don't even bring up ancient times...."  It was warning not to bring it up becuase i would show a caparison to the Jews murdering innocent children.

It's a language thing combined with "written" versus "spoken."

If i were to say what you said about witches but instead replaced "witches" with "Christians" and replaced " human sacrifice" with stealing, manipulating and hypocrisy, would you not point out that it doesn't apply to all Christians or true Christiains?   I was only pointing out that the way you said it you were stereotyping by implication that ALL witches perform human sacrifice as you likely would have interpreted it if i said it about Christians. 

If you told me that Christians have done those things, I would not argue.  Christians have done those things.  Okay, now show me where have I judged or stereotyped others?

[Deicide]

There is nothing to run away from.  Christians on this board, including myself have openly debated you over and over again about this.  That hardly qualifies as running away or hiding from it.

If you told me that Christians have done those things, I would not argue.  Christians have done those things.  Okay, now show me where have I judged or stereotyped others?

Oh, this thread is still going on...

[OzmO]

There is nothing to run away from.  Christians on this board, including myself have openly debated you over and over again about this.  That hardly qualifies as running away or hiding from it.

this qualifies as running away from it:

......Jews murdered children.

No, they didn't.  There is nothing to deal with.  There is nothing to hide from.

that's denial, that's running away.   

If you told me that Christians have done those things, I would not argue.  Christians have done those things.  Okay, now show me where have I judged or stereotyped others?

I think we are having another one of our language issues.  It's OK i get your point.  I take back what i said. 

[OzmO]

Acts 15:5
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
Acts 15:8-11
8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Acts 15:19-20
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Romans 3:21-22
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

This doesn't really address what we were talking about.  He doesn't directly say you don't have to follow the laws of moses.  What he does say, it seems, is that your hearts are purified so you don't have to worry about it.  That pretty much means convenient or optional.  But I'm sure you could probably explain it better.

[loco]

This doesn't really address what we were talking about.  He doesn't directly say you don't have to follow the laws of moses.  What he does say, it seems, is that your hearts are purified so you don't have to worry about it.  That pretty much means convenient or optional.  But I'm sure you could probably explain it better.

What?  Yes it does directly say that.  Read it again, from the beginning.

Acts 15:5
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
Acts 15:8-11
8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Acts 15:19-20
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

[OzmO]

What?  Yes it does directly say that.  Read it again, from the beginning.

Acts 15:5
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
Acts 15:8-11
8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Acts 15:19-20
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Sorry still don't see it.

Where does God say you don't have to follow the laws of the OT?

And what i do see seems like it comes down to:  Optional

[loco]

Sorry still don't see it.

Where does God say you don't have to follow the laws of the OT?

And what i do see seems like it comes down to:  Optional

You are kidding.

[OzmO]

You are kidding.

nope.

Very vague.  please explain.

[loco]

nope.

Very vague.  please explain.

Early Jewish Christians said that Gentile Christians must be "required to obey the law of Moses."(Acts 15:5)

Then some of Jesus' 12 apostles said "No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we[Jewish Christians] are saved, just as they[Gentile Christians] are." (Acts 15:19-20)

Instead, they said, Gentile Christians must abstain:

1. "from food polluted by idols"
2. "from sexual immorality,
3. "from the meat of strangled animals"
4. "from blood", drinking blood that is.

In addition, Jesus said Christians should love one another, love God more than anything, and love their neighbor(including their enemies and including non-Christians) as they love themselves.  If you do that, you will fullfill the 10 commandments automatically anyway, and it is God who works in Christians "to will and to act according to his good purpose."(Philippians 2:13).

[OzmO]

Early Jewish Christians said that Gentile Christians must be "required to obey the law of Moses."(Acts 15:5)

Then some of Jesus' 12 apostles said "No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we[Jewish Christians] are saved, just as they[Gentile Christians] are." (Acts 15:19-20)

Instead, they said, Gentile Christians must abstain:

1. "from food polluted by idols"
2. "from sexual immorality,
3. "from the meat of strangled animals"
4. "from blood", drinking blood that is.

In addition, Jesus said Christians should love one another, love God more than anything, and love their neighbor(including their enemies and including non-Christians) as they love themselves.  If you do that, you will fullfill the 10 commandments automatically anyway, and it is God who works in Christians "to will and to act according to his good purpose."(Philippians 2:13).

So, none of the OT stuff, other than that applies to Christians?

[loco]

So, none of the OT stuff, other than that applies to Christians?

Such as?  And what you do mean by "applies"?  Please be more specific.

[OzmO]

Such as?  And what you do mean by "applies"?  Please be more specific.

All those things God said as do's and don'ts. 

[loco]

All those things God said as do's and don'ts. 

Since you are not being specific so that I can explain, maybe this will answer your question, or maybe not.  Judaism is God's old covenant with the Jews.  Christianity is God's new covenant with the Jews which was foretold in the Old Testament, but this time includes non-Jews, also as foretold in the Old Testament. 

So it is like saying hey, I gave you all those do's and don'ts to reveal my standards to you.  You were not able to keep all those do's and don'ts, not even out of fear of the penalty of death.  Now, through faith in Jesus Christ I will give you the Holy Spirit which will help you love me with everything you've got and to love other people as you love yourself.  In doing this, you will automatically fulfill the old do's and don'ts, and in doing so, you will be a blessing to those around you and you will bring others to me.

For example, the woman in the New Testament who had just committed adultery and the Jews wanted to stone her to death, then Jesus told them whoever is free of sin cast the first stone.  So they all left.  Then Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more.  So adultery is still a sin and we should still abstain from it, but we should not stone people to death for committing adultery.

[Necrosis]

Since you are not being specific so that I can explain, maybe this will answer your question, or maybe not.  Judaism is God's old covenant with the Jews.  Christianity is God's new covenant with the Jews which was foretold in the Old Testament, but this time includes non-Jews, also as foretold in the Old Testament. 

So it is like saying hey, I gave you all those do's and don'ts to reveal my standards to you.  You were not able to keep all those do's and don'ts, not even out of fear of the penalty of death.  Now, through faith in Jesus Christ I will give you the Holy Spirit which will help you love me with everything you've got and to love other people as you love yourself.  In doing this, you will automatically fulfill the old do's and don'ts, and in doing so, you will be a blessing to those around you and you will bring others to me.

For example, the woman in the New Testament who had just committed adultery and the Jews wanted to stone her to death, then Jesus told them whoever is free of sin cast the first stone.  So they all left.  Then Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more.  So adultery is still a sin and we should still abstain from it, but we should not stone people to death for committing adultery.

loco!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do you beleive in god?

[loco]

loco!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do you beleive in god?

usmoke, you ask me lots of questions to which you already know my answer.  What do you think?  I'm a "Bible thumping fundy."     

[The Freakshow]

So what do you think god thinks when she gives you head?

Did you really just ask me that???

I am not about to discuss details of the sexual relationship of me and my wife on a chat board.

That is totally inappropriate. The very fact that you would think that is okay speaks volumes about your moral character.

No wonder you try to deny there is a God.